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Match 11736 Wolverine vs. Deathstroke

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#61 LoneWolf

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 01:26 PM

Wow, so you call the Batman victory over Hulk credible? This really casts doubt on your ability to understand things like logic and physics, which while comics may be light on, still apply in these made up worlds.

There is no possible way a human fist could affect a pressure point on Hulk, not happening. The fact that you do not recognize this PIS makes me really realize you don't know what you're talking about. In fact I'm almost 100% certain you are a DC fanboy, who believes that there is a shred of realism in those comics.

Deathstroke has apparently beaten Wonder Woman in hand to hand as well, yet she is a light speed fighter right? Or else how could she keep up with Superman? How can he phase her... or even worse how can Batman go toe to toe with her? These are just random examples of the background setting in which you are pulling these 'Feats' that Deathstroke has accomplished.

If you have read Wolverine comics before, you would quickly realize that Punisher beating Wolvy is complete PIS due to what I stated earlier.

Wolvy would kill Frank if he won, Frank cannot kill Wolvy, therefore the writers are compelled to have Frank win since both are lethal fighters going for a kill...

Wolverine has been shot with literally hundreds of full auto weapons at close range and it didn't stop him or slow him. How is one guy with a gun going to do that (Punisher)? It was PIS by a writer who quite simply didn't like Wolverine and wanted to tarnish the character.

His endurance and durability mean he can take full on hits from an enraged Hulk and keep fighting, Deathstroke is in NO way possible able to match that level of damage.

Think ahead all you want in a one of one melee fight, there will be blows thrown back and forth, doesn't take a genius to tell what's going to happen, Wolverine is going to try and gut him and even an idiot could see it a mile off. I repeat, his amazing tactical powers are WORTHLESS here, any fool could tell Wolvy's course of action... ***STOPPING*** it is the REAL challenge. I think I already mentioned how hard it is to stop Wolverine.

Wolverine has had his flesh ripped off with gunfire... you can bet a significant number of those rounds hit these pressure points, guess what????? Didn't stop him! Taking a bullet to the chest is a hell of a lot more painfully and shocking than ANY pressure point. It is comic book lore that a pressure point can stop anyone. Otherwise you would see cops, special forces and MMA fighters using that shit, right?

Since you seem to be all about Ju Jitsu and stuff, go get in a match with someone and try and use a pressure point on them in the middle of a round... If it worked, people would use it, it's called common sense.

Regardless of the realism of comic book martial arts, the fact remains, it supposedly damages a nerve, damage which is very superficial (it doesn't break the skin even) and damage which Wolvy will almost instantly heal.

Wolverine is like a wild animal fighting with its natural weapons - its claws. Go take the best UFC fighter you can find and tell him to go choke out a pissed off badger, not going to work. Fact is in a fight like this, both fighters are going to get cut. In RL knife fights, same thing, both people are getting stabbed. Thing is, Wolverine has this little thing where he can get up and walk away afterward, Slade doesn't.. how hard is this to understand??????

#62 force_echo

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 01:37 PM

Hmmm. 'Wrong facts with EVERY argument I make'. Again, direct, incorrect, and vague statements meant to perhaps insult than substantiate something. Even if it was a remote fact that some facts could be wrong,, saying that I state incorrect facts with 'every argument' is pretty vague. Respect your opinion though, and won't comment in kind.

Wrong facts such as?
- DS has faced teamups routinely?
- Has more use of his brain as an ability than improvisation, which counts for something, and which you have been ignoring?
- Is a more articulate fighter, and better 'improvising' tactician than Wolverine?


Wolverine's other feats, like facing off multiple super power opponents:
Wolverine has beaten Hulk? Yes. Surprised you didn't call that PIS. He did get the win once, via Hulk dropping into a gas line and passing out.That is one fight in which he 'won'. Mostly others, here was either a grey area or a loss.
- Beating Fist a feat compared to Stroke vs Batman? Grey area. I do not agree.
- Fist better than Bats: I do not agree
- Kindly give me instances where Wolverine faced off multiple super powered opponents. Please make sure the reference isn't lame. Example: Usually Flash and Lantern would mow down an army of opponents. Give me a feat or stat equal to that, or even something like Cyborg, Changeling, Raven or Starfire, on the same team.

