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Match 11736 Wolverine vs. Deathstroke

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#41 Callisto

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 03:15 PM

Match Final Results
USER RATINGS
D Not much of a setup. This is more for the Rumbles.
B Basic, but effective.
C Pretty basic.
SCORE
Wolverine: 33
Deathstroke: 13
FPA: 2.0


#42 comic_book_fan

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Posted 28 May 2012 - 05:38 PM

wolverine has fought whole teams before.

#43 LoneWolf

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:20 AM

Batman has taken out the JLA as well before, so basically it's not that impressive any more. Wolverine > Batman = DS


Also, Punisher, DD etc.. fighting Wolverine is ALWAYS going to result in Wolverine losing, the writers have to write it that way. Wolverine can take the beating and survive (Marvel doesn't have to kill off a main character this way), whereas if Wolvy wins... damn "How can we bring Frank or Matt back to life now...?

#44 baneblade

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:21 AM

Batman has taken out the JLA as well before, so basically it's not that impressive any more. Wolverine > Batman = DS


Also, Punisher, DD etc.. fighting Wolverine is ALWAYS going to result in Wolverine losing, the writers have to write it that way. Wolverine can take the beating and survive (Marvel doesn't have to kill off a main character this way), whereas if Wolvy wins... damn "How can we bring Frank or Matt back to life now...?


1) Batman has NEVER taken the JLA out, where there was Green Lantern, Flash, and Zatanna involved, all at the same time, in a team-up attack against one. If he has, and I somehow missed the sequence, please mention it here.

2) What teams has Wolverine 'taken on' exactly? Again, the teams in question must have members equal in ability and power to Zatanna, Green Lantern and Flash.

3) I do not accept writers PIS, but 'be-grudgingly' accept it. It is standard, it is published. Unless there is another writer's reference going against it, the reference stands and has to be accepted.

In addition to this, you guys completely side tracked out of the stated fact that in a cross-over, Stroke has been depicted dropping Wolverine.

Go ahead bros, if you can, and state the smartest, or the most tactical and powerful folks or units Wolverine has beaten in hand to hand combat and then we can talk.

#45 LoneWolf

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 08:26 AM

Come back when Deathstroke takes on someone like this, then we'll talk.

Posted Image

Keep in mind Wolverine started his career fighting the Hulk. No PIS involved. Without PIS, DS would last less than 0.5 seconds against the JLA. Hell, they wouldn't even have a comic series since Superman and Flash would speed blitz every single foe they faced. Regardless, in the universe that Deathstrokes stories take place in, a slightly more enhanced individual than Captain America.. can take on a team containing at least 5 planetary destroying powerhouses.

Lantern could instantly kill DS.. as long as he's not an incomprehensible idiot and tries to melee him, DS specialty and only means of attack.

Superman, Manhunter, WW etc... fly at him, punch at lightspeed, game over... I guess somehow despite having trained and battle for years they can;t grasp this simple concept which could win 99% of their battles.

Zatanna: Why does she ever leave the watchtower? She can work just fine from all the way across the planet.

"Help Zatanna... we're getting our @sses kicked by ________ (fill in the blank)" ....."Oh really? __________ si on erom!" How do you lose with powers like that??? That is the biggest question of all....

#46 baneblade

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

Come back when Deathstroke takes on someone like this, then we'll talk.

Posted Image

Keep in mind Wolverine started his career fighting the Hulk. No PIS involved. Without PIS, DS would last less than 0.5 seconds against the JLA. Hell, they wouldn't even have a comic series since Superman and Flash would speed blitz every single foe they faced. Regardless, in the universe that Deathstrokes stories take place in, a slightly more enhanced individual than Captain America.. can take on a team containing at least 5 planetary destroying powerhouses.

Lantern could instantly kill DS.. as long as he's not an incomprehensible idiot and tries to melee him, DS specialty and only means of attack.

Superman, Manhunter, WW etc... fly at him, punch at lightspeed, game over... I guess somehow despite having trained and battle for years they can;t grasp this simple concept which could win 99% of their battles.

