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Match 11548 Darkseid and Thanos vs. The Silver Surfer and Doctor Manhattan


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#101 force_echo

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 08:03 PM

That's all cool and everything, but noone's refuted that he can make radion yet. Legacy hasn't given proof that Surfer has taken a considerable amount of time "finding" Darkseid's weakness, or why Surfer can't just outspeed Darkseid until he finds this mythical concentration. The rest of his argument are points I have already refuted, and I'm not going back over stuff for people who can't read the first time.

#102 MarvelFan15

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:47 PM

Ugghh. All this debating is making me realize how far behind I am in my comics. I either need to start pirating or find someplace to subscribe to as soon as I'm able.

#103 sirmethos

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 09:49 PM

That's all cool and everything, but noone's refuted that he can make radion yet. Legacy hasn't given proof that Surfer has taken a considerable amount of time "finding" Darkseid's weakness, or why Surfer can't just outspeed Darkseid until he finds this mythical concentration. The rest of his argument are points I have already refuted, and I'm not going back over stuff for people who can't read the first time.


I'll try to respond to a few of the points you have made

"Oh really? Where's your proof that using cosmic awareness requires intense concentration? Because I looked on two different databases: Marvel wiki and the official Marvel Universe and they didn't say anything about that. Besides, if he needs time, he can make it by simply avoiding his foes."

Marvel wikia makes mention of his needing concentration to use his cosmic awareness

"Cosmic Senses: The Silver Surfer has certain cosmic-energy enhanced perceptions which enable him through concentration to become aware of the patterns of energy anywhere in the world[29]. These abilities allow him far-ranging vision (in space he can see people clearly over a light year away), the ability to see sub-atomic particles, superhuman hearing, the ability to detect fields, traces, and concentrations of energy and discern their natures[30]."

However, neither Marvel.wikia, nor Marvel.com, makes any mention of the ability to percieve the weaknesses of his opponents. Only the above quoted text for Marvel.wikia.

And this for Marvel.com "His senses enable him to detect objects and energies light years away, and to perceive matter and energy in subatomic detail; he can even see through time, and with concentration can achieve limited perception of past and future events in his general vicinity."


"Yeah, before his upgrade Dr. Doom stole his power, after his upgrade with Galactus, its explicitly said in Annihilation and I believe in a couple databases that no one can drain Surfer's power, because he is in full control of the power cosmic."

I've looked in Marvel.wikia, Marvel.com, Comicvine and wikipedia, and neither of them says that "no one can drain surfer's power", or that he has "full control of the Power Cosmic."

I couldn't find it in Annihilation either, but I'll admit that I only skimmed through the various issues(it would be a lot easier if you would give a specific issue for it)


Finally, for your point about Surfer creating a ton of Radion.

1. He can only create it if he actually knows the atomic build of the element(no proof has actually been given of his ability to simply 'sense' that).
and 2. Even if he creates Radion, it doesn't affect Darkseid simply by being there, and Darkseid could just as easily transmute it into something that is harmless to himself, or transport(teleport) it to another dimension, reality, or another point in time.

#104 MarvelFan15

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Posted 21 May 2012 - 10:06 PM

I've looked in Marvel.wikia, Marvel.com, Comicvine and wikipedia, and neither of them says that "no one can drain surfer's power", or that he has "full control of the Power Cosmic."

I couldn't find it in Annihilation either, but I'll admit that I only skimmed through the various issues(it would be a lot easier if you would give a specific issue for it)




Marvel.wikia (Marvel Comics Database) used to say exactly that; stating that mutants like Rogue and other energy-siphoners couldn't affect Surfer due to his innate control of the Power Cosmic. It appears to have been changed, however.

Finally, for your point about Surfer creating a ton of Radion.

1. He can only create it if he actually knows the atomic build of the element(no proof has actually been given of his ability to simply 'sense' that).


I believe this happened in his spat with Gladiator. Rather than trump him physically, Surfer just obtained some info via Cosmic Awareness regarding the makeup and weaknesses of Kallark's body, the proceeded to dump tons of radiation onto him.

#105 baneblade

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 07:34 AM

That's all cool and everything, but noone's refuted that he can make radion yet. Legacy hasn't given proof that Surfer has taken a considerable amount of time "finding" Darkseid's weakness, or why Surfer can't just outspeed Darkseid until he finds this mythical concentration. The rest of his argument are points I have already refuted, and I'm not going back over stuff for people who can't read the first time.


Hiyah Force. Lets put this to rest with a simple question and not go around trying to grab the tail from the far end. Thanos and Surfer have squared off before, numerous times, or, at least more than once, agree?
Agree.

Go ahead, once again, prove here that in at least 2 scuffles, or even more, if applicable, Thanos was downed by Surfer. Kindly refrain from using the extremely lame example you used last time. We will all wait and see what you bring up.

One of two things will happen after that:
1) if Surfer has indeed downed Thanos, he is up against two titans here.
2) If he hasn;t, you or anyone in the world, will not convince us an iota he will do it to Thanos X2 (categorically speaking as Side is in tow here)

Now, apart from the usual factoids: How simple for you to say that we quote Surfer's weakest outings against Seid's or Tahnos' strongest: WRROONNNNGGG. Surfer does have embarrassingly weak outings for a character 'stated' to be all what he is billed to be.

Fact is: And I repeat, Surfer is one of the greatest under achieving characters in comicdom period, not just Marvel. With all that slated power, being downed in such embarrassing ways and with such ease doesn't even allow room for excuses.

Take a cue form this Force: Batman once told Superman: You are the most powerful man on earth, you do not get the luxury of that excuse.

I have tried to save grace, and said that I always look at outcomes this way: stated powers + Character + feats/history = outcome

A power can be short falling because of a dent in character shown repeatedly through history. Even though you yourself have stated int he past, (when you were, along with a few other Surfer 'followers' making the usual round of excuses for him: 'Guy's a pacifist. Not only you, but others have done it as well) Then, how do you bring him entirely out of character, out of history, out of comic reality here, and give him a mad on? Wrong Force, way wrong. That is just like saying Superman will kill, or Spiderman will go down to pure brutality. Sorry, not believing it.

If you are so much for stated abilities, then too Surfer doesnot win. Surfer will 'improvide' you say, create Radon. Lets see how that plays out:

Surfer: Oops, they are attacking, full scale invasion. Manhattan's playing coy there (entirely character specific deduction), So, let me, ooops, folks dying down there. Super speed do your thing. 'Pacify' the multiple explosions to save lives, then I will fly and build some radon.

Thanos to Seid: I know him. He will extract something come right back. But he has to come in certain proximity.
Seid: Ok, no prob.

All within a few seconds, and Surfer lands right into multiple boom tubes being tossed randomly from pocket dimension to pocket dimension, while Thanos distracted him before he could get in close to Seid. All with a few seconds. Thanos and Seid are not 'slow pokes. They match reflexes with Surfer, and Superman.

If not that, and if we go with the stated abilities thing, Seid: Hmmm. Valuable power source that herald. Let me make him a more comfortable acquisition. Omega effect, with numerous results, further catapults Surfer into one of many realities, or makes him into
a cocoon, with all the cosmic spewing from it.

Stated powers: Seid's beams are unavoidable; they always land their target. Anything other than that is PIS. You have discarded many things too, calling it PIS. I wont do that. but I am trying now to push the 'power/stated abilities envelope' here. Seid's beams: always hit their target. How will Surfer, being a verified target, 'avoid' them? How will he avoid Thanos' salvo along with this. Plus, Thanos knows him. He will expect the worst and probably update Seid rather hastily while giving him the time of the world to 'improvise' himself.

So, back to square one:
Go ahead and tell us again, where, how many times did Surfer 'legibly' trounce Thanos. No out of context thing: Just both regular joes there.

Once again, if he hasn't, and Thanos is coupled with Seid here, then the argument ends right there. If you do bring up instance(s), then, we will go from there. (Remember, as a guideline for you, I will state, that both Starlin and Kirby have stated Thanos, and Seid, respectively as beings over other beings, meaning they are not Superman or Gladiator, which is one of the stated reasons for Surfer not being able to comprehend Thanos physiology in 'Gauntlet'). I will wait for your post.




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