Posted 30 June 2012 - 12:04 PM
"More fighting is more experience, but not more skill"
That's true. We're finally starting to agree on a few things here.
"fact homie, you can be in school for 8 years and still not be smarter than someone who went for 4 years"
True again, there are things like natural talent, intelligence, and the amount of work you put into it, that play a factor as well.
"more skill doesn't mean better, since skill is just a fraction of what determines a win in a real fight"
Again, true. And I've even said exactly that in one of my earlier posts. However, skill is one of the large factors, just like experience is. But ruthlessness, physical capabilities(strength, speed, etc.), and mental capabilities(intelligence being the primary one) are also factors with varying degree of importance. And some 'good' things can outweigh the 'bad'. For example, a skilled and experienced fighter can beat an unskilled and unexperienced, but stronger opponent.
"I train a lot, I do a lot of sparring which by definition I am more skilled than you"
Most likely true, I haven't done any regular training or sparring in quite a while.
"but in reality it could be that you knock me out fast, I doubt you train, but if we both did equally it would come down to pure power/speed and other physical aspects and not skill."
If we both trained equally, skill would still be a factor, as well as experience. Chances are that we don't know the exact same styles, that we don't have the exact same level of intelligence, etc. We don't have the same mindset, so I most likely get different things out of training than you do(skill-wise). It would also come down to strategy/tacticts, ruthlessness, etc. It's never about "pure power/speed and other physical aspects".
"Croc is not skilled at all, never has been,"
Not true, as I already pointed out, he is an experienced wrestler and street fighter.
"sure he is stronger, but ifI recall Batman uses his gadgets and tech almost as much if not more than him actually fighting Croc."
In dragonball, they use energy blasts almost as much, if not more, than actually fighting. Does that mean their fights don't count either?
"Count Recoome as he whooped him good, still counts."
Not so much. The only thing he did, was put an elbow in Recoome's stomach, then he(recoome) was down. That =/= a fight.
We can count it if you really want, but if we start counting every time Batman has even landed a punch on someone as a fight, then the numbers just start getting ridiculous.
"Also Goku has fought Pei Pei, Yajirobe (when he was small), and a few more, I count it all as you are trying to name his wins or fights, but you exclude most of them"
As I already said, I started counting from Raditz' arrival. And I haven't excluded any wins from that point. The reason that I started counting at that point, is that there are a lot of feats from DBZ(i.e. from Raditz' arrival and up) that contradict stuff that happened in DB(before Raditz' arrival). For example, Goku's strength in DB is impressive, with the rock pushing feat at the end of Roshi's training. While later on(when he is supposedly hundreds of times stronger than he was back then) he has trouble moving while wearing only 40 tons.
"Vegeta was a stalemate but Goku was the weaker opponent and if you can say that Batman beating Croc is legit than Goku having never fought someone like him was almost able to defeat him, plus that was the plot so that he can be motivated to train harder."
Batman has defeated Croc? Yes.
Goku defeated Vegeta? No.
simple as that.
"Again you say more skill equals better, when it's not true. Batman loses to the Joker until he uses his tech, does that mean more skilled?"
No, I haven't said that "more skill equals better".
I said that if you trained on your own, and I got formal training(for the same amount of time), then I would be better in terms of pure skill, i.e. then I would be more skilled. Which is true.
"Fights (in reference to your reply about Karate Kid)aren't just experience and skill it's also ability and Goku's abilities (minus chi) which means Karate Kid has no chi, would still be a human that is fighting a sayjin (which still has the ability you gain experience and become stronger with each fight. You forget to mention that Goku learns techs instantly and even if Karate Kid had the upper hand it would be for a few seconds"
I assume by "ability" you mean natural talent. And that's true. But when it comes to that, Karate Kid also has Goku beat. Karate Kid is... what, maybe 20 years old. And has mastered several hundred(if not thousand) styles. You don't react that level, that fast, without having talent in spades.
"The majority of his training is to become stronger which will allow his skills to be backed up by power, which if you don't know is a factor in a fight."
I assume you're talking about Goku here, in which case that's definitely true. Almost all of his training is purely focused on getting stronger, i.e. raising his power level, and learning new Ki techniques.
"Take Bruce Lee vs Anderson Silva, You can argue that Bruce is a better skilled fighter, but I can promise that SIlva would whomp on him"
Debatable. And definitely a debate I would be willing to take up. Bruce Lee is not just more skilled, he also has more natural talent, as well as other factors in his advantage.
"and Silva is probably more skilled as he has trained in something Bruce never did (BJJ) and he just is stronger and taller, more reach etc."
Bruce Lee was trained in Wing Chun, which is something that Silva never did. Bruce Lee studied a ton of different styles, incorporating things into Jeet Kune Do.
Silva also trained in Tae Kwon Do, which I believe you called "useless" earlier. He has also trained in Capoeira, which is even more useless than TKD.