- Wolverine vs Punisher. Hmmm. Here's one example:

http://www.comicaddi...s-punisher.html


For your other arguments:
- You say, DS had prior knowledge and Invisible Woman would wipe the floor with the JLA members, with the same knowledge. As direct as you are, you are still missing the whole point. IW is 'superpowered', has long range battle ability. DS does not. It makes his feat pretty impressive. Nay, more impressive.

- I never said DS didn't have prior knowledge. After all, they live and fight in the same universe. Its common sense more than it is common ground. Again, you are completely either missing the point wholly on purpose, or in the dangerous grey zone where you do not want to look at it: DS improvised in part pre-fight, and in part during fight. That is damn impressive, given there's Flash and Lantern in the mix.

- Technically, no crossovers are canon. Marvel put up their nose and denied the JLA/Avengers crossover as canon, only after initially stating it was canon. Owe it to the nosey back end folks for that drastic change. DC still stated it as canon. Hence, a 50/50 thing. Again, missing the whole point. Saying it was non-canon, but still seeing the battle happened in the same 'lines' defined in comics continuity could open a little room for common perception. I see past the barricades. You don't, that's your choice.

Sorry, in a straight up fight, I do not see Wolverine taking out Stroke. In a series of fights, he might land some lucky ones, and rack up a win or two, after a long series of fights.

DS still wins.

No, the wrong facts I pointed out.

It's not PIS because he's fought the Hulk multiple times and been able to put up one HELL of a fight every single time.

Give you an example of when Wolverine has fought a superpowered opponent? Are you serious?
Omega Red, Sabretooth, Cyber, X-23, Daken, Hulk, Mr. X, Phoenix, Psylocke, Prof. X, Onslaught, Fantastic Four, Blade, Demonized Ogun, Brood Prime, Cable, Carver, Cyclops, Deadpool, Deathbird, EXODUS, Gambit, Gamora, Ghost Rider, Havok, Human Torch, Iceman, Invisible Woman, Kane, MAGNETO, Mr. Clean, Storm, Venom, Vindicator, Abomination, Absorbing Man, Arkon, Crusader, Hercules, Kierrok, Namor, Powerman and the Rhino, Rogue, Thing, Thor, Ultron, Wendigo, Wrecking Crew, X-Force, Alpha Flight, Luke Cage and Iron Fist, over 200 supervillains on a helicarrier, Cap, Cyclops and Hellion at the same time, Spider-Man, etc.

Yeah, too bad thats from Punisher vs. the Marvel Universe and its noncanon.

The point stands that that feat isn't impressive at all. With Deathstroke's knowledge of the JL,and them acting as retarded as they did, Wolverine could fight the JL too.

#63 baneblade

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 02:48 PM

No, the wrong facts I pointed out.

It's not PIS because he's fought the Hulk multiple times and been able to put up one HELL of a fight every single time.

Give you an example of when Wolverine has fought a superpowered opponent? Are you serious?
Omega Red, Sabretooth, Cyber, X-23, Daken, Hulk, Mr. X, Phoenix, Psylocke, Prof. X, Onslaught, Fantastic Four, Blade, Demonized Ogun, Brood Prime, Cable, Carver, Cyclops, Deadpool, Deathbird, EXODUS, Gambit, Gamora, Ghost Rider, Havok, Human Torch, Iceman, Invisible Woman, Kane, MAGNETO, Mr. Clean, Storm, Venom, Vindicator, Abomination, Absorbing Man, Arkon, Crusader, Hercules, Kierrok, Namor, Powerman and the Rhino, Rogue, Thing, Thor, Ultron, Wendigo, Wrecking Crew, X-Force, Alpha Flight, Luke Cage and Iron Fist, over 200 supervillains on a helicarrier, Cap, Cyclops and Hellion at the same time, Spider-Man, etc.

Yeah, too bad thats from Punisher vs. the Marvel Universe and its noncanon.

The point stands that that feat isn't impressive at all. With Deathstroke's knowledge of the JL,and them acting as retarded as they did, Wolverine could fight the JL too.


You first Echo.

