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Match 12029 Darkseid vs. Janemba


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#21 sirmethos

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:10 PM

-snip-


"Here we go again, telepathy doesnt work on these guys"

I suppose you have some kind of evidence to support that? As far as I know, there are no examples of any of the DBZ characters having any kind of defense against Telepathy. Just a high resistance against outright Mind Control. Which is not the same. But I might be wrong, so if there is any examples of DBZ characters, I'm willing to be convinced.

"TK does and Janemba has that plus can create holes to redirect energy."

Darkseid has telekinesis more powerful than any TK showings in DBZ, and is an outright energy manipulator. So far you're not really making a compelling case for Janemba.

"I'm tired of this. DS can't even fly"

What does that have to do with anything? The majority of his powers are ranged anyway, and he has proven on several occasions that he is very much capable of fighting against flying opponents.

Janemba can't even become as big as a skyscraper. But you don't see me making that a point for why Darkseid wins. Why? Because it's unimportant.

"and that has a lot to do in a fight especially since Janemba is so much more quicker, faster and better fighter."

No, it has pretty much nothing to do with the outcome.

As for Janemba being "so much more quicker, faster and better fighter". Quicker and Faster, is true to a certain degree, though Darkseid has shown reaction speed that can compete. But a better fighter, debatable.

Darkseid has proven himself as a highly skilled hand-to-hand fighter, and is definitely a more experienced fighter than Janemba.

"Plus his sword would def hurt or kill DS."

Hurting him, debatable. But with some logical arguments and a little proof, I'd be willing to concede on that one. The sword won't be killing Darkseid though.


""can Darkseid destroy a universe?" No not with his own power. And even so it's probably been shown once or twice at most. And even so Janemba can teleport across dimensions"

Darkseid can teleport across dimensions as well. What's your point?

#22 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 03:30 PM

Anu, instead of always getting worked up, why don't you state your opinion and leave? Why do you feel like you have to change someone else's opinion?

Here is a much better DBZ fight though http://www.electricf...showtopic=27300 XD

#23 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:01 PM

sorry computer problems

#24 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 06:12 PM

Sirmethos, I want to reply to you

Okay Telepathy is such a vague power because Helene it or not there are only to kinds of mind powers, telepathy which encompasses all non physical aspects including Mind Control, I mean what else would cause someone's mind to control someone else's I figured a comic guy like you can see that, but I have been wrong before
Then there is TK, which uses mind powers to physically move or alter matter.

In DBZ, everything is based on power levels correct? (I'm sure you can agree with me so far)
So if someone like Tien has been shown to use Telepathy, and others as well, including TK. It can be assumed that person A being much more powerful in power level, would no doubt resist someone with less power level ratings

Which is why King Kai cannot read people like Cell's mind but can detect his presence.

Another note, you make an invalid point by saying that the burden of proof lies on me to show proof that DBZ people are resistant to TP, when in reality You should be able to prove to me that DS has that high of telepathy, if so why not use it to mind wipe Batman in that time when he was shot by him?? Or in any other time he has been seen losing.

The problem with what you claim is that you go by DS's DC page and not his actual showings. You say he can teleport across galaxies, so what Janemba can destroy dimensions ( which if you actually think about it escaping to another dimension is different than escaping to another part of the same universe.

You claim experience is that much of a factor, but it's really not. I'm sure Superman is not nearly as experienced and still beats DS up.

I'm tired of the fears that DS may be able to do because the writers said it a few times, but

1. DS does not have speed nor agility better than Janemba,
2. Reaction speed is a lame excuse you claim a lot on here, ever think that is PIS and not an actual feat?
3. By the way experienced hand to hand combatant only means that, Janemba def has better showings of fighting than anything DS has ever shown plus DBZ uses kicks and not just wild punches. The only one that actually fights well is Batman that are not nearly as experienced as DBZ for the fact that Goku is a born fighter where batman uses tech and other things more than fighting.
4. Janemba has a sword that is not just a regular sword, given the fact that it was made out of magic.

#25 sirmethos

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 07:03 PM

-snip-


"Okay Telepathy is such a vague power because Helene it or not there are only to kinds of mind powers, telepathy which encompasses all non physical aspects including Mind Control, I mean what else would cause someone's mind to control someone else's I figured a comic guy like you can see that, but I have been wrong before"

If I'm reading this right, then you're basically saying that, just because the DBZ fighters have shown resistance to Mind Control, they are resistant to all forms of telepathic attacks.

That's like saying that just because Superman absorbs Sunlight, and gets more powerful because of it, he should also be able to absorb Electricity and get more powerful, they're both forms of Electro-Magnetic energy after all.