If you're honestly saying(and believing) that Silva is more skilled than Bruce Lee, then I gotta say that your claim of knowledge about fighting/martial arts, is pretty much bull.
Silva is definitely good, but he's not that good.
"Oh and Thor, you say he is more skilled, but there is no proof that he has trained,"
Again, not true.
"There is no proof that he has actual skill. Beating Captain America is more of a one time thing, therefore if it hasn't happened often it really is just for that issue."
Thor losing his powers wasn't just for one issue, no.
Want proof of his skills, try reading the entire period where he had lost his powers. Or his fight against Beta Ray Bill, or one of his battles against the Frost Giants, or his fight against Desak(the Godslayer), or any number of his fights against opponents that are actually close to his own physical power.
"Your whole Place Goku in even footing is getting tiring, thats like saying put the Lion on even footing with a Cheetah, of course the Cheetah would be faster as he is evolved to be faster, it's not really fair to say that,"
I do that to make a comparison that is based on skill, instead of raw superior power.
If you take away Superman's powers, he would get his arse handed to him by the majority of street level characters, because they are simply better fighters.
Likewise, if you take away Goku's powers, he would lose in a straight up fight to Batman or Karate Kid. There are plenty of people that Goku would still defeat, because yes, he is a good fighter. He just isn't at the same level as the top fighters from Marvel and DC, that rely purely on their combat skills, unlike Goku who for a large part, relies on superior power to win his fights.
"Lastly I want to conclude that while I know what you are saying, you take all of DBZ literal and yet don't with Marvel and DC"
Not so much, I take DBZ, Marvel, DC, Star Wars, and any other universe, in the same way.
In DBZ, we are never directly told that the characters are highly skilled fighters. They use terms like "strong" and "powerful" instead. And for the most part, we are not given any real information about their training, but are left to spectulate.
In Marvel and DC, we are directly told that various characters are extremely skilled, and are even given details on their skills, and even information about what kind of training they have recieved.
In Star Wars, to use a different example, we are also directly told that various characters are highly skilled, and given information about what kind of training they've recieved, and details on their skills.
"meaning that you post one scan of Roshi saying I have nothing to teach you, but fail to recognize that or just don't want to acknowledge that DB is a martial arts anime, not a super hero cartoon that has a few martial artist."
So because it's a martial arts anime, "I have nothing to teach you" actually means something else? Not so much. It's a pretty direct statement.
After showing them methods to get stronger/faster/more powerful, as well as a few Ki techniques, he has nothing more to teach. No martial arts, no hand-to-hand combat skills, nothing that, in any way, can translate to actual combat skills outside of the DBZ universe.
"I get it, you like Batman and not so much DBZ,"
Actually, not so much. I think Batman is a boring, and flat character, whose only saving grace is a few interesting villains. I've never been a fan of Batman by any stretch. On the other hand, I was an avid fan of DBZ for several years, resulting in my now being the owner of the entire Manga.
"but still, you have a very specific view of what skills are."
"Skills are found everywhere, and so is natural attributes, plus mental."
That's true. Combat skills, not so much.
"Goku has a strong mind, his determination is absolute, his power is a result of his training, which includes practicing kicks, punches, grabs, throws (if you watch the show you see him doing that vs Broly as an example) the physical part is just to solidify that it actually does damage to people and not just look like Krillin does when he attacks Cell."
Partially true. I've bolded the part that isn't completely accurate.
1. There is no 'purely physical' part of Goku's training. All of his training to get stronger/more powerful, is aimed at increasing hi Ki, which he uses to increase his physical strength, speed, etc.
And the majority of his fights are won because of superior power, not because of being the better fighter.
"Oh and earlier you said the manga had no mention of Krillin and Gohan fighting on the astral plane, here it is:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0h4bIN25bI "
And I was right. There is no mention of the Astral Plane, or training on the Astral Plane, anywhere in the vid.
They call what they are doing "image training", I haven't been able to find anywhere, an explanation on what that is.
"also what are they doing, they are punching and kicking and practicing that, not just doing push ups and climbing poles
(they do that too, as to make it a complete workout )"
That's true, and I've never said otherwise.
"You have to admit this is me not being a fanboy just me being a counter arguer, I think there is a difference, and fun"
More like a mix of the two. But definitely amusing, yes.
"Smitheros almost always sides against DBZ and Anu has no idea what he is talking about."
1. Not true. Put the Z fighters in a match they would actually win, and I'll be the first to debate for them.
"Also, Smitheros, Goku is a martial artist, I believe he is close to Batman in hand to hand, but Batman would win as he is fast witted."
No, Goku is a fighter. Being a Martial Artist would require knowing actual martial arts(i.e. at least one close-combat style), which he doesn't. And Batman would win in a straight up fight, yes.
"Marvel that's somewhat true, in this case Goku is not just someone who knows stances he knows how to counter you, he is skill enough to contend with any fighter.
I wouldnt be surprised if Goku was in DC he would not only master what Batman has, but a lot faster as well."
Yea, that's your fanboy side talking right there.