- Good to see our references are becoming narrowed.

- So, you only pointed out certain facts. Cool. I apologize then, for mistaking your statement.

- Good to see you list all those folks Wolverine tangoe'd with. You came so strong with them, I appreciate it. My underlying question was not who he's faced: If I didn't phrase it properly, I will do it again. There should be a reference where he faced multiple opponents, at the same time, equaling, if not trumping the abilities of Zatanna, Green Lantern and Flash, at one time. The outcome should also have at least one pin fall style win, if not complete win. That is, to give benefit of doubt.

- Non- canon or not good sir, I have already explained my stance on this. I know we are in a grey area right there, but a grey area nonetheless. Lets just say there are others on this very post, like bro Lone Wolf, who also acknowledge this fact.

- Them 'acting retarded' is per our opinion, not the chief scribe's. Meltzer was pelted with questions literally even before the arc folded. He gave his reasons. I am not saying I am buying them, I am only saying I have to go with them.

#64 baneblade

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 03:28 PM

Wow, so you call the Batman victory over Hulk credible? This really casts doubt on your ability to understand things like logic and physics, which while comics may be light on, still apply in these made up worlds.

There is no possible way a human fist could affect a pressure point on Hulk, not happening. The fact that you do not recognize this PIS makes me really realize you don't know what you're talking about. In fact I'm almost 100% certain you are a DC fanboy, who believes that there is a shred of realism in those comics.

Deathstroke has apparently beaten Wonder Woman in hand to hand as well, yet she is a light speed fighter right? Or else how could she keep up with Superman? How can he phase her... or even worse how can Batman go toe to toe with her? These are just random examples of the background setting in which you are pulling these 'Feats' that Deathstroke has accomplished.

If you have read Wolverine comics before, you would quickly realize that Punisher beating Wolvy is complete PIS due to what I stated earlier.

Wolvy would kill Frank if he won, Frank cannot kill Wolvy, therefore the writers are compelled to have Frank win since both are lethal fighters going for a kill...

Wolverine has been shot with literally hundreds of full auto weapons at close range and it didn't stop him or slow him. How is one guy with a gun going to do that (Punisher)? It was PIS by a writer who quite simply didn't like Wolverine and wanted to tarnish the character.

His endurance and durability mean he can take full on hits from an enraged Hulk and keep fighting, Deathstroke is in NO way possible able to match that level of damage.

Think ahead all you want in a one of one melee fight, there will be blows thrown back and forth, doesn't take a genius to tell what's going to happen, Wolverine is going to try and gut him and even an idiot could see it a mile off. I repeat, his amazing tactical powers are WORTHLESS here, any fool could tell Wolvy's course of action... ***STOPPING*** it is the REAL challenge. I think I already mentioned how hard it is to stop Wolverine.

Wolverine has had his flesh ripped off with gunfire... you can bet a significant number of those rounds hit these pressure points, guess what????? Didn't stop him! Taking a bullet to the chest is a hell of a lot more painfully and shocking than ANY pressure point. It is comic book lore that a pressure point can stop anyone. Otherwise you would see cops, special forces and MMA fighters using that shit, right?

Since you seem to be all about Ju Jitsu and stuff, go get in a match with someone and try and use a pressure point on them in the middle of a round... If it worked, people would use it, it's called common sense.

Regardless of the realism of comic book martial arts, the fact remains, it supposedly damages a nerve, damage which is very superficial (it doesn't break the skin even) and damage which Wolvy will almost instantly heal.

Wolverine is like a wild animal fighting with its natural weapons - its claws. Go take the best UFC fighter you can find and tell him to go choke out a pissed off badger, not going to work. Fact is in a fight like this, both fighters are going to get cut. In RL knife fights, same thing, both people are getting stabbed. Thing is, Wolverine has this little thing where he can get up and walk away afterward, Slade doesn't.. how hard is this to understand??????


Hey bro Lone Wolf.

- Hmm, seems it is either I, or the agitation is random. Accusing me of being a fanboy, when I respectfully stated instances where Captain America downed Hulk on more than one occasion, using 'pressure points'. Is Cap or Hulk DC or Marvel? If you didn't check that out, please do so again.

