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Match 11548 Darkseid and Thanos vs. The Silver Surfer and Doctor Manhattan


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#61 sirmethos

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 06:53 PM

To answer your question, as Megatron once put it:

"Why? Why CBUB? Why, of all the sites on the internet, do I decide to revitalize my membership to the one whose record of stupidity and bullying is legend? Because I'm an idiot, that's why!"


Glad you're finally starting to realize it yourself.

#62 force_echo

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 08:45 PM

I had a feeling you would cite this and try to push it as a legit Thanos Surfer battle. It would have been more honest of you to give the backdrop of how this folded. Even if you didn't, things are in a context where one look tells anyone, even a comic casual fan, that things are out of place in these images. Did Surfer and Thanos have their powers? If they did, lets say, why fight using swords and knives? Is that the way Thanos and Surfer wage their conventional battles?

Posted Image

This scan illustrates conventional Surfer and Thanos settings. It is also typical how it ends.

Sorry, I know your displayed example is not a classic, normal settings, 100% battle sequence. If anything, it is otherwise. Good try though, but not a convincing, and rather 'otherworldly' layout. Why not explain why they were using swords and pans n' stuff? It would only help clarify things for you. Typical Thanos or typical surfer fights: expense of power, the immediate and realistic approach, eflecting the power they each yield.

As for your concern of Seid 'tapping' into the Source, sorry, no go. New Gods' nature is such that when a New God is expended, the SOurce Wall tethers the souls, and consequent power. Only the 'powerfu' New Gods, or ones supplemented by the Force can weild that power in spades, ala Seid. It is their nature, it is not an extra. In fact, Starlin's account of the ongoings was quite muffled too, as Seid should instead, have been immediately powered due to the suden tilt in energies, and re-channeling thereof. I guess we are two folks looking at the same thing in different ways.

Tribunal < Source. I never said it due to Source 'empowering or creating the DC Universe'. I said he is abolsute creator, fashioner, empowerer and master of his own universe, a complete 'New Gods'' universe and a powerful universe at that. Tribaunal isn't. Galactus isn't. They are subjective, Source is not.

Check out Legacy's scans for a 'regular' conventional Seid against the Source. That is impressive.

Plus Force, not to put you down or anything, but advocating somone's 'rudeness' almost puts one in the same league. Too bad, standards have come so far down. Again, I am not playing Holier than thou, cos' I am not. What I don;t understand is what happened to good ol' decency?

This is completely retarded. No New gods have died, there is no source wall, this is just Seid and just Surfer. There is no possible way that Seid can draw on the power of fallen New gods, which is an external power source BY EVERY DEFINITION. It doesn't matter if he has the innate ability to draw on them or not, the bottom line is HE'S. GETTING. POWER. FROM. SOMEWHERE. ELSE. Also, Legacy's scans are from Death of The New Gods, so no, he's not conventional. Again, if Seid is allowed to use the power of fallen New Gods, Surfer is allowed to use The Crunch. At least The Crunch doesn't depend on an even that hasn't even happened yet, its always there.

The Living Tribunal could create stuff too, he could literally create whole universes, easily. I'm not sure what about "LT is multiversal, and Source is Universal" you don't get, but I don't think I can break it down any simpler. LT is just plain higher up on the cosmic hierarchy. That's literally all there is too it. It doesn't matter if the Source created this shit, or the LT did that, the LT just plain has more power. The LT is second in line, I bet the freaking Spectre could take out the Source. It's not subjective at all, its completely objective, its a simple fact.

Also, what do you mean by, "that's how it usually plays out"? Please cite another time where Thanos has beaten the Silver Surfer aside from the famous Cosmic Powers Unlimited #1 fight. In Silver surfer: Rebirth of Thanos, Thanos did get hit once by SS and remain unfazed (keep in mind this was also before Surfer's upgrade), but in that same miniseries Surfer engaged him and Thanos faked his death and fled. Not that impressive if you ask me. If he could easily beat Surfer, why not stay and fight? And that scan you posted was before his augmentations at the hand of Galactus. Also, Surfer, in that battle, didn't have a complete mastery over the power cosmic, enabling Thanos to drain his energy. That's the only way Thanos could beat a person who far outclasses him in literally every measurement of power. Why did Surfer continue to blast Thanos with cosmic energy after learning he can absorb it instead of using his multitude of other powers like matter manipulation or blinding speed? PIS.