In both cases, that's not the case. To give you an analogy: If a guy puts you in a choke hold(that's the Mind Control), and you are able to get out of it. What you're basically saying, is that from that one feat(getting out of the choke hold), you are now able to avoid/get out of, any kind of attacks that guy can launch at you. That's simply not the case. He could still knock you out with a punch in the face(let's call that the Telepathic Spike), knock you on the ground with a leg swipe(Mind Blast), or take you down with a swift kick to the nuts(let's call that illusions).

The DBZ fighters have shown that they can resist Mind Control, through pure will power. But while that is a moderately impressive feat, it does not, in any way, show any kind of resistance or protection against telepathic attacks.


"In DBZ, everything is based on power levels correct? (I'm sure you can agree with me so far)"

I can definitely agree on that. The winner of every fight in DBZ gets determined by Power level. Superior power = winner.


"So if someone like Tien has been shown to use Telepathy, and others as well, including TK. It can be assumed that person A being much more powerful in power level, would no doubt resist someone with less power level ratings"

Not true.

1. Just because person A has shown telepathy, doesn't mean that Person B has telepathy as well, just because he is more powerful.
and 2. Just because you are able to use telepathy, doesn't necessarily mean that you have active telepathic defenses. Which would be needed to defend against the more direct methods of telepathic attacks(Telepathic Spike, Mind Blast, etc.).


"Which is why King Kai cannot read people like Cell's mind but can detect his presence."

Not so much, no. King Kai generally doesn't read people's minds. He just communicates with them, and IIRC, he doesn't do that telepathically, he "talks to them through their hearts", which =/= telepathy.


"Another note, you make an invalid point by saying that the burden of proof lies on me to show proof that DBZ people are resistant to TP, when in reality You should be able to prove to me that DS has that high of telepathy"

You made a claim:

telepathy doesnt work on these guys,


Thus, the burden of proof is on you. I have made no claims, just stated common knowledge about Darkseid's powers.


"The problem with what you claim is that you go by DS's DC page and not his actual showings."

Not so much. I go by Darkseid's stated powers. I only visit the various wikia's if I can't remember a specific detail while I'm in the middle of a debate and don't really have time to leaf through a ton of comics.


"You say he can teleport across galaxies, so what Janemba can destroy dimensions ( which if you actually think about it escaping to another dimension is different than escaping to another part of the same universe."

No, I haven't said that he can teleport across galaxies. I have said that he can teleport across dimensions(which is, again, just a fact). I would kinda like to see some proof of Janemba's ability to "destroy dimensions" though.


"You claim experience is that much of a factor, but it's really not. I'm sure Superman is not nearly as experienced and still beats DS up."

Experience is not much of a factor? Try getting in a few actual fights, I can guarantee that experience is most definitely a factor, and a rather large one at that.

As for Superman beating Darkseid. He's the hero, of course he wins.

If you look at some of the opponents that they have both faced though, Darkseid is once again shown superior. A good example would be Orion, that has stalemated Superman(in Superman's own comics no less) on more than one occasion. Darkseid completely dominated him in a purely skill based hand-to-hand fight(more than once).


"I'm tired of the fears that DS may be able to do because the writers said it a few times, but

1. DS does not have speed nor agility better than Janemba,
2. Reaction speed is a lame excuse you claim a lot on here, ever think that is PIS and not an actual feat?
3. By the way experienced hand to hand combatant only means that, Janemba def has better showings of fighting than anything DS has ever shown plus DBZ uses kicks and not just wild punches. The only one that actually fights well is Batman that are not nearly as experienced as DBZ for the fact that Goku is a born fighter where batman uses tech and other things more than fighting.
4. Janemba has a sword that is not just a regular sword, given the fact that it was made out of magic."


1. True, he has better Reaction Speed than Janemba though, and is a lot faster than people expect him to be(he has even surprised Superman with his speed on a few occasions).
2. No, Reaction Speed is not a "lame excuse", reaction speed is an actual thing. I.e. how fast you are able to react. As for whether it's PIS or not. Some feats of Reaction speed in comics are PIS, others are not. Same as with strength, speed, durability, energy manipulation, etc. etc. ad nauseum. In this particular case, Darkseid has regularly shown reaction speed more than fast enough to keep up with the DBZ fighters.
3.
a. No, Janemba does not have better showings than anything Darkseid has shown(I'll refer you to Darkseid's fight against Orion, that Darkseid won btw).
b. No, Batman is far from the only one that "actually fights well", and yes, Batman is more experienced than the majority of the DBZ fighters(I'll break it down for you if needs be).
4. True. And your point is..?

#26 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 07:27 PM

Are you kidding me Sirmethos. I can tell you know nothing of actual fighting let alone martial arts, but thats cool.
A few things that you are wrong. Choke Hold being mind control and a punch being telepathy. Please use this basic logic as it would probably help you.