- I stated, adding to above, that Batman downing Hulk in that year of 1981, was not so much of an anomaly, as it would be now. Batman yet, used extraneous things like knock-out gas to slow him down. Cap simply downed him in both his unintelligent, and intelligent forms. That feat is even more of a stretch. You didn't look at that part and went straight to name calling eh bro?

- Pressure points: Hmmm. Always works, if one gets to use it. You see, bro, you are mixing reality with comics. No need for it. I personally know, that if someone with the strength of Cap tries to toss Hulk, no matter he uses 'pressure points', it won't work. In the comic tales, Cap used 'pressure points' to make Hulk unstable, then manhandled him. What was so hard to understand here? I never said 'comprehend', I only said 'understand'. As for PIS, didn't I say that I don't accept PIS, but eventually HAVE to accept it? Back to pressure point. Once, in a session, my cousin of all people, had me down and was trying to wedge an elbow to my throat chest area. Seemingly while I was done an' exhausted, just as he moved a bit to position himself better for the right elbow and left hand, I saw him propped on his footing, and delivered a near effortless nudge to his achilles' and back of knee area, instantly making him tumble to one side on his ass, from there I at least survived. It is a small experience, but it is there regardless. Yes, in reality when fighters square off, there guards are so high, that such maneuverability will be nearly impossible if not minimal. However, you just can't simply discard what was in the comic book because you think it is not acceptable. It was Marvel that did it, not DC. At least place the blame where it belongs bro.

- That bit with what Wolverine's taken and what not, we all know it. Even casual comic fans know it. Let me attempt this again: DS doesnot need to 'ground and pound', or blow away or dismember Wolverine. I repeat, all he needs is a few well placed movements and strikes to the heart area, to cut off that precious blood supply to the brain, to merely knock him out. I said, he did it in the 'non-canon' book, a'la JLA, ans he is likely to do it here again. You and Echo are both undermining Slade's battle smarts to a degree that is almost close to negligible. That is not cool.

- Wolverine walking away from the battle is most likely bro, after he wakes up.

#65 force_echo

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 03:46 PM

You first Echo.

- Good to see our references are becoming narrowed.

- So, you only pointed out certain facts. Cool. I apologize then, for mistaking your statement.

- Good to see you list all those folks Wolverine tangoe'd with. You came so strong with them, I appreciate it. My underlying question was not who he's faced: If I didn't phrase it properly, I will do it again. There should be a reference where he faced multiple opponents, at the same time, equaling, if not trumping the abilities of Zatanna, Green Lantern and Flash, at one time. The outcome should also have at least one pin fall style win, if not complete win. That is, to give benefit of doubt.

- Non- canon or not good sir, I have already explained my stance on this. I know we are in a grey area right there, but a grey area nonetheless. Lets just say there are others on this very post, like bro Lone Wolf, who also acknowledge this fact.

- Them 'acting retarded' is per our opinion, not the chief scribe's. Meltzer was pelted with questions literally even before the arc folded. He gave his reasons. I am not saying I am buying them, I am only saying I have to go with them.

What does what the creator say have to do with anything? What he says isn't canon, only what's written/drawn is.

I have given you people who rival Zatanna's and Green Lantern's powers, just look at the list. Besides, Wolverine could take Green Lantern and Zatanna too if Green Lantern tried to go hand to hand with him, and Wolverine knew that Zatanna's spells had to be spoken.

#66 LoneWolf

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 03:58 PM

You seem to like the word 'Bro' a lot. Do you think that I find it offensive or that is bothers me? You might have me mistaken for someone else here. You seem to be intentionally trying to aggravate me, which means I must have hit a nerve somewhere... I assume it stems from this match.

The Cap instances are equally bad examples as the Batman ones, with the possible exception that he might have used his unbreakable shield to trip the Hulk. Hulk can survive in space... yet is vulnerable to KO gas? That fight has zero credibility no matter how you cut it.

Here I will use your own statements to clearly illustrate my point:
"DS does not need to 'ground and pound', or blow away or dismember Wolverine. I repeat, all he needs is a few well placed movements and strikes to the heart area, to cut off that precious blood supply to the brain, to merely knock him out."