Surfer matched Thanos' power output while SEVERELY weakened during Annihilation. At full power, he would utterly DESTROY Thanos. Keep in mind, Surfer did this while literally near death, as in, he was about to die, and he matched Thanos' power output.

Also, back to my original point, why can't surfer just generate Radon? Noone has challenged this fact. What's stopping him?

P.S- @MarvelMan, while that is true, Surfer can engage him in that manner at will, so the feat's still pretty important.

#63 force_echo

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 09:09 PM

[EDIT]

#64 MarvelFan15

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 10:09 PM

I'm MarvelFan. Marvel Man is an entirely different person.

#65 xLEGACYx

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Posted 16 May 2012 - 11:39 PM

Also, back to my original point, why can't surfer just generate Radon? Noone has challenged this fact. What's stopping him?

Nothing is stopping him from creating radon BUT what is stopping Seid from simply ripping the power cosmic from Surfer and leaving plain Norrin Radd in a pocket dimension?

Whats stopping Seid and Thanos from absorbing the Power Cosmic from Surfer?

On a side note it take Surfer some concentration to focus and find energy signatures that would reveal Seid's only weakness. Even then Seid is not finished. In Final Crisis when Batman shot him with the radon bullet it only weakend him. It took both Flash tricking the Black Racer into running into Seid to kill him.

The utter stupidity of Surfer actually being able to defeat Seid or Thanos in a straight up fight is dumb. In all ways Seid outclasses Surfer.

Seid literally has every power Surfer has plus more and to a greater scale. So it amazes me that you say Surfer can win here. With the combined cleverness of Thanos and Seid makes Surfer's chances of winning very slim. Not to mention there combined power.

As for Dr. Manhattan, he is powerful but he has no experience with matters of this proportion from his world. He would simply be amazed at his new findings.

#66 baneblade

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:44 AM

Thanks for being direct right there Nova. Although my heart reflect's Nova's message in it, I will still say: lets be reasonable, and try to have some fun. Leave the 'tudes n' complicated undertones at home before you begin posting on ferret. There are enough grievances out there to deal with, lets not create new ones here. Maintain the respect.

#67 baneblade

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:02 AM

This is completely retarded. No New gods have died, there is no source wall, this is just Seid and just Surfer. There is no possible way that Seid can draw on the power of fallen New gods, which is an external power source BY EVERY DEFINITION. It doesn't matter if he has the innate ability to draw on them or not, the bottom line is HE'S. GETTING. POWER. FROM. SOMEWHERE. ELSE. Also, Legacy's scans are from Death of The New Gods, so no, he's not conventional. Again, if Seid is allowed to use the power of fallen New Gods, Surfer is allowed to use The Crunch. At least The Crunch doesn't depend on an even that hasn't even happened yet, its always there.

The Living Tribunal could create stuff too, he could literally create whole universes, easily. I'm not sure what about "LT is multiversal, and Source is Universal" you don't get, but I don't think I can break it down any simpler. LT is just plain higher up on the cosmic hierarchy. That's literally all there is too it. It doesn't matter if the Source created this shit, or the LT did that, the LT just plain has more power. The LT is second in line, I bet the freaking Spectre could take out the Source. It's not subjective at all, its completely objective, its a simple fact.

Also, what do you mean by, "that's how it usually plays out"? Please cite another time where Thanos has beaten the Silver Surfer aside from the famous Cosmic Powers Unlimited #1 fight. In Silver surfer: Rebirth of Thanos, Thanos did get hit once by SS and remain unfazed (keep in mind this was also before Surfer's upgrade), but in that same miniseries Surfer engaged him and Thanos faked his death and fled. Not that impressive if you ask me. If he could easily beat Surfer, why not stay and fight? And that scan you posted was before his augmentations at the hand of Galactus. Also, Surfer, in that battle, didn't have a complete mastery over the power cosmic, enabling Thanos to drain his energy. That's the only way Thanos could beat a person who far outclasses him in literally every measurement of power. Why did Surfer continue to blast Thanos with cosmic energy after learning he can absorb it instead of using his multitude of other powers like matter manipulation or blinding speed? PIS.