Prof X has telepathy which he can control minds right? He therefore has the ability to control his own mind thus creating a telepathic barrier. I like how you argue something that is fictional (being that you are trying to get so technical that you are not making sense)

Goku has telepathy and no one trained him to use it. He and all others can do it but arent as good as they aren't as powerful. What makes you think he cannot fight off other forms of the same technique (In DBZ everything is a technique, unless it's magic)

So Superman beating DS is PIS is what you are saying, even though the writers have mostly always shown Supes beating DS, yeah good logic there (I call it excuses as if Superman is mostly winning means that DS beating Supes is PIS more than the other way around) You must not be aware of plots and climaxes as Orion stalemating Supes is just that.
oh and I have been in real fights, unlike you I actual do it every week, train and spar, reaction time is not real, sure you can react faster, but that always means that you are faster in general. You cannot be a slow poke and be "faster at reacting to something" its called muscle twitches and that is all related. You are taking one aspect of it and calling something different which is nonsense.
Watch the show, when Krillin Bulma and Gohan are traveling to Namek, they fight in the astral plane. Mind control is not just TP< it is a part of it, and if you can will yourself to not be affected by mind control, then you can essentially defend your mind in general. You say that Darkseid has shown to be able to react to DBZ fighters? How have they fought? oh that means you assume because some PIS shows DS punching Superman? Lame buddy I thought you were more logical than that.

Oh and experience is not a determining factor it is a factor that gets calculated but as part of a whole system of rating.
If you want to pull real life in this
Try the GSP vs Matt Sera or even Matt Hughes, GSP is less experienced in wrestling than both, and still beat them out of pure sheer strength and skill.
Want to take comics as examples, Wolverine has "tons" experience, but loses to Spiderman, why because his skill strength and agility plus intelligence kicks in which is what I mean by experience being just one of a few factors to consider.
OH and your Batman is more experienced than DBZ makes me wonder, you base it on how many styles he knows, which makes sense on the outside, but its not about styles as if you knew most martial arts are just tradition and not practical. I rather know a few practical ones than a bunch of useless ones (Tai Chi, TKD as examples that are really useless except a few moves from that style specifically).
Goku is that guy that learns as he fights, he picks up fighting a lot faster than anyone in his universe and I bet if he was human he would be more powerful than Karate Kid is still,

People like you claim since I cannot name a specific style Goku has learned that therefore he doesnt know any or not as good of a fighter, but you all can agree that the crane style or hermit turtle style is a conglomerate of unnamed styles (DBZ is not our earth and should not be compared to our styles we know)
Lastly Janemba's sword is magic, which usually breaks the laws of physics and given that it's an aspect of his own energy is just as powerful as he can be. Darkseid would lose as even if he can react as fast as you say he cannot move out of the way since he is (you said) much slower anyway.

I like having time off work I can start a ruckus on this site.

#27 sirmethos

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 08:58 PM

"Are you kidding me Sirmethos. I can tell you know nothing of actual fighting let alone martial arts, but thats cool."

No, I'm not kidding, and I know quite a bit about actual fighting and martial arts. Kain can vouch for that :)


"A few things that you are wrong. Choke Hold being mind control and a punch being telepathy. Please use this basic logic as it would probably help you."

Try actually reading what I say.

Choke Hold would be the analogy for Mind Control, while a punch to the face would be the analogy for a Telepathic Spike. They're both Telepathy, they're just different applications of it. Just like a Punch and a Choke Hold are both physical attacks, just different kinds. Being able to resist/defend against one, doesn't necessarily mean that you're able to defend against the other.


"Prof X has telepathy which he can control minds right? He therefore has the ability to control his own mind thus creating a telepathic barrier."

Professor X has telepathy, yes. He has trained himself over several years, to be able to do all kinds of things. He has also, in the process of that training, developed telepathic shielding. At first, it was purely receptive telepathy. I.e. he was reading everyone around him's minds, without being able to stop. Thus, he initially learned how to shield himself, so that he wouldn't be overwhelmed.

Emma Frost is also a telepath, but she didn't develop mental shields until after her first encounter with another telepath. She was capable of things like Mind Reading, and minor Mental Adjustments though.

The only telepathy that the DBZ characters have shown, is purely communicative(and possibly some mind reading, but I'm not 100% sure on that one). Something that doesn't require shielding in any way. Babidi was able to use Mind Control, and they were able to resist that by pure will power.

I'm still waiting for some kind of proof that they have any kind of mental/telepathic defenses.


"Goku has telepathy and no one trained him to use it. He and all others can do it but arent as good as they aren't as powerful. What makes you think he cannot fight off other forms of the same technique (In DBZ everything is a technique, unless it's magic)"

As I already said, the only telepathy shown by any of the Z fighters, is purely communicative. Nothing that would require any kind of mental defenses.

What makes me think that he wouldn't be able to fight off other kinds of telepathic attacks, is quite simple. A mind blast, or a telepathic spike, or other similar offensive telepathic techniques, are not things you can "fight off". Either you defend yourself(with mental shielding). I.e. the attack never actually hits you(it hits your shields). Or you don't defend yourself. I.e. the attack either breaks through your shields, or you don't have any shields.

By your logic, Goku's standard energy shield, that is able to protect him against Energy Blasts, should also be able to protect him from the Solar Flare technique. After all, the Solar Flare is just another Ki Technique. But we both know that it doesn't work that way.


"So Superman beating DS is PIS is what you are saying"

No, Superman beating Darkseid is because Superman is the hero. It has nothing to do with PIS. PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity. The hero always winning in the end, is just a comic book fact. Comics Mechanics.


"oh and I have been in real fights, unlike you I actual do it every week, train and spar, reaction time is not real, sure you can react faster, but that always means that you are faster in general. You cannot be a slow poke and be "faster at reacting to something" its called muscle twitches and that is all related. You are taking one aspect of it and calling something different which is nonsense."

Training and sparring in a controlled environment =/= real fights. Try going to a club and getting into a fight there. Then you can claim you've been in a real fight.

And yes, reaction time is very much real. "Reaction time is the elapsed time between the presentation of a sensory stimulus and the subsequent behavioral response."

Just like Movement speed is real(moving from A to B ), and combat speed is real.

Having a faster reaction time, doesn't necessarily mean that you are faster in general. I speak from painful experience on that -.-

And from his general showings, Darkseid's reaction speed and combat speed, is fast enough to keep up with the DBZ fighters.


"Watch the show, when Krillin Bulma and Gohan are traveling to Namek, they fight in the astral plane."

Been a while since I've seen the show, but the manga shows absolutely nothing. And I don't remember anything about the astral plane from the show either. Though if you can actually prove it(i.e. a youtube vid)...


"Mind control is not just TP< it is a part of it, and if you can will yourself to not be affected by mind control, then you can essentially defend your mind in general."

So, if you can get out of a choke hold, you can automatically defend yourself against any kind of physical attack. Yea, that's logic.[/sarcasm]


"You say that Darkseid has shown to be able to react to DBZ fighters? How have they fought? oh that means you assume because some PIS shows DS punching Superman? Lame buddy I thought you were more logical than that."

I don't assume. Darkseid has shown to be able to react at speeds more than enough to react to the DBZ fighters on several occasions. Doing something repeatedly =/= PIS. PIS = Plot Induced Stupidity. If a person/character does the same over and over and over again, then it's not PIS.
Spider-Man defeating Firelord = PIS
Squirrel Girl defeating Thanos = PIS
Black Panther physically restraining Silver Surfer = PIS

Singular incidents, not something that happens over and over again.


"Oh and experience is not a determining factor it is a factor that gets calculated but as part of a whole system of rating."

That's true, experience alone doesn't determine the outcome. And I've never said that it did. I've merely said that it is a big factor. Which is simply a fact.

Other factors are Physical stats(strength, durability, speed, agility, reaction time, stamina, etc.), Skills, Ruthlessness, etc.



"OH and your Batman is more experienced than DBZ makes me wonder, you base it on how many styles he knows, which makes sense on the outside, but its not about styles as if you knew most martial arts are just tradition and not practical."

No, I base it on his years of experience, vs. the years of experience that the Z fighters have(goku, for example).

I'll break it down for you.
Goku: has about... what, 30 years of experience? if we count training/sparring. And about... 5-6 years of actual combat experience(and that's being generous) at the end of the Manga. Most of his actual fighting, happens in small spurts. The entire Dragonball(when he was a kid) takes less than a year. Then we have a 10(IIRC) year time-skip, then Raditz arrives, and there is about a year or so of on/off fighting, until his fight with Frieza. Then there's a minor time-skip again, he arrives on earth, and then another time-skip while they wait for the Androids to arrive. Then there's less than a year again with on/off fighting, until he dies when Cell blows himself up.

Batman: has about 30 years of experience as well, if we count training/sparring. And about 15-20 years of actual combat experience(guesstimating his age to about 40-45). From he arrived back in Gotham at around the age of 20-25, he has pretty much been fighting every day.

Goku's list of noteworthy defeated enemies: Vegeta(ish, it was kind of a stalemate), then Ginyu and two from the ginyu force, then Frieza. That's 5 so far(with 1 being a stalemate). That's about it. (note, my memory was off... I actually thought that Goku had personally defeated more than that).

Batman's list of noteworthy defeated enemies: Bane, Killer Croc, Hush, Joker, Lady Shiva, etc. etc. etc. too many to list.

Bottom line: Yes, Batman has far more combat experience than any of the Z fighters.

And while, yes, a lot of martial arts are more 'show' than effectiveness. There are several martial arts that are highly effective as well.


"I rather know a few practical ones than a bunch of useless ones (Tai Chi, TKD as examples that are really useless except a few moves from that style specifically)."

Neither Tai Chi, nor Tae Kwon Do are useless(though granted, unlike other more 'practical' martial arts, they require a certain minimum of skill before they start being effective).

I would much rather go up against someone that has spent a year or two learning/training 'practical' martial arts. Than someone that has spent 10-20 years learning/training Tae Kwon Do.

I can think of several martial arts that I would prefer over TKD, but that hardly makes it useless. The mental aspect of a martial art, is just as important as the physical moves. For example, I would rather go up against a Jeet Kune Do fighter, than an Aikido fighter. Purely because of the mental aspects. With the JKD fighter, I would just get my arse kicked, I would hurt, and I would get over it. With the Aikido fighter, I wouldn't get hurt, I would get humiliated -.- And while I'm not particularly touchy about my pride, that's just taking it to the ridiculous.

Ideally, I would mix a handful or so, of different Martial Arts.

If you take a guy, and spend 10 years teaching him one style. Then once those 10 years are done, I can, with knowledge of which style you've been teaching him, teach a random guy from the street, enough to take him down, in a matter of 2, maybe 3 weeks. Simply by countering that specific style.

If you take that same guy, and teach him 2 different styles. Then it would take me a lot longer to train a random guy to take him down.


"Goku is that guy that learns as he fights, he picks up fighting a lot faster than anyone in his universe and I bet if he was human he would be more powerful than Karate Kid is still,"

Goku is from the DBZ universe, of course he would be more powerful than Karate Kid. Karate Kid is far more skilled though, take away Goku's superior power, and put them on an even footing, so that the fight is determined by pure skill and experience, and Goku wouldn't stand a chance.


"People like you claim since I cannot name a specific style Goku has learned that therefore he doesnt know any or not as good of a fighter, but you all can agree that the crane style or hermit turtle style is a conglomerate of unnamed styles (DBZ is not our earth and should not be compared to our styles we know)"

It has nothing to do with not being able to name a specific style. But everything to do with the fact that Goku never recieved any technical hand-to-hand training. All the training he has recieved, has been focused on learning various Ki techniques, and increasing his Power Level.

The 'Hermit Turtle style', is not a hand-to-hand combat style, it's more of a mind-set, and a few Ki Techniques(like how Flying or rather Levitation, was originally a Crane style technique).


"Lastly Janemba's sword is magic, which usually breaks the laws of physics and given that it's an aspect of his own energy is just as powerful as he can be. Darkseid would lose as even if he can react as fast as you say he cannot move out of the way since he is (you said) much slower anyway."

What does that have to do with anything? There is only one thing that can kill Darkseid(radion). Magic is not it.

#28 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:28 PM

ok so again you know nothing about fighting.

I will say this in a more simpler manner.

You would rather fight a JKD fighter? that means nothing because it is not a style, but let me continue...

You are basing that Batman has more experience because he has fought more people, well by that anyone that has fought more is more skilled? You put Killer Croc in there as if he was anything special, hes not a fighter, nor a skilled fighter as that.
Goku beat for than 5 people

to name a few, he defeated his own master, Krillin, Ten, Piccolo, Gunyu (most of them, at least 4) Vegeta( he would have)
Frieza, and Buu at the very least, and also the no name ones he fought which is more than another 6

Between quality and quantity I rather take quality. Sure Batman has fought more, well he should, but half his fights he captures and evades rather than fight.

You mention that if you take away Goku's superior power he would lose to Karate Kid, how so? That means that he is still a fighter and Karate Kid w/o his chi is just human whereas Goku is not.

Goku recieved training that makes him faster and stronger as well as when Popo trained him how to focus and use his brain, he received better training as in DBZ it is beyond style, but also power/skill/energy, all which have more aspects of fighting than just styles as Batman has.

He received training from Karin, Kami, King Kai, the people that taught him IT, and several other races from the other world.
He is always training.

Put it this way, If you take a weight lifting class and I just weight lift on my own it doesn't make you better.
In DBZ fighting style is the basics (meaning that in DC styles are their pinnacle) and Goku mastered that, he trains to become more powerful as he needs to or else he is toast. Goku loves fighting and laughs at challenge, he enjoys it and is a horrible parent and husband as a result (he is ALWAYS training) Self training is real as many UFC fighters do so. Bruce Lee did it, he received basic training in a few styles like Gung Fu and then read about others and practiced, Goku does the same he received basic training (mastered it and then self improved it to be effective with higher power)

In other words, this is just like Thor who has no formal training except with a Hammer and yet you would even consider him a better fighter just because he has been doing it for 1000's of years but name me at least a few issues where he is seen training specifically in hand to hand? Not once has Thor used a kick, nor Superman. Batman does, but lacks power so basically Goku is a mix of it all. It's not cheap to have more power, even a Cheetah is more agile and faster than a lion, but the lion is fast enough and stronger so it makes the cheetah inferior, which is what Batman is to any DBZ.

Oh and there is more than one way to skin a cat always. I am sure Magic can too or even sheer brute force as he has been beat up and manhandled by people with pure physical attacks (Doomsday)

#29 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:34 PM



him training in actual hand to hand combat

#30 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:37 PM

another good example is the movie GI Joe, when Snake Eyes is the better skilled fighter but Duke takes him down anyway

#31 sirmethos

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:40 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpLP4ynbk8Q

him training in actual hand to hand combat


Non-Canon.

That directly contradicts the Manga, which is the primary Canon.

Give me a few moments and I'll post the scan from the Manga.(and I'll reply to your main post, the large one, after that).

#32 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 09:55 PM

ok cool I will wait for it. Either way, the DBZ is always skipping time, so it is assumed that Goku trains everyday, literally

Oh and if you choke me out, and I block it or get out of it, I will more than likely be able to dodge a punch or have trained to fight and not just to grapple.


So telepathy is the same, you train your mind and it becomes harder to mess with. Like magneto has no training but can defend regardless

#33 sirmethos

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:04 PM

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

Posted Image

#34 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:12 PM

good post, however this is one scan, show them actually sparring, this just helps me more as it implies that this physical training with their fighting makes them better, it would be equivalent to me weight training to get more powerful as I practice my fighting as well.

#35 sirmethos

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 10:57 PM

Now to respond to the large one.

"You are basing that Batman has more experience because he has fought more people"

Uh, yea. Fighting more = more combat experience.

"well by that anyone that has fought more is more skilled?"

No, they are more experienced. There's a difference.

"You put Killer Croc in there as if he was anything special, hes not a fighter, nor a skilled fighter as that."

Croc is far faster, more durable, stronger, more agile, etc. Defeating him is an impressive feat in and of itself. He is also a fairly skilled wrestler and street fighter, so saying that "he isn't a fighter" is pure bull.

"Goku beat for than 5 people

to name a few, he defeated his own master, Krillin, Ten, Piccolo, Gunyu (most of them, at least 4) Vegeta( he would have)
Frieza, and Buu at the very least, and also the no name ones he fought which is more than another 6"


From the Ginyu force(aside from Ginyu himself) he only defeated 3, and I didn't count Recoome, because all he(goku) did was elbow him in the stomach. Which makes it a total of 3 from the Ginyu Force.

Vegeta was, at best, a stalemate. If he hadn't gotten help from Yajirobe, he would have been completely crushed.

Piccolo, Krillin, Tenshinhan and Roshi is true, but if you noticed, I only started counting from the arrival of Raditz.

He didn't defeat Buu, he stalemated him until he(goku) ran out of energy. Though he did defeat Yakon when Buu was being awakened, I forgot about him earlier.

From Raditz' arrival and up, he didn't really fight any nonames. It was mostly just the large battles.

That still doesn't count up to more than, maybe, 10 if we're being generous, since the arrival of Raditz.


"Between quality and quantity I rather take quality. Sure Batman has fought more, well he should, but half his fights he captures and evades rather than fight."

Bane, Hush, Lady Shiva, Ra's Al Ghul, just to mention a few Batman enemies that are more skilled than any of the enemies that Goku has faced.

Batman has Goku beaten in both quantity as well as quality of enemies. Goku's enemies are more powerful though.


"You mention that if you take away Goku's superior power he would lose to Karate Kid, how so? That means that he is still a fighter and Karate Kid w/o his chi is just human whereas Goku is not."

Again, read what I say.

I said if we took away Goku's superior power, and put them on an even footing, so that the fight is determined by pure skill and experience

And I'll say again, in a battle between the two, of pure skill, Goku would be completely decimated.


"Goku recieved training that makes him faster and stronger as well as when Popo trained him how to focus and use his brain, he received better training as in DBZ it is beyond style, but also power/skill/energy, all which have more aspects of fighting than just styles as Batman has."

Yes, during his training with Popo(just like with Karin, and Kai), his training was focused on his Ki. Making him stronger, and get better control of his Ki/new Ki techniques. All of which is extremely effective in DBZ fights, but which would be completely useless in a pure hand-to-hand fight.


"He received training from Karin, Kami, King Kai, the people that taught him IT, and several other races from the other world."

Again, all focused on Ki. Usefull in DBZ, useless in hand-to-hand.


"Put it this way, If you take a weight lifting class and I just weight lift on my own it doesn't make you better."

That's true, but what does that have to do with anything?

If you just learn to fight on your own, while I take classes to learn how to fight, that would make me the better fighter(purely based on skill).



"In DBZ fighting style is the basics (meaning that in DC styles are their pinnacle) and Goku mastered that, he trains to become more powerful as he needs to or else he is toast. Goku loves fighting and laughs at challenge, he enjoys it and is a horrible parent and husband as a result (he is ALWAYS training)"

Yes, Goku is always training, and the majority of that training, has the purpose of making him stronger and faster, i.e. more powerful.


"Self training is real as many UFC fighters do so. Bruce Lee did it, he received basic training in a few styles like Gung Fu and then read about others and practiced"

Uh, not so much. Bruce Lee recieved 5 years of formal training in Wing Chun(from age 13 to 18), with personal instruction from two masters. That =/= "basic training". He did recieve basic training in a few other styles though.


"Goku does the same he received basic training (mastered it and then self improved it to be effective with higher power)"

The only actual training Goku has recieved(if any) was from his grandfather, which might, if we're generous, add up to 1-2 years of actual hand-to-hand training(though from the early showings in DB, I doubt he even got that much).


"n other words, this is just like Thor who has no formal training except with a Hammer"

Wait, what?

We're talking about the same Thor here, right? God of Thunder, member of the Avengers, son of Odin?

He was trained for longer than Goku has been alive, and is one of the most skilled fighters in Marvel. He is skilled enough, that when he lost his powers, he was still able to stalemate Captain America in hand-to-hand combat.

He was trained by the finest warriors of Asgard, from he was old enough to hold walk properly and form his hand into a fist.

On top of that, he has several thousand years of combat experience, both from personal travels in the 9 realms, but also from leading the armies of Asgard into battle in the various realms.



"and yet you would even consider him a better fighter just because he has been doing it for 1000's of years"

No, I would consider him a better fighter because he has proven that he is. Because he was trained as a warrior longer than Goku has been alive, and has kept his skills up by continuous use in actual combat.


"but name me at least a few issues where he is seen training specifically in hand to hand?"

I'll have to get back to you on that, I can't, off the top of my head, remember which issues it was where he lost his powers(where he, among other things, stalemated Captain America).


"Not once has Thor used a kick, nor Superman."

Not true, try reading some actual Thor(and superman) comics.



"Batman does, but lacks power"

Again, put him on an even footing with Goku, and Goku would get his arse kicked all over the place. More skill, and more combat experience.


"so basically Goku is a mix of it all."

That's true. Goku has both power and skill, and I've never denied that.


"It's not cheap to have more power, even a Cheetah is more agile and faster than a lion, but the lion is fast enough and stronger so it makes the cheetah inferior, which is what Batman is to any DBZ."

Again, true. But I've never denied that in a straight up fight, Batman would go *splat* due to being overpowered. My only claim is, and has always been, that Batman is far more skilled, and if put on an even footing, would relatively easily defeat any of the Z fighters.


"Oh and there is more than one way to skin a cat always. I am sure Magic can too "

No, radion is the only thing that can kill Darkseid.


"or even sheer brute force as he has been beat up and manhandled by people with pure physical attacks (Doomsday) "

He has been beaten up, yes. But that =/= being killed.



"good post, however this is one scan, show them actually sparring, this just helps me more as it implies that this physical training with their fighting makes them better, it would be equivalent to me weight training to get more powerful as I practice my fighting as well."

If you actually read what is said in the scans I provided, Roshi straight up says "I have nothing more to teach you".

At that point, he has taught them absolutely nothing about hand-to-hand fighting, just the Kamehameha wave. And made them stronger.

#36 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 29 June 2012 - 11:43 PM

Thanks for the posts dude, I cant sleep and want to continue it.
Keeping to what you replied to me I will address you one point at a time.

From the top:
1. More fighting is more experience, but not more skill, fact homie, you can be in school for 8 years and still not be smarter than someone who went for 4 years, more skill doesn't mean better, since skill is just a fraction of what determines a win in a real fight(which I assume you have been in some from your earlier Nightclub comment) I train a lot, I do a lot of sparring which by definition I am more skilled than you, but in reality it could be that you knock me out fast, I doubt you train, but if we both did equally it would come down to pure power/speed and other physical aspects and not skill. (unless I have no clue what to do of course, in this case Goku does)

2. Croc is not skilled at all, never has been, sure he is stronger, but ifI recall Batman uses his gadgets and tech almost as much if not more than him actually fighting Croc. Moot point since Croc's intelligence is borderline retarded, that feat is not that impressive if you ask me. Croc is a croc of crap.

3. Count Recoome as he whooped him good, still counts. Also Goku has fought Pei Pei, Yajirobe (when he was small), and a few more, I count it all as you are trying to name his wins or fights, but you exclude most of them

4. Vegeta was a stalemate but Goku was the weaker opponent and if you can say that Batman beating Croc is legit than Goku having never fought someone like him was almost able to defeat him, plus that was the plot so that he can be motivated to train harder.

5. Again you say more skill equals better, when it's not true. Batman loses to the Joker until he uses his tech, does that mean more skilled? No.

6. Fights (in reference to your reply about Karate Kid)aren't just experience and skill it's also ability and Goku's abilities (minus chi) which means Karate Kid has no chi, would still be a human that is fighting a sayjin (which still has the ability you gain experience and become stronger with each fight. You forget to mention that Goku learns techs instantly and even if Karate Kid had the upper hand it would be for a few seconds

7. The majority of his training is to become stronger which will allow his skills to be backed up by power, which if you don't know is a factor in a fight. Take Bruce Lee vs Anderson Silva, You can argue that Bruce is a better skilled fighter, but I can promise that SIlva would whomp on him ( and Silva is probably more skilled as he has trained in something Bruce never did (BJJ) and he just is stronger and taller, more reach etc.

8. Oh and Thor, you say he is more skilled, but there is no proof that he has trained, and most of his fights he just swings his hammer, and then calls it back to do it again. There is no proof that he has actual skill. Beating Captain America is more of a one time thing, therefore if it hasn't happened often it really is just for that issue.
(And no him and Superman do not use kicks.)

9. Your whole Place Goku in even footing is getting tiring, thats like saying put the Lion on even footing with a Cheetah, of course the Cheetah would be faster as he is evolved to be faster, it's not really fair to say that, chi is energy and as long as people have energy (which everyone does even Superman and etc.) Goku can sense it, therefore still be able to react to attacks, as well as he has focused his mind to be one with his body and energy. Goku is the ultimate MMA fighter, not just a fighter with a belt)

10. Lastly I want to conclude that while I know what you are saying, you take all of DBZ literal and yet don't with Marvel and DC, meaning that you post one scan of Roshi saying I have nothing to teach you, but fail to recognize that or just don't want to acknowledge that DB is a martial arts anime, not a super hero cartoon that has a few martial artist. I get it, you like Batman and not so much DBZ, but still, you have a very specific view of what skills are. Skills are found everywhere, and so is natural attributes, plus mental. Goku has a strong mind, his determination is absolute, his power is a result of his training, which includes practicing kicks, punches, grabs, throws (if you watch the show you see him doing that vs Broly as an example) the physical part is just to solidify that it actually does damage to people and not just look like Krillin does when he attacks Cell.

Oh and earlier you said the manga had no mention of Krillin and Gohan fighting on the astral plane, here it is:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0h4bIN25bI


also what are they doing, they are punching and kicking and practicing that, not just doing push ups and climbing poles
(they do that too, as to make it a complete workout )


good shit, have a great night and hope to read your reply Sirmethos
(You have to admit this is me not being a fanboy just me being a counter arguer, I think there is a difference, and fun)

#37 I_KNOW_ALL

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 03:04 AM

Okay, I have clearly shown myself as a DBZ fanboy but, let's be serious DBZ is NOT on god level. Kai's ARE the gds of the Z universe, but they aren't very powerful at all, Goku at SSJ1 was more powerful then King Kai, and SSJ2's are more powerful than the SUPREME KAI!

The Kai's are more like gaurdians than anything.

That aside, Smitheros almost always sides against DBZ and Anu has no idea what he is talking about.

That being said, I still side with Janemba.

#38 I_KNOW_ALL

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 03:12 AM

Also, Smitheros, Goku is a martial artist, I believe he is close to Batman in hand to hand, but Batman would win as he is fast witted. Karate Kid would decimate Goku in hand to hand assuming no powers were in play, but Goku vs say Superman in hand to hand, Supes wouldn't stand a chance. Goku has been trained by the best martial artists and no not just with ki and strength, Tao even stated that his fighting stance was flawless.

#39 MarvelFan15

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 04:05 AM

Tao even stated that his fighting stance was flawless.


Just because I can execute a ballerina stance flawlessly does not mean I'm additionally flawless at ballet. Just because I can baste a chicken without trouble doesn't mean I'm a chef free from the pitfalls of culinary malfeasance. And creating a plaster-cast of David does not make me Michealangelo.

You get the idea.

I hope.

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Posted 30 June 2012 - 08:22 AM

Marvel that's somewhat true, in this case Goku is not just someone who knows stances he knows how to counter you, he is skill enough to contend with any fighter.

I wouldnt be surprised if Goku was in DC he would not only master what Batman has, but a lot faster as well.





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