"Yes, in reality when fighters square off, there guards are so high, that such maneuverability will be nearly impossible if not minimal."

You think Wolverine won't be doing the same thing? Trying to go for a vitals strike? Naturally he will, likely both will land blows, as I said earlier, it is exceedingly hard to avoid in a battle with edged weapons.

Once again, Slade's 'battle smarts' get brought up. I tell you, a 5 year old could tell what Wolverine is trying to do, preventing it from happening is the real challenge. The only way he could do so is if he were far beyond Wolvy in skill or physical attributes - which we have determined, he is not.

#67 baneblade

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:08 PM

What does what the creator say have to do with anything? What he says isn't canon, only what's written/drawn is.

I have given you people who rival Zatanna's and Green Lantern's powers, just look at the list. Besides, Wolverine could take Green Lantern and Zatanna too if Green Lantern tried to go hand to hand with him, and Wolverine knew that Zatanna's spells had to be spoken.


- So, if the creator is giving some 'semblance' to a confusing or tangled layout, it isn't canon. To me it is. He is not exactly 'twisting the tale into something else', merely explaining what his logic was. I agree with him wholly. Unless, one creator's barrage clashes with another's on the same subject, it is pretty much standard, to me.

- Allow me to state the sequence per scribe again: Stroke relied mostly on their reluctance, and confusion, after the sudden salvo. While I don't buy his PIS that Lantern saw his comrades fall within seconds, and got 'conflicted' in the heat of the moment, I have to go with it. It could also be real. Lantern's human at the core after all. Hence, Rayner was only temporarily 'overwhelmed' (the word use to describe his state) by seeing his team falling like cards, in the matter of seconds, and didn't react in a balanced way.
Taking this cue, I am re-stating that Wolverine can not fall them like a pack of cards in seconds. I just don't see it happening. That is why I asked you about his experience in fighting a group, in which he fell them in seconds. There is none.

- That is why I tried to remind everyone on the posts that Stroke usually plays it safe, and lets the smallest of body movements work wonders. He would not see himself 'paining' Wolverine to submission, but he will see himself 'knocking him out' by one of many possible methods.

- Folks rivaling Zatanna's powers? She effects (or is billed to effect) realities and things with a word, only said backwards, an art she has mastered in time. There is nothing virtually, more powerful than that. Again, there is that grey area and a new door we are opening. Lets not do that. The part where you state that Wolverine would take her out, if he knew she spoke the spells, while dealing with Flash and Lantern? Sure. Not happening in this universe it ain't. That's my thought.

- Wolverine has been known to take on stronger, more powerful opponents (Hulk?), not smarter ones, speaking in terms of fight reliability. Stroke has. Plus, you keep ignoring the fact, that even the folks you mentioned on the list can not utilize more than half their brain to effect the results Stroke gets with minimal effort. Its about the brains right there, not just beastly brawn.

#68 baneblade

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:21 PM

You seem to like the word 'Bro' a lot. Do you think that I find it offensive or that is bothers me? You might have me mistaken for someone else here. You seem to be intentionally trying to aggravate me, which means I must have hit a nerve somewhere... I assume it stems from this match.

The Cap instances are equally bad examples as the Batman ones, with the possible exception that he might have used his unbreakable shield to trip the Hulk. Hulk can survive in space... yet is vulnerable to KO gas? That fight has zero credibility no matter how you cut it.

Here I will use your own statements to clearly illustrate my point:
"DS does not need to 'ground and pound', or blow away or dismember Wolverine. I repeat, all he needs is a few well placed movements and strikes to the heart area, to cut off that precious blood supply to the brain, to merely knock him out."

"Yes, in reality when fighters square off, there guards are so high, that such maneuverability will be nearly impossible if not minimal."

You think Wolverine won't be doing the same thing? Trying to go for a vitals strike? Naturally he will, likely both will land blows, as I said earlier, it is exceedingly hard to avoid in a battle with edged weapons.

Once again, Slade's 'battle smarts' get brought up. I tell you, a 5 year old could tell what Wolverine is trying to do, preventing it from happening is the real challenge. The only way he could do so is if he were far beyond Wolvy in skill or physical attributes - which we have determined, he is not.


- Hmmm. Care to mention what I stated that 'intentionally aggravated you'? You are the one who resorted to the insults first, from what I can see, or understand. If I did say something, that ticked you off in the wrong manner, please let me know in your reply post. As for you hitting a nerve, no you didn't. Yes, the name calling is unacceptable. There are folks who resort to it right through posts and I can't stop them or reason enough with them, but just move on to the next post. As for 'bro', yup I just like to use it. Don't know why it is so out of expectation or place in the new world, but it is meant to impart respect. Some folks don't want it. So, I try to remember and not call them that anymore. Hope you don't mind it. As for mistaking you for someone else, don't worry, I am not mistaken.

- Hulk being downed by gas, Galactus getting the boot, Thanos imprisoning celestials, Seid beating the Source, Superman withstanding Seid, all PIS, but all that I accept. It seems you are fighting yourself here. You seem to go through the round of reading a book, and be at loggerheads with yourself if you do not accept the PIS. I personally feel that with Magneto's powers, Wolverine has no fighting chance in hell, yet another brother has just cited Wolverine's list of opponents with Magneto in it. Reason is simple: PIS allows all sorts of things. The smartest thing to do, inspite of citing it as PIS, is to accept it as it is a part of comic history. It is published, in the annals, and done.

- No a 5 yr. old won't know where an adam's apple, or solar plexus, or tendons are. Maybe a very few of them who grew up on 'taped pillow sleeping sessions' Mostly won't. A credible fighter, however, who has the reflexes to act on an other's, and improvise on the go, will. As for your argument of Wolverine's fighting skills matching upto Slade's, I am damn sure many folks on this forum think otherwise, and I have (subjectively speaking) seen it also. That there, though is the grey area we are debating on aren't we?

#69 baneblade

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:24 PM

Gotta go know brothers all. Will check back in tomorrow in case there are more posts.

#70 comic_book_fan

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:26 PM

Deathstroke doesn't react nine times faster than a human, he reacts instantaneously. There's a massive difference.

no his reflexes strength and speed was increased by 9 fold .

#71 comic_book_fan

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 04:44 PM

- So, if the creator is giving some 'semblance' to a confusing or tangled layout, it isn't canon. To me it is. He is not exactly 'twisting the tale into something else', merely explaining what his logic was. I agree with him wholly. Unless, one creator's barrage clashes with another's on the same subject, it is pretty much standard, to me.

- Allow me to state the sequence per scribe again: Stroke relied mostly on their reluctance, and confusion, after the sudden salvo. While I don't buy his PIS that Lantern saw his comrades fall within seconds, and got 'conflicted' in the heat of the moment, I have to go with it. It could also be real. Lantern's human at the core after all. Hence, Rayner was only temporarily 'overwhelmed' (the word use to describe his state) by seeing his team falling like cards, in the matter of seconds, and didn't react in a balanced way.
Taking this cue, I am re-stating that Wolverine can not fall them like a pack of cards in seconds. I just don't see it happening. That is why I asked you about his experience in fighting a group, in which he fell them in seconds. There is none.

- That is why I tried to remind everyone on the posts that Stroke usually plays it safe, and lets the smallest of body movements work wonders. He would not see himself 'paining' Wolverine to submission, but he will see himself 'knocking him out' by one of many possible methods.

- Folks rivaling Zatanna's powers? She effects (or is billed to effect) realities and things with a word, only said backwards, an art she has mastered in time. There is nothing virtually, more powerful than that. Again, there is that grey area and a new door we are opening. Lets not do that. The part where you state that Wolverine would take her out, if he knew she spoke the spells, while dealing with Flash and Lantern? Sure. Not happening in this universe it ain't. That's my thought.

- Wolverine has been known to take on stronger, more powerful opponents (Hulk?), not smarter ones, speaking in terms of fight reliability. Stroke has. Plus, you keep ignoring the fact, that even the folks you mentioned on the list can not utilize more than half their brain to effect the results Stroke gets with minimal effort. Its about the brains right there, not just beastly brawn.

wolverine beat the new hellfire club in original sin and he beat apocalypse's horsemen and darkriders at the same time after breaking apocalypse's control over him. he can fight teams as well and he is verry stealthy he could take down this clumsy jla team.

#72 sirmethos

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 05:19 PM

no his reflexes strength and speed was increased by 9 fold .


No, they weren't.

His strength is stated as "the strength of 10 men", that is not a 9-fold increase. His reflexes are far more than 9 times faster, and the same goes for his speed(both movement and combat speed).

#73 force_echo

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 11:29 PM

- So, if the creator is giving some 'semblance' to a confusing or tangled layout, it isn't canon. To me it is. He is not exactly 'twisting the tale into something else', merely explaining what his logic was. I agree with him wholly. Unless, one creator's barrage clashes with another's on the same subject, it is pretty much standard, to me.

- Allow me to state the sequence per scribe again: Stroke relied mostly on their reluctance, and confusion, after the sudden salvo. While I don't buy his PIS that Lantern saw his comrades fall within seconds, and got 'conflicted' in the heat of the moment, I have to go with it. It could also be real. Lantern's human at the core after all. Hence, Rayner was only temporarily 'overwhelmed' (the word use to describe his state) by seeing his team falling like cards, in the matter of seconds, and didn't react in a balanced way.
Taking this cue, I am re-stating that Wolverine can not fall them like a pack of cards in seconds. I just don't see it happening. That is why I asked you about his experience in fighting a group, in which he fell them in seconds. There is none.

- That is why I tried to remind everyone on the posts that Stroke usually plays it safe, and lets the smallest of body movements work wonders. He would not see himself 'paining' Wolverine to submission, but he will see himself 'knocking him out' by one of many possible methods.

- Folks rivaling Zatanna's powers? She effects (or is billed to effect) realities and things with a word, only said backwards, an art she has mastered in time. There is nothing virtually, more powerful than that. Again, there is that grey area and a new door we are opening. Lets not do that. The part where you state that Wolverine would take her out, if he knew she spoke the spells, while dealing with Flash and Lantern? Sure. Not happening in this universe it ain't. That's my thought.

- Wolverine has been known to take on stronger, more powerful opponents (Hulk?), not smarter ones, speaking in terms of fight reliability. Stroke has. Plus, you keep ignoring the fact, that even the folks you mentioned on the list can not utilize more than half their brain to effect the results Stroke gets with minimal effort. Its about the brains right there, not just beastly brawn.

Yeah, she's powerful, but Deathstroke didn't face that power, he incapacitated her before she could use them, Wolverine could do the exact same thing. Again, there's nothing in that battle even remotely impressive that wolverine could not do. If Deathstroke went one to one against Kyle Rayner without retarded PIS, Rayner would slaughter deathstroke, it would be a massive stomp with no chance of deathstroke coming out on top.

#74 baneblade

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:12 AM

Yeah, she's powerful, but Deathstroke didn't face that power, he incapacitated her before she could use them, Wolverine could do the exact same thing. Again, there's nothing in that battle even remotely impressive that wolverine could not do. If Deathstroke went one to one against Kyle Rayner without retarded PIS, Rayner would slaughter deathstroke, it would be a massive stomp with no chance of deathstroke coming out on top.


G'day Echo.

I know what Zatanna or Lantern will do when they get to use their power. The key is, in the implications of the fight. It only depicts what Stroke does impeccably. Now, we finally step into another area of discussion: You state that Wolverine would do the same thing, yet there is no evidence in comic history of him ever accomplishing this, that is; barricading an opponent's use of power, leave alone barricading multiple opponents. Thing is, Echo, it seems, most brothers or fellow ferretters here have a notion, that character and ability can be separated. They can not. Perhaps you already know this.

In that regard, Wolverine is 'mostly' not a level headed fighter, specially when he is agitated. We have seen it in the comics. Hook is when he is in his 'berserker mode', he has never faced an opponent who (usually) keeps his cool in the heat of battle, and who is absolutely precise in his execution.

It is not about the powers and fighting skills only, it is about routine execution. If Stroke could stop a faster, or a more powerful opponent before he gets to use that ability, it is a feat I would associate with Stroke more than I would with Batman. More on this in my reply to Comic Book fan.