Surfer matched Thanos' power output while SEVERELY weakened during Annihilation. At full power, he would utterly DESTROY Thanos. Keep in mind, Surfer did this while literally near death, as in, he was about to die, and he matched Thanos' power output.

Also, back to my original point, why can't surfer just generate Radon? Noone has challenged this fact. What's stopping him?

P.S- @MarvelMan, while that is true, Surfer can engage him in that manner at will, so the feat's still pretty important.


Legacy has addressed it well. I will add my two cents there for some 'inbetween the lines' info.

Even without the 'soul juice' Seid still trumps Surfer's power.

LT: If you can substantiate his creation of 'universes' with a feat, again, sans complications, I will take it. I will tell you this: LT, on file has been instead known to or more appropriately annointed to 'look over things' and pass his word on ongoings. He only acts, as annointed, in times of 'imbalances' on a cosmic scale. His presence is subjective, and it is so to the creation around him, in which he has been given jurisdiction. A rather 'limited' fact that is outshined by an entity that can literally, and has literally done way more. You seem to discard the Source's absolute jurisdiction without reasonable justification. You could go all out and say I am doing the same to Tribunal, but I am not. I am giving you there stated, published range in comicdom.

By the by, you still didn;t give the reference of the being more powerful than Big G that Surfer somehow rather miraculosuly trumped.

As for the Radon creation, Legacy has put it to a tee: Concentration, time, all the focus he needs in this damned universe being attacked by the twosome. A luxury he won't really have. You yourself snipped this in the bud by saying that 'Surfer was not at full confidence when Thanos tanked his full out hit'. Two things get solved here, and it is only what I have said, that you have substantiated differently. Surfer has a wavering, human mindset. I said that. He is subjective to consequences, degrees, variations, where he was trumped by much lesser beings right off the bat. In this instant, why give him the absolute benefit of doubt against an opponent who has trumped him before, and dented his 'confidence' as you say?

PIS, that is your concern about Thanos humiliating Surfer? It goes bothways: Thanos totally unfazed one frame, and then somewhat shaken in another, is major PIS to me. The only saving grace is if you say, oh, Thanos might have been 'somewhat confused there, or his confidence dented somewhat during that second battle'. If it was, then Surfer again, is subject to the same pitfalls. Always was.

The point about a once in a lifetime display of force is further solidified by the mindset argument, when you say Surfer even in a fallen state matched Thanos. How many times have we seen this: Spiderman outwitting Juggernaut inspite of hanging bya thread, or falling Firelord, Superman beating Seid, Spiderman lifting 'tons' of metal with a twisted leg even, to escape to save Aunt may, Batman withstanding and fighting at least 4 -5 credible fighters in one go in under two panels. These all spell one thing: act of desperation. Again, mindset, out of the ordinary instances, that normally wouldn't be seen. If you pull those, and then gauge the character at his ebb, then I imagine only what Thanos' and Seid's combined 'ebb' would be? It would be terrible.

Awaiting your reply.

#68 Guest_Redemption X_*

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:11 AM

Glad you're finally starting to realize it yourself.


That doesn't make you any less of a bullying, rude, inconsiderate jackass. Try treating people in real life the same way you treat people here, and see how far you go. Do you even have friends in real life, or have you alienated them all with your insults?

You can't go around like insulting everyone, you know.

#69 Guest_Redemption X_*

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:13 AM

Thanks for being direct right there Nova. Although my heart reflect's Nova's message in it, I will still say: lets be reasonable, and try to have some fun. Leave the 'tudes n' complicated undertones at home before you begin posting on ferret. There are enough grievances out there to deal with, lets not create new ones here. Maintain the respect.


This should go for sirmethos as well as me. My idea of "fun" is NOT being called an idiot repeatedly.

#70 xLEGACYx

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:14 AM

That doesn't make you any less of a bullying, rude, inconsiderate jackass. Try treating people in real life the same way you treat people here, and see how far you go. Do you even have friends in real life, or have you alienated them all with your insults?

You can't go around like insulting everyone, you know.

thats exactly what you did when you commented on baneblade and echo. Thats like the pot calling the kettle black.

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:21 AM

But I only did it once, after this whole argument overwhelmed me.

sirmethos does it ALL THE TIME, with zero justification.

He didn't review my last batch of matches, he just gave me Fs on all of them without a proper review, just to spite me.

He hates me, and so far he hasn't told me WHY, only repeating "you are an idiot" like a broken record.

And still, the rules apply for everyone. If I'm not allowed to insult baneblade, then sirmethos is not allowed to insult me.

#72 xLEGACYx

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:25 AM

But I only did it once, after this whole argument overwhelmed me.

sirmethos does it ALL THE TIME, with zero justification.

He didn't review my last batch of matches, he just gave me Fs on all of them without a proper review, just to spite me.

He hates me, and so far he hasn't told me WHY, only repeating "you are an idiot" like a broken record.

And still, the rules apply for everyone. If I'm not allowed to insult baneblade, then sirmethos is not allowed to insult me.

then dont start it to begin with. Each person is subjagated to the same standards but dont insult people and then not expect retalliation from those people or people who already know your rep.

#73 force_echo

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:32 AM

Nothing is stopping him from creating radon BUT what is stopping Seid from simply ripping the power cosmic from Surfer and leaving plain Norrin Radd in a pocket dimension?

Whats stopping Seid and Thanos from absorbing the Power Cosmic from Surfer?

On a side note it take Surfer some concentration to focus and find energy signatures that would reveal Seid's only weakness. Even then Seid is not finished. In Final Crisis when Batman shot him with the radon bullet it only weakend him. It took both Flash tricking the Black Racer into running into Seid to kill him.

The utter stupidity of Surfer actually being able to defeat Seid or Thanos in a straight up fight is dumb. In all ways Seid outclasses Surfer.

Seid literally has every power Surfer has plus more and to a greater scale. So it amazes me that you say Surfer can win here. With the combined cleverness of Thanos and Seid makes Surfer's chances of winning very slim. Not to mention there combined power.

As for Dr. Manhattan, he is powerful but he has no experience with matters of this proportion from his world. He would simply be amazed at his new findings.

Again, with his upgrade by Galactus, he has full control of the Power Cosmic, as in, noone can steal it from his body because he alone has control of where it goes and what it does.

Surfer doesn't require immense concentration to use cosmic awareness to discern weaknesses. When he fought Gladiator he was easily able to discern a weakness, and Darkseid has more of a "set" weakness than Gladiator does. Darkseid was already dying when he got shot with the radon bullet, The Flashes maneuvering the Black Racer was just nailing in the coffin. Besides, if one bullet can fatally wound him, he's going to be screwed against a guy who can make an unlimited amount.

You keep telling me that Seid far outclasses Surfer in power. Prove it. The utter stupidity of you not realizing the whole concept behind debating is mind blowing.

#74 force_echo

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 09:48 AM

Legacy has addressed it well. I will add my two cents there for some 'inbetween the lines' info.

Even without the 'soul juice' Seid still trumps Surfer's power.

LT: If you can substantiate his creation of 'universes' with a feat, again, sans complications, I will take it. I will tell you this: LT, on file has been instead known to or more appropriately annointed to 'look over things' and pass his word on ongoings. He only acts, as annointed, in times of 'imbalances' on a cosmic scale. His presence is subjective, and it is so to the creation around him, in which he has been given jurisdiction. A rather 'limited' fact that is outshined by an entity that can literally, and has literally done way more. You seem to discard the Source's absolute jurisdiction without reasonable justification. You could go all out and say I am doing the same to Tribunal, but I am not. I am giving you there stated, published range in comicdom.

By the by, you still didn;t give the reference of the being more powerful than Big G that Surfer somehow rather miraculosuly trumped.

As for the Radon creation, Legacy has put it to a tee: Concentration, time, all the focus he needs in this damned universe being attacked by the twosome. A luxury he won't really have. You yourself snipped this in the bud by saying that 'Surfer was not at full confidence when Thanos tanked his full out hit'. Two things get solved here, and it is only what I have said, that you have substantiated differently. Surfer has a wavering, human mindset. I said that. He is subjective to consequences, degrees, variations, where he was trumped by much lesser beings right off the bat. In this instant, why give him the absolute benefit of doubt against an opponent who has trumped him before, and dented his 'confidence' as you say?

PIS, that is your concern about Thanos humiliating Surfer? It goes bothways: Thanos totally unfazed one frame, and then somewhat shaken in another, is major PIS to me. The only saving grace is if you say, oh, Thanos might have been 'somewhat confused there, or his confidence dented somewhat during that second battle'. If it was, then Surfer again, is subject to the same pitfalls. Always was.

The point about a once in a lifetime display of force is further solidified by the mindset argument, when you say Surfer even in a fallen state matched Thanos. How many times have we seen this: Spiderman outwitting Juggernaut inspite of hanging bya thread, or falling Firelord, Superman beating Seid, Spiderman lifting 'tons' of metal with a twisted leg even, to escape to save Aunt may, Batman withstanding and fighting at least 4 -5 credible fighters in one go in under two panels. These all spell one thing: act of desperation. Again, mindset, out of the ordinary instances, that normally wouldn't be seen. If you pull those, and then gauge the character at his ebb, then I imagine only what Thanos' and Seid's combined 'ebb' would be? It would be terrible.

Awaiting your reply.

First of all, if you recall my first post, I said if Surfer was blood-lusted, he could take out Seid and Thanos, he has the power to. So that whole thing about Surfer's wavering mindset or whatever doesn't even tie in with my argument.

Again, prove that Seid outclasses Surfer in power. If we go on a blow for blow capability basis- surfer outclasses both in speed, strength, energy projection, durability, etc. etc.

See my reply to Legacy about the concentration. Besides, even if he needs focus, he far outclasses both in raw speed, just avoid them for a while, scope it out, and go back in and destroy.

Him beating Aegis and Tenebrous happened at the end of Annihilation Wave, but as I mentioned he had to use The crunch to beat them. However, under his own power, he still held and stood up to them. A pretty insane feat since they're stronger than a Universal Entity, putting them above Eternity itself.

I don't think any of those feats have been done in a near death state. Besides, whatever desperation Surfer has, is countered by the fact that physically, he was still near death. If you get shot in the arm, and you have a sudden surge in adrenaline because of desperation, well, you're still not going to be able to use that arm, because physically, it is incapacitated.

The LT doesn't have a set feat because in Marvel cosmic entities don't interfere in anything. The OAA has almost never been directly involved in anything. Hell, its hardly ever mentioned. Meanwhile The Presence gets involved in all kinds of stuff, even being in the central role of some storylines. That doesn't mean that The Presence is stronger than the OAA, they're equal on the hierarchy. Similarly, the LT outclasses The Source on the Hierarchy. In DC, the Source is just above the Old Gods, this because the Old Gods were able to fracture the Source. This puts The Source far below the likes of the LT, who is second on the cosmic Hierarchy.

#75 sirmethos

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 10:31 AM

Aegis and Tenebrous are not "stronger than a universal entity", and definitely not above Eternity. Even together they are weaker than Galactus at full power. It was Galactus that originally subdued them, and killed Diableri(another Primordial God, that was more powerful than Aegis and Tenebrous).

And while Silver Surfer did defeat them by channeling the power of The Crunch, they injured him enough that he was "barely alive", with just 3 blasts of energy.

It's still an impressive feat, but you're making it sound a lot more impressive than it actually is.

#76 baneblade

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 11:16 AM

First of all, if you recall my first post, I said if Surfer was blood-lusted, he could take out Seid and Thanos, he has the power to. So that whole thing about Surfer's wavering mindset or whatever doesn't even tie in with my argument.

Again, prove that Seid outclasses Surfer in power. If we go on a blow for blow capability basis- surfer outclasses both in speed, strength, energy projection, durability, etc. etc.

See my reply to Legacy about the concentration. Besides, even if he needs focus, he far outclasses both in raw speed, just avoid them for a while, scope it out, and go back in and destroy.

Him beating Aegis and Tenebrous happened at the end of Annihilation Wave, but as I mentioned he had to use The crunch to beat them. However, under his own power, he still held and stood up to them. A pretty insane feat since they're stronger than a Universal Entity, putting them above Eternity itself.

