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Match 11548 Darkseid and Thanos vs. The Silver Surfer and Doctor Manhattan


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#21 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 06:34 PM

Dr. Has the ability to see all possible futures (only for himself right?) so wouldn't he know how Darkseid and Thanos would win and avoid it? I mean he would know that DS has a beam that could kill him, watch and "see" what it does and then know what to do to avoid it or even cancel it

Mind you DS's beams aren't all powerful, and seeing how Dr is more DC than Marvel and how he is made to be "God" the OBeams might not work

Thanos rules everything with the IG regardless!

#22 .Big Game James.

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Posted 09 May 2012 - 09:56 PM

this one goes down to omega effect vs. sub-atomic manipulation.

didn't batman dodge omega beams then proceed to shoot darkseid?

i hate going against seid and thanos, but manhattan and surfer take this one.

#23 xLEGACYx

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 07:37 AM

this one goes down to omega effect vs. sub-atomic manipulation.

didn't batman dodge omega beams then proceed to shoot darkseid?

i hate going against seid and thanos, but manhattan and surfer take this one.

No he didnt dodge them. Batman allowed just pulled off his shot and sacrificed himself to do so.

Also the Omega Beams can travel any direction, through any material, through any dimension, and any time. So they are all powerful except against kryptonians because of an unexplained reason.

#24 baneblade

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 08:36 AM

For the comments above from brothers Force and Anu.

1) Darkseid not beating Superman in a finality agenda has a two pronged background: First, the red line no villain can cross and which I am not even comprehending; Second, it is an on and off thing that if you have visited any sit downs with chief scribes who pen these stories, you will know that their 'reasons' are half and half. Half will be the convenienve and direction of the story and how it developed, and the other would be dark schemes of Seid who intentionally did not kill Superman as he saw in him a future unwitting pawn who would serve a higher purpose. Ex: In the Our World at War storyline, Darkseid had Superman trounced, and what followed next would just come naturally, what with an 'inert' Superman and fulyl powered Darkseid, but it didn't. When one of the questions was posed as to why not just finish him off? The answer was simple: Seid has a future plan for him, some kind of use.

2) Surfer simply skimming the 'impromptu catalog' of Seid'd weakness. Hmmmm. Logically, I would simply say that if it never worked elsewhere, or with a weaker or key opponent, then it definitely will not work with Seid. Folks have started to believe it as well I see the 'cracks' showing in that Surfer as nigh powerful argument. Guy's a pacifist. So, we have 2 routes there: Either we play dumb, and simply ignore the 'character' half, and just subtract the powers from the character. The other option is to play smart, and take his history, and tendencies, namely, his character in tow.

Now, about this thing about powers. See brothers, it works both ways. Sorry, but from team 2, I only gave the marginal advantage to Manhattan, purely if his powers worked on paper, not in reality or comic history terms. Surfer I do not. He is a non-factor here.

I don't even want to argue the point here. Thanos says: Oh, Seidie, don;t worry about this one. Him I have trounced multiple times. (Even if he did it once, it would count). Let me get rid of this one for us. I say it will happen. It has been established, Surfer just could not at his best, handle Thanos. What makes you think he will do it out of the blue right here? Logically, categorically, he will not beat Thanos.

Then, we have the question of power sets, as mentioned above. If Surfer has access to this power and that, do you think Seid will sit on his rocky behind and let him use it? If you speak purely on paper, then sure, here goes: Seid's one power is as originally stated in power stats by DC, able to trump all power sets here. His Omega beams are 'unavoidable'. (On paper now). Unavoidable, will always follow, tag or hit the 'intended' target. What they do is a variety of cool stuff. I choose the one with the singular outing in comic history, but it is there: Omega Sanction. Lets say Surfer fires his salvo and what not. Seid will power his. When he does, Surfer can't hide, can't avert. It follows, and hits, that is the stated power set. No ifs and buts about it. When it hits, Surfer will land his shiny behind in split relaities, 'one designated to be worse than the other'. In this, Johns put it more elaborately: If Seid wishes the traget dead: he will perish in those realities as he will be subject to all sequences designed to kill him. If Sied wants the target to merely suffer, but make it out (eventually) depending on their strong will, then be it so. It is upto Seid. This is his singular power that can take care of even multiple opponent. He has only used it once, and DC intended it that way, as they would run out of serious excuses of how folks would counter than one power.

So, kindly brothers, pay a little heed to history. History says, that naturally, Seid will want to keep Surfer around as his 'herald'. or Thanos will, and Manhattan will scamper for the high ground, not because he doesn't have that singular power to change probability, but only because his ingrained 'make of the Superior' can't be overhsadowed by him. He is effective, but part maker, and part spectator, in the Grand Make.

Thanos and Seid still win.

#25 Guest_anu_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 09:44 AM

Ok that was a lot of running around the mount simply to say that you still don't want to give the power cosmic any credit. Since you would never see my point believe as you will. Yet guys are giving DS and Thanos way too much here. There are several things that Thanos can't do that Surfer can and on a grander scale yet again it's only going to go back and forth and back and forth and off such a crappy setup it's not really worth the energy to debate with you, so agree to disgaree and move on. I just think that DS and Thanos are overused in battles on this forum and really hyped as being way stronger than they actually are.

#26 .Big Game James.