Zatanna: Why does she ever leave the watchtower? She can work just fine from all the way across the planet.

"Help Zatanna... we're getting our @sses kicked by ________ (fill in the blank)" ....."Oh really? __________ si on erom!" How do you lose with powers like that??? That is the biggest question of all....


I have read the issue, and therefore, it is a very very poor reference to state Wolverine's abilities bro. For example, the following questions stem up:

1) So, did Wolverine win?
2) Was it a draw?
3) Did Wolverine even physically face Galactus in this issue?

If the answer is yes to any of these questions, perhaps, Wolverine might get the benefit of a little doubt.

Now, you have been arguing about Stroke's feats or other things being PIS. I have told you, and I will re-state bro: I do not like or accept PIS, but I 'be-grudgingly' accept it. So, I don't accept it by mind n' heart, but my mind then, eventually accepts it, since it is published, part of the story, and ultimately an occurrence that you just can not sidelined with personal opinion. Stroke did those things, they will stand. Your opinion doesnot them moot make.

Now bro, in the interest of fairness of opinion even, it would have been cool to state at least the cover you showed is the ultimate PIS, but you didn't. Be fair bro, all characters should be weighed using the same scale. I await your reply.

#47 LoneWolf

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 12:45 PM

Alright, I finally got around to reading the battle where Slade "Beat" the "JLA". Turns out it was just Green Arrow, Flash, Zatanna and Hawkman and a total 'noob' with a GL ring in that fight. No Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman or Manhunter. That's cannot really be called the JLA as none of their real power players were present. That Green Lantern, who tried to punch Slade, is a very sad example indeed. That is like Storm running up to Wolverine instead of flying up and using her powers. Why didn't he just instantly shield all of his teammates, do they even train whatsoever?

Flash being struck in melee is pretty doubtful as well, to him the blade should have been moving at the speed of molasses and he should have been able to dodge effortlessly, a punch or blade strike moves no faster than 50 mph... tell me he can't percieve and avoid that when he can dodge an -IN PROGRESS- explosion moving 1,000s of MPH.

Logan did battle the Fantastic 4 and with a roster that arguably could beat that JLA roster.

#48 kainboa

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:26 PM

That Green Lantern, who tried to punch Slade, is a very sad example indeed.

That particular Green Lantern, is Kyle Rayner, the guy who later becomes Ion, of course, this fight is relatively early in his career, from what I remember at least.

Flash being struck in melee is pretty doubtful as well

Flash regularly fights against enemies whom he should have no trouble avoiding, yet he gets hit every so often, it's yet another instance of the character not using their powers to their full potential.

#49 baneblade

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:29 PM

Alright, I finally got around to reading the battle where Slade "Beat" the "JLA". Turns out it was just Green Arrow, Flash, Zatanna and Hawkman and a total 'noob' with a GL ring in that fight. No Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman or Manhunter. That's cannot really be called the JLA as none of their real power players were present. That Green Lantern, who tried to punch Slade, is a very sad example indeed. That is like Storm running up to Wolverine instead of flying up and using her powers. Why didn't he just instantly shield all of his teammates, do they even train whatsoever?

Flash being struck in melee is pretty doubtful as well, to him the blade should have been moving at the speed of molasses and he should have been able to dodge effortlessly, a punch or blade strike moves no faster than 50 mph... tell me he can't percieve and avoid that when he can dodge an -IN PROGRESS- explosion moving 1,000s of MPH.

Logan did battle the Fantastic 4 and with a roster that arguably could beat that JLA roster.

  • This bro, has been discussed before, in spades. It was a fight that not only put Stroke on the map, or rather, helped him reemerge as a major fighting villain, but was the talk of the comic goers’ worldwide. See, call it PIS or not, Metlzer made it believable (from his end anyways) by stating, that he fight in the matter of a few seconds. Stroke used Flash’ resiliency, Zatanna’s hesitation, Hawkman’s mad on fury, Arrow’s (comparatively) inadept hand to hand, Ralph’s mad on attack, Atom’s poor timing and Lantern’s confusion against them well, all in the matter of a few seconds. If you see it in that time frame, then perhaps, it is possible, in comic terms. After all, Stroke uses more of his brain in the heat of combat than any f the other people in this entire post, period. I mentioned this bro, specifically, that do not undermine, or under estimate that ability. It is what really makes Deathstroke dangerous. By the by, there were no ‘noobs’ in that line up. Again, it is quite surprising, that you would simply discard the entire lineup just like that, where this lineup, whilst not having the big three, is still powerful enough in regards to co-ordination, experience, and even power set. (Re-stating that having Flash and Lantern on the same team would mow down an army of opponents, leave alone one opponent).
Bro, you simply just can’t discard this feat!
  • Wolverine taking on FF is not as impressive a feat as this JLA line up. Any
FF lineup would have their hands full with em’. As you yourself state; Zatanna doesn’t even need to be down there. Wholly agree. Only thing is, she was just there at the wrong place at the wrong time. Plus, what happened when Logan faced em’? Did he drop em? Did he just drop, or did he pull a commendable draw? Lets hear it on this one as well.
  • You are leaving a lot of loose ends there bro:
A – Wolverine vs Galactus. I read the issue. You though, have cited it as a reference, to give Logan leverage. So, is the leverage there or not? Is there something about the issue I don’t understand that substantiates Logan’s fight there?
B – You still haven’t commented on if that in any case, win, lose or draw, would be a major PIS.
C – You also never acknowledged that Stroke is the more level headed, faster, articulate and 10 steps ahead fighter

Sorry bro, as of this post, Stroke fairly, still takes this one.

#50 LoneWolf

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 01:53 PM

Invisible Woman alone could take a team like that, displaying that level of competency.

Flash runs smack into her shield, KO's himself. Put bubble in Zatanna's lungs, she can't talk, passes out. Just throw a spray of invisible projectiles in every direction, KOing everyone else.

GL tries to punch her, she grabs hand, turns his optic nerves invisible, beats him in h2h since that's what he seems to like even though he is holding an immeasurably powerful weapon on that hand.

Wolverine VS Galactus while being a ridiculous match up, is no worse than that JLA showing with all its facepalm logic holes.

Also, which bro were you talking about when you said: "This bro, has been discussed before, in spades."

If you were addressing me, it should have been phrased, "This, Bro, has been discussed before - in spades!"
Grammar is a cheap shot, but I am actually confused to whether you are addressing me, or calling Wolverine or Deathstroke a 'Bro'.

#51 baneblade

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 02:46 PM

Invisible Woman alone could take a team like that, displaying that level of competency.

Flash runs smack into her shield, KO's himself. Put bubble in Zatanna's lungs, she can't talk, passes out. Just throw a spray of invisible projectiles in every direction, KOing everyone else.

GL tries to punch her, she grabs hand, turns his optic nerves invisible, beats him in h2h since that's what he seems to like even though he is holding an immeasurably powerful weapon on that hand.

Wolverine VS Galactus while being a ridiculous match up, is no worse than that JLA showing with all its facepalm logic holes.

Also, which bro were you talking about when you said: "This bro, has been discussed before, in spades."

If you were addressing me, it should have been phrased, "This, Bro, has been discussed before - in spades!"
Grammar is a cheap shot, but I am actually confused to whether you are addressing me, or calling Wolverine or Deathstroke a 'Bro'.


Yup, you are the bro I was referring to.

I guess I didn't make myself that clear, perhaps in more ways than one.

The key is not in mentioning a match that has PIS written all over it. The key is in determining what was done, even in that PIS ridden match. Did Wolverine beat the FF? That is, Invisible woman included, with all her abilities as you have mentioned here and which we all know. If he did take down Invisible woman, who could take out all those JLA members according to you, with relative ease, and he also did the same, all at one time to the Thing, and Torch, then could you please mention how he did it?
- Did he beat them all?
- Did he fight just to a standstill?
- Was he beaten?
Again, you did mention the Galactus and Wolverine (vs.) issue as PIS, but I didn't see it that way. In fact, it was a good issue, that showed just what Galactus truly is. Technically, Wolverine didn't even get to spar with him. I don't recall each and every detail, and if there is something credible that Wolverine actually did in there, that involved directly confronting Galactus, then inspite of it being PIS, I would like to know of it. As I said, it was a while ago I read it.

Hence brother, even if you state PIS and cite the reference behind it, even if for comparison to another PIS angle, the reference has to have abilities that cut the opposite ability set. If there isn't anything like that, the reference is useless.

I will again remind you, that Stroke has on paper, in a cross over, beaten Wolverine. If you will call than PIS, you could, but you can cannot argue it happened, was agreed upon by talent of both DC and Marvel, and it will always stand as a reference, from my broad view of all things comic. That's my 2 cents bro.

#52 comic_book_fan

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:13 PM

deathstroke should have never beat flash on his best day this is pis to the highest level .
you claim you you do not except pis but flash sees superman in slow motion but a guy who only reacts 9 times faster then a normal human can tag him or any greenlantern for that matter this feat is far worse then spiderman beating firelord.
hell if deathstroke can beat the jla then spiderman can to he can react 40 times faster then normal humans so he could tag flash i guess lol sure i can't beat that feat but that feat never should have happened and he had prep time in that fight he doesn't have prep here just a picture he knows nothing about wolverine and he only has basic weapons he can't win here.

#53 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:20 PM

Deathstroke doesn't react nine times faster than a human, he reacts instantaneously. There's a massive difference.

#54 baneblade

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 03:33 PM

deathstroke should have never beat flash on his best day this is pis to the highest level .
you claim you you do not except pis but flash sees superman in slow motion but a guy who only reacts 9 times faster then a normal human can tag him or any greenlantern for that matter this feat is far worse then spiderman beating firelord.
hell if deathstroke can beat the jla then spiderman can to he can react 40 times faster then normal humans so he could tag flash i guess lol sure i can't beat that feat but that feat never should have happened and he had prep time in that fight he doesn't have prep here just a picture he knows nothing about wolverine and he only has basic weapons he can't win here.


If I faced an opponent in hand to hand in an impromptu Ju Jitsu match, who outweighed me, and was faster than me; would I be slated to lose that match? Perhaps. Now if I say, I would 'definitely lose that match, that would be wrong. Perhaps I would play my opponent better than he plays me, inspite of his physical advantages outweighing mine. Perhaps I would feign a hip toss movement, yet make into a hip toss/ arm lock, or stretch things with a compound movement, making it all into a triangle coke, etc.

Brother mine, we are walking in a gray area here, not black and white. Black white would say I would lose, and I Deathstroke would lose, as would a host of many other characters. That is what comic writers do bro, place these gray lines for us, and then use them to effect PIS, and draw out these impossible wins. Example: How can Spiderman beat a guy one on one who has all of his powers, and can sense his approach and is immune to his most potent tool, the spider-sense? I say the answer is in those grays, and most of all, in the difference of how they have been shown to effect their powers. So why did Spiderman beat Sandman, Rhino and the Sinister Six? Brains bro. He was more resourceful, and smarter. At least that is what his scribes have been pushing in his victories many a time.

Stroke thinks waaaay ahead and is waaaaay smarter bro. If you pour through those panels again, he said 'different mask, same mistakes'; I never said he beat their speed, or their power. He just didn't allow them the co-ordination and time to use them.That is why I have been repeating, no other character even this far into the posts has that 1 ability, that even Batman will have a hard time countering. Spiderman or FF were not 'born to fight' or think 10 steps ahead in the heat of battle. Slade does. How can you discount that fact?

Lets logically take it all down a notch. You are saying the JLA angle is PIS. (I said whether it is or not, you simply can't make a conjecture against it, or simply sideline it. It stands as a feat). Would Slade take 3 opponents? Or two? Or 1 Wolverine? I know Wolverine t have been on the ropes with a less smarter opponent. Castle, DD, Shaw, for eg. Slade is waaay smarter than them, has the inane ability to improvise on the fly, and knows pressure points that Wolverine obviously didn't take the time to become knowledgeable in, given the comic tales. Plus, the added disadvantage that he has gone nuts going into the attack works against him. Slade will see that he can't hurt him, nor slow him, and will also see that he is fighting in a fit, to only shorten the fight. Slade will improvise, lure him into that window of that marginal advantage that he has, and strike a staff into his heart, or solar plexus, or jugular veins, to either slow him down or but that precious blood supply to the brain.

I am not saying that is what is likely to happen. I am only saying, given their tendencies, their opponents, and their feats, that is the way it definitely will happen.

#55 force_echo

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 05:33 PM

As much as I'm surprised to say this, Lonewolf is making sense. In an issue where the JLA were behaving that retarded and Invisible Woman had a cursory knowledge of their powers, Invisible woman would be able to take out all of them.

In which comic does it say that Deathstroke has instant reflexes? I'm calling bullshit on that one.

EDIT: I bet if there was a fight Kyle Rayner vs. [insert any character not from DC here], and you bring up Deathstroke almost beating Rayner, Baneblade will call it PIS.

#56 LoneWolf

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Posted 29 May 2012 - 10:15 PM

Crossovers are absolutely not canon. They have just ridiculous instances of bad writing, eg Batman beating Hulk in pure melee.

The fact is that both characters have low showings (Wolvy=DD, Punisher; DS=Nightwing, Batman). Slade might be a quick thinker, but he is not some martial arts god who is going to dodge every blow. They will both take hits. As you can see by Slade's missing eye... his regen sure ain't on Wolvie's level. It is very likely that they close to melee range and trade hits. DS goes for a quick decapitation strike and *surprise* the head doesn't come off, and he finds him self looking at his own guts lying on the ground.

That's the way I see it playing out since Slade would not know to avoid melee in this case. He certainly doesn't ever avoid it in any showings I've seen. They melee, Wolvy is arguably a better fighter, definitely fast enough to tag him, not going to stop or slow down, can't be dropped, doesn't feel pain, DS can;t just run and hide etc...

All factors point towards Wolverine winning here.

#57 baneblade

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 07:56 AM

Crossovers are absolutely not canon. They have just ridiculous instances of bad writing, eg Batman beating Hulk in pure melee.

The fact is that both characters have low showings (Wolvy=DD, Punisher; DS=Nightwing, Batman). Slade might be a quick thinker, but he is not some martial arts god who is going to dodge every blow. They will both take hits. As you can see by Slade's missing eye... his regen sure ain't on Wolvie's level. It is very likely that they close to melee range and trade hits. DS goes for a quick decapitation strike and *surprise* the head doesn't come off, and he finds him self looking at his own guts lying on the ground.

That's the way I see it playing out since Slade would not know to avoid melee in this case. He certainly doesn't ever avoid it in any showings I've seen. They melee, Wolvy is arguably a better fighter, definitely fast enough to tag him, not going to stop or slow down, can't be dropped, doesn't feel pain, DS can;t just run and hide etc...

All factors point towards Wolverine winning here.


Sorry bro. Seems you either missed the comic, or forgot about it. DS = Batman, is not a small statement, if that is what you were implying. Wolverine = DD, Punisher could work, but just doesn't. DD's had his instances, and Punisher almost always had his with Wolverine, embarrassing the hell out of him.

To make a point moot, or add to it, Deathstroke has dropped Batman, convincingly, one on one, sans prep, and without aid.

He takes on multiple opponents routinely, ones with super powers, Wolverine doesnot. He is more 'adjusted' to expect the worst that Wolverine.

Again, the non-canon argument. There are crossovers written for the sake of crossovers. But there are others, well crafted. Titans/X-men was one of the better outings. Sorry, you are just turning the other way, even though the events and the fight match up perfectly with what Slade does routinely. I am only doing the match. Adds up nicely. You could choose to turn the other way, but that doesnot make the published fact go away. As for Batman 'beating hulk'? Sorry bro, but that's the way characters were written at the time. There was nothing, nothing out of context in that story. That was an 81' tale. Captain America, who has been deemed Batman's physical equal, in terms of physicality, inspite of the serum, has dropped Hulk before, both in the early 80s, (or late 70s,) and in the mid 90s. He did it with his fighting skills too, utlizing pressure point knowledge to Hulk off his footing. Batman, during that tale, in the silver era, did nothing more, and in fact, had to resort to gas to weaken Hulk before knocking him out. Sorry, but again, that tale had nothing horrendously out of place, anything more than Marvel themselves did with Hulk by having him drop to Cap, or others. You argument there is moot bro.

To Force Echo: You state that Invisible woman would drop JLA, but added a very crucial thing yourself, limiting that statement : 'if she had cursory knowledge about them'. Invisible Woman has powers, and can effect them from a long range. Although I do not agree she will drop them, (seeing her previous outings with more 'incoherent' villains), you yourself state that 'knowledge' of their powers will help her take them down. So can Bats, or Ghul, or others, who had prior 'knowledge'. You are introducing a whole new scenario here, one of intense pre-planning. Slade did not have that luxury, plus he is not endowed with long range powers. That only makes his feat more impressive. True, he expected them, but didn't have a day to lay out a plan. In fact, per Brad Meltzer, he did it in a short frame, and laid out several contingencies. he also didn't know the exact members who were coming. Which means, that once he was on the street, he improvised those contingencies in part, according to their expected actions, and in part right off the fly. That makes the feat (whether classified as PIS or not) more impressive. Sorry, Lonewolf's argument is still not valid.

Again:
Points you should/could agree on:
- DS has dropped Bats in one on one on the fly combat
- Routinely taken on super powered teams. Again, you could purposefully turn your head away from this, accuse it if being PIS,
but it can not be discounted. It is routine, has been on paper, and it stands. It is a feat Wolverine still has to show, if he can get
past being embarassed by Castle first, pull a lack luster outcome with DD or Cap.
Lets remember, DD doesnot have long range powers like Invisible Woman, who you folks are trying to push in regards to being able to accomplish the same feat of dropping JLA members
- Thinks way ahead of Wolverine, DD or Punisher in terms of contingency, in heat of combat. Even if you refute this, you can not refute that he has the ability to use more of his brain than any other character mentioned on the list.
- Has dropped Wolverine on paper before, a feat you could take or turn your head away from, but which I just can not ignore, and which is in perfect tandem, a decade later almost, with what Stroke does on and off.

I will throw in a few extras here too. DD has a healing factor of his own, which only means, with his aversion skills, he will last just long enough, to pull out the most crucial straws in this fight.

Sorry, while you have tried to substantiate Wolverine's accomplishments going into this fight, your claim, that he is 'unstoppable, feels no pain, etc.' still does not show him dropping to a well placed pressure hit, or a strike to the heart or the jugular, to slow him down, or just put him to sleep. My simple bet, if it happened with an opponent far inferior in H2H to Slade, it will most certainly happen here. Even if I do not drum up that argument, just the stats alone work against wolverine.

Slade will win this in what we will call Flawless Victory.

#58 force_echo

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 10:41 AM

Sorry bro. Seems you either missed the comic, or forgot about it. DS = Batman, is not a small statement, if that is what you were implying. Wolverine = DD, Punisher could work, but just doesn't. DD's had his instances, and Punisher almost always had his with Wolverine, embarrassing the hell out of him.

To make a point moot, or add to it, Deathstroke has dropped Batman, convincingly, one on one, sans prep, and without aid.

He takes on multiple opponents routinely, ones with super powers, Wolverine doesnot. He is more 'adjusted' to expect the worst that Wolverine.

Again, the non-canon argument. There are crossovers written for the sake of crossovers. But there are others, well crafted. Titans/X-men was one of the better outings. Sorry, you are just turning the other way, even though the events and the fight match up perfectly with what Slade does routinely. I am only doing the match. Adds up nicely. You could choose to turn the other way, but that doesnot make the published fact go away. As for Batman 'beating hulk'? Sorry bro, but that's the way characters were written at the time. There was nothing, nothing out of context in that story. That was an 81' tale. Captain America, who has been deemed Batman's physical equal, in terms of physicality, inspite of the serum, has dropped Hulk before, both in the early 80s, (or late 70s,) and in the mid 90s. He did it with his fighting skills too, utlizing pressure point knowledge to Hulk off his footing. Batman, during that tale, in the silver era, did nothing more, and in fact, had to resort to gas to weaken Hulk before knocking him out. Sorry, but again, that tale had nothing horrendously out of place, anything more than Marvel themselves did with Hulk by having him drop to Cap, or others. You argument there is moot bro.

To Force Echo: You state that Invisible woman would drop JLA, but added a very crucial thing yourself, limiting that statement : 'if she had cursory knowledge about them'. Invisible Woman has powers, and can effect them from a long range. Although I do not agree she will drop them, (seeing her previous outings with more 'incoherent' villains), you yourself state that 'knowledge' of their powers will help her take them down. So can Bats, or Ghul, or others, who had prior 'knowledge'. You are introducing a whole new scenario here, one of intense pre-planning. Slade did not have that luxury, plus he is not endowed with long range powers. That only makes his feat more impressive. True, he expected them, but didn't have a day to lay out a plan. In fact, per Brad Meltzer, he did it in a short frame, and laid out several contingencies. he also didn't know the exact members who were coming. Which means, that once he was on the street, he improvised those contingencies in part, according to their expected actions, and in part right off the fly. That makes the feat (whether classified as PIS or not) more impressive. Sorry, Lonewolf's argument is still not valid.

Again:
Points you should/could agree on:
- DS has dropped Bats in one on one on the fly combat
- Routinely taken on super powered teams. Again, you could purposefully turn your head away from this, accuse it if being PIS,
but it can not be discounted. It is routine, has been on paper, and it stands. It is a feat Wolverine still has to show, if he can get
past being embarassed by Castle first, pull a lack luster outcome with DD or Cap.
Lets remember, DD doesnot have long range powers like Invisible Woman, who you folks are trying to push in regards to being able to accomplish the same feat of dropping JLA members
- Thinks way ahead of Wolverine, DD or Punisher in terms of contingency, in heat of combat. Even if you refute this, you can not refute that he has the ability to use more of his brain than any other character mentioned on the list.
- Has dropped Wolverine on paper before, a feat you could take or turn your head away from, but which I just can not ignore, and which is in perfect tandem, a decade later almost, with what Stroke does on and off.

I will throw in a few extras here too. DD has a healing factor of his own, which only means, with his aversion skills, he will last just long enough, to pull out the most crucial straws in this fight.

Sorry, while you have tried to substantiate Wolverine's accomplishments going into this fight, your claim, that he is 'unstoppable, feels no pain, etc.' still does not show him dropping to a well placed pressure hit, or a strike to the heart or the jugular, to slow him down, or just put him to sleep. My simple bet, if it happened with an opponent far inferior in H2H to Slade, it will most certainly happen here. Even if I do not drum up that argument, just the stats alone work against wolverine.

Slade will win this in what we will call Flawless Victory.

Deathstroke does have cursory knowledge of their powers. He realizes that the GL ring operates on willpower, that Zatanna needs to say her spells for them to work. If Invisible woman had the same knowledge DS did, she would wipe the floor with the JLA too.

"Deathstroke has beaten Batman"
Wolverine has gone up against Hulk in a serious fight, and has beaten Iron Fist in H2H. Iron Fist who is undoubtedly better than Batman at H2H.

Also, Punisher always embarrassing Wolverine is plain out wrong. Give some proof.

The fact that you said Wolverine doesn't regularly take on people with superpowers in laughably inaccurate. He has taken on more superpowers than Deathstroke has, by far.

The only canon crossover was JLA/Avengers. Other crossovers occur in an amalgam universe, automatically rendering them noncanon. Unless you're saying that canonically, the Marvel and DC universes are the same. Which is stupid.

Personally, I don't know who wins, but I'm just pointing out the inevitable wrong facts you carry with every argument you make.

#59 baneblade

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 11:29 AM

Deathstroke does have cursory knowledge of their powers. He realizes that the GL ring operates on willpower, that Zatanna needs to say her spells for them to work. If Invisible woman had the same knowledge DS did, she would wipe the floor with the JLA too.

"Deathstroke has beaten Batman"
Wolverine has gone up against Hulk in a serious fight, and has beaten Iron Fist in H2H. Iron Fist who is undoubtedly better than Batman at H2H.

Also, Punisher always embarrassing Wolverine is plain out wrong. Give some proof.

The fact that you said Wolverine doesn't regularly take on people with superpowers in laughably inaccurate. He has taken on more superpowers than Deathstroke has, by far.

The only canon crossover was JLA/Avengers. Other crossovers occur in an amalgam universe, automatically rendering them noncanon. Unless you're saying that canonically, the Marvel and DC universes are the same. Which is stupid.

Personally, I don't know who wins, but I'm just pointing out the inevitable wrong facts you carry with every argument you make.


Hmmm. 'Wrong facts with EVERY argument I make'. Again, direct, incorrect, and vague statements meant to perhaps insult than substantiate something. Even if it was a remote fact that some facts could be wrong,, saying that I state incorrect facts with 'every argument' is pretty vague. Respect your opinion though, and won't comment in kind.

Wrong facts such as?
- DS has faced teamups routinely?
- Has more use of his brain as an ability than improvisation, which counts for something, and which you have been ignoring?
- Is a more articulate fighter, and better 'improvising' tactician than Wolverine?


Wolverine's other feats, like facing off multiple super power opponents:
Wolverine has beaten Hulk? Yes. Surprised you didn't call that PIS. He did get the win once, via Hulk dropping into a gas line and passing out.That is one fight in which he 'won'. Mostly others, here was either a grey area or a loss.
- Beating Fist a feat compared to Stroke vs Batman? Grey area. I do not agree.
- Fist better than Bats: I do not agree
- Kindly give me instances where Wolverine faced off multiple super powered opponents. Please make sure the reference isn't lame. Example: Usually Flash and Lantern would mow down an army of opponents. Give me a feat or stat equal to that, or even something like Cyborg, Changeling, Raven or Starfire, on the same team.

- Wolverine vs Punisher. Hmmm. Here's one example:

http://www.comicaddi...s-punisher.html


For your other arguments:
- You say, DS had prior knowledge and Invisible Woman would wipe the floor with the JLA members, with the same knowledge. As direct as you are, you are still missing the whole point. IW is 'superpowered', has long range battle ability. DS does not. It makes his feat pretty impressive. Nay, more impressive.

- I never said DS didn't have prior knowledge. After all, they live and fight in the same universe. Its common sense more than it is common ground. Again, you are completely either missing the point wholly on purpose, or in the dangerous grey zone where you do not want to look at it: DS improvised in part pre-fight, and in part during fight. That is damn impressive, given there's Flash and Lantern in the mix.

- Technically, no crossovers are canon. Marvel put up their nose and denied the JLA/Avengers crossover as canon, only after initially stating it was canon. Owe it to the nosey back end folks for that drastic change. DC still stated it as canon. Hence, a 50/50 thing. Again, missing the whole point. Saying it was non-canon, but still seeing the battle happened in the same 'lines' defined in comics continuity could open a little room for common perception. I see past the barricades. You don't, that's your choice.

Sorry, in a straight up fight, I do not see Wolverine taking out Stroke. In a series of fights, he might land some lucky ones, and rack up a win or two, after a long series of fights.

DS still wins.

#60 Lunacyde

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Posted 30 May 2012 - 01:03 PM

For Slade to win he'd need to take advantage of the environment and some explosives or other powerful gear. Like a few have said a frontal assault is a poor choice unless he has something up his sleeves and it's not his style against someone who is the physical match Wolverine is. Not saying by any means Slade can't win, he's just going to have to do more than straight up brawl Logan to do it.





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