I don't think any of those feats have been done in a near death state. Besides, whatever desperation Surfer has, is countered by the fact that physically, he was still near death. If you get shot in the arm, and you have a sudden surge in adrenaline because of desperation, well, you're still not going to be able to use that arm, because physically, it is incapacitated.

The LT doesn't have a set feat because in Marvel cosmic entities don't interfere in anything. The OAA has almost never been directly involved in anything. Hell, its hardly ever mentioned. Meanwhile The Presence gets involved in all kinds of stuff, even being in the central role of some storylines. That doesn't mean that The Presence is stronger than the OAA, they're equal on the hierarchy. Similarly, the LT outclasses The Source on the Hierarchy. In DC, the Source is just above the Old Gods, this because the Old Gods were able to fracture the Source. This puts The Source far below the likes of the LT, who is second on the cosmic Hierarchy.


- Simple answer to the outclassing thing:
1) Greater feats - Inherently putting the universe at stake, changing it forever; singlehandedly standing upto his own maker (Of course, you are debating both, I am only stating them, again), but the next one is the one that I have been arguing on, and you really don't have a footing on:
2) Much much shorter list of embarassments and fallibilities (Most of these happened while Surfer was well, pure Surfer)
Also, speeding off, improvising, and speeding back with big guns intact? Not beside Seid and Thanos' decimating the landscape. Plus, you really think that Thanos won't see or expect that? (even if Seid doesn't right away) These are two devious beings who don't go into battles half cocked.


- As for LT and Source comparisons again, the Voice also doesnot interject into the affairs of the regular universe. Having no 'set feat' doesnot an excuse make. Can you perhaps show an instant or scribe comment that states that LT can spawn life, design, re-design, annihilate it? I know you can't, because there isn't an instant like that. Once again, Source creates, empowers, decides, judges, re-fashions, raises etc. He is not subject to jursidictions in his universe, LT is. Plus, the Source, per Starlin, in present state is not what 'he or it was'. It is reinvented, improvised and therefore the drastic steps to erase the 'New Gods' and establish another domain. Some set comments of the past publications even saw it as more of a creator, that did same, then observed only. Newer published content and relative comments bordered around the Source's shift in plan, and gradual interjection in events, along with a more conscious, amped up method. This is not the old world Source. This is a Source that was either metamorphosized for the New Gods. I know again, you probably won't see it that way, but simply looking at the events of then and now, begins putting the pieces together.

Again, Force, I am only looking at history, feats, aversion of pitfalls, and of course, primarily, Thanos' and Surfer's tainted, PIS ridden history. These are things you could conjecture on, but not deny or see it your way.

- Again, you name two entities, that I just don't see as stronger than a 100% Galactus. I think bro Sirmethos explained it quite well. I will add to it: The two who lost, and are 'mis-interpretted in terms of power' are not as smart either, not by miles, as are Seid and Thanos, especially together. Again, you underestimate brains, and either refuse, or missed covering all angles.

- Being shot in the arm is a completely different story. That is impairment to muscle, tendons. Getting blasted on an impervious hide is quite another. I am sure, Surfer had use of all his 'schematics' in all of his outings.

#77 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 01:46 PM

He hates me, and so far he hasn't told me WHY, only repeating "you are an idiot" like a broken record.



...

Are you really that stupid? It should be clear that the reason he hates you(If he even does, I don't know) is because you are an idiot. Is that not clear?

I particularly don't care one way or the other about you.

#78 Guest_Redemption X_*

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:25 PM

"You are an idiot" is not contructive criticism.

If you are calling me an idiot, you need a reason why.

#79 kainboa

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 02:35 PM

"You are an idiot" is not contructive criticism.

If you are calling me an idiot, you need a reason why.


In my case, the reason why I keep calling you an idiot, is because you've fairly consistently acted like an idiot, using faulty logic and stupid reasons for your arguments.

While I can't know for sure that this is also the case for Methos, I'm relatively certain that it is so, and in that case, giving a reason isn't really needed, since you have already been given the reason several times before, and yet you still continue doing the exact same thing.

To finish off, a slightly modified quote from Forest Gump. "Idiot is, as idiot does."

#80 Darxeth

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Posted 17 May 2012 - 07:29 PM

Ah, after a few days of being away from the internet, I enjoy being back.




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