#75 baneblade

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 07:20 AM

wolverine beat the new hellfire club in original sin and he beat apocalypse's horsemen and darkriders at the same time after breaking apocalypse's control over him. he can fight teams as well and he is verry stealthy he could take down this clumsy jla team.


I do not know bro, if the Hell Fire Club 'spar' is actually a win. Basically, one of their own blew the 'hell' out of the club to escape and knocked both Wolverine and his then standing opponent into the middle of next week. More than that, in both these instances, I still don't see these guys as credible opponents as Flash or Green Lantern. I also do not see them posing the threat in the time frame, that Zatanna, Flash or Lantern would. They are mostly melee fighters, with mad-ons to trounce, rather than coherent, articulate fighters that effect powers like Flash or Lantern. True all characters make mistakes, especially when in the heat of battle, but I would give Flash and Lantern leverage over your cited characters any day. Plus, the Hell Fire Club thing is doubtful as a credible win. True, he got em', but one of them still stood, and even had time to effect a salvo knocking Rine and his opponent silly. An OK example but one that still doesnot match time-wise, battle cred wise to the Stroke fights.

Check out even the instance when Stroke battles the Titans members, with Nightwing in the lead. Stroke merely shifts his frame by fractions of an inch, apperaing as if still standing, to let one of the most credible fighters, Batgirl lose her coherence and fall flat on her back. That is something I am hinting at in the fight we are debating on. Stroke avoided a fighter who lives to mimic body language and chart movements accordingly, on the fly, not with prep. Wolverine's movements in berserker mode or otherwise, have hardly been this articulate and calculated. He is a land and hit kind of guy, not an avert, capitalize, and then hit fella. (Mostly).

I am sorry that we are in the grey zone of discussion, where you see it one way, and I see it another. In that case, if the next post unveils it like so, we will call it a day in our discussion, since we will only be going in circles from there on.

#76 comic_book_fan

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 09:27 AM

No, they weren't.

His strength is stated as "the strength of 10 men", that is not a 9-fold increase. His reflexes are far more than 9 times faster, and the same goes for his speed(both movement and combat speed).

no it says in the dc hand book and on just about everyother power list that his attributes were increased nearly 10 fold that means almost 10 times what is almost ten 9 or 9.5 at best you could argue exactly 10 but no more i know his feats would make appear better but that does not matter because everyone has moments where they seem better then they are.

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 01:06 PM

still no one has addressed this issue

I would like to point out that Deathstroke's new armor for the new 52 is completely made of volatile promethium. It is basically the DC equal to adamantium. Plus it has properties like vibranium in absorbing energy capabilities.

So Wolverine might not even be able to cut through the armor

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Posted 31 May 2012 - 01:16 PM

no it says in the dc hand book and on just about everyother power list that his attributes were increased nearly 10 fold that means almost 10 times what is almost ten 9 or 9.5 at best you could argue exactly 10 but no more i know his feats would make appear better but that does not matter because everyone has moments where they seem better then they are.

Well he has the upper hand on strength here as well.

Stroke has the strength to rip a door of an airliner at 40,000 feet with one arm. He has the strength to cut through the wing of the batplane with one swipe of his sword.

He has the same marksmanship as bullseye.

His durability allowed him to have a ship dropped on top of him.

His reaction time has allowed him to strike Flash on multiple occasions.

His planning in battle near top tier in comics.

So it all comes down to the fight. Deathstroke may not be able to do it easily but he could incapacitate Wolverine through numerous methods (ending the fight) or kill Wolverine by cutting his head off but striking to vertebrea in Logan's neck.

Deathstroke is simply the superior fighter here.

#79 KidStranglehold

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 06:14 PM

Yoooo......LOL! Sorry for bumping this thread DSkill, but this dude so ripped off a thread I created on comicvine back in 2011.
http://www.comicvine...ke-read/564739/

Everything is totally the same, he basically copied and paste. He didn't even write the setup himself. LMAO! It's okay though, just wanted people to know. ;)

#80 DSkillz

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Posted 08 March 2013 - 07:10 PM

Is that so? That's good to know. Thanks for this. Next time, though, shoot one of us a PM.

I may have to check for this in the future, and maybe even check some more matches of his.





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