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:00 AM

i have been using seid and thanos alot for battles because i'm sick of them always winning. i'm trying to get them beat!!! even though there my favorite characters. lol

#27 baneblade

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 11:15 AM

Ok that was a lot of running around the mount simply to say that you still don't want to give the power cosmic any credit. Since you would never see my point believe as you will. Yet guys are giving DS and Thanos way too much here. There are several things that Thanos can't do that Surfer can and on a grander scale yet again it's only going to go back and forth and back and forth and off such a crappy setup it's not really worth the energy to debate with you, so agree to disgaree and move on. I just think that DS and Thanos are overused in battles on this forum and really hyped as being way stronger than they actually are.


Don' know if you will debate on this any more bro, but there really isn't a debate.

I never 'discarded' the power cosmic, but do discard upto a degree the individual who weilds it. Surfer is basically an overcooked item, with the flavour, strictly speaking power wise. My simple reasoning was this: if Thanos has trounced him, and remained unaffected by his attacks, what makes anyone think within the lines of 'comic reasoning' that this outcome will be any different. Consider that, and the fact that Surfer's list of losses grows with 'lesser' opponents with a little to show for the power he weilds, and you will see a team up of Seid and Thanos almost impossible to comrehend for poor Surfer, leave alone trumping them.

That my bro is not my opinion. These are comic facts put in perspective.

#28 Guest_anu_*

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 12:24 PM

And you also disregard the point made about DManhattan here as well. Yet just because its Thanos and DS oh, nobody can beat them regardless. You have to think beyond just power vs power here would be that factor. Yet like I said your facts are only based on your opinion on how YOU choose to look at them, this doesn't mean they are right, they just mean they are supportive of your opinion for how YOU would see this battle going. So again, agree to disagree, you aren't right, you wont' be right and you won't convince me that you are. If you are saying there is NO WAY IN HELL they could win you are wrong..simple as that.

And yes this is my final comment on this, its not worth it, its not worth the energy...agree to disagree and I am fine with that. You want the last word ? Heh...take it dude, dont matter to me. If you just HAVE to make another comment to try to prove you are right to soothe your ego then go ahead. Are you wrong? Yes.

I have nothing more to say on the matter.

#29 baneblade

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 01:38 PM

And you also disregard the point made about DManhattan here as well. Yet just because its Thanos and DS oh, nobody can beat them regardless. You have to think beyond just power vs power here would be that factor. Yet like I said your facts are only based on your opinion on how YOU choose to look at them, this doesn't mean they are right, they just mean they are supportive of your opinion for how YOU would see this battle going. So again, agree to disagree, you aren't right, you wont' be right and you won't convince me that you are. If you are saying there is NO WAY IN HELL they could win you are wrong..simple as that.

And yes this is my final comment on this, its not worth it, its not worth the energy...agree to disagree and I am fine with that. You want the last word ? Heh...take it dude, dont matter to me. If you just HAVE to make another comment to try to prove you are right to soothe your ego then go ahead. Are you wrong? Yes.

I have nothing more to say on the matter.


Boy bro, you really seem to mind what I typed there. Key, I would like to lay down a few points here, even if you won;t be back on this:
1) There is no ego here. Not for such diminutive things
2) I don't want any last word
3) I am not seeing this my way. Thanos beat Surfer's hide? Am I seeing that my way? That's the way Marvel painted it. You have to accept it, esepcailly since there was no 'extraneous' explanation given for the loss. He lost, was pawned in terms of power, no less. Anything else that opines otherwise is only adverse to reason, unless there is a background fact that I don't know, or a scribe account of the ongoings. Not a lame account, that conflicts with another scribe's, but a proper, upto speed account of why Surfer lost there.
4) I am not seeing the battle going that way without just any reason bro. Quite respectfully, I mentioned my reasons for it, and my reasons make pure sense. I am not one to think outside the capsule, when there is no need to.

I am only taking into account history, development, and then weighing the possibilities. Your approach is more of what you are accusing me of bro: personal opinion only, stopping a short way of addressing a few facts that I am repeatedly laying out here: like: Surfer will likely lose to someone who he lost to before, and lost to lesser even. As for Manhattan, you chose either not to look at all to what I said, or I didn't put it through clearly: I said Manhattan could win this, as he has the power to change outcomes, events and 'immediate' reality with but a thought. Agree? I think everyone will, on that point any way. However, he was unable to stop events from culminating in his one tale, inspite of seeing the horror in his 'future' sight'. One reason that scribe Moore mentioned, and which was even obvious by our limited understanding was, Manhattan's reluctance to go all out, as he was overwhelmed by the Grand Design toward the end of the story. Now, though he embarked on a journey of discovery, he was also humbled in a sense that only reinforced the idea of him not playing 'God'. Hence, if under such dire circumstances, he couldn't avert everything, I have no reason to think he will do so here as well. Here, I laid out a hook, that if and only if Seid and Thanos are on a trajectory with fate, in a natural turn of events, that Manhattan can not comprehend, then he will simply walk away from the battle or effect minimum influence in it. Although I said 'if', that if is likely to happen as Seid and Thanos are cosmic near-entities who are looked upon as part of the greater upheavels in the celestial design. Hence, yes, that part is my opinion, but the facts attached with it are not.

Sorry for the upset pal, but I guess we disagree after all, but I am not entirely agreeable on that even.

#30 Callisto

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Posted 10 May 2012 - 10:15 PM

Match Final Results
USER RATINGS
B
C Decent story, but is mostly a block of text and needs more content.
C
B
SCORE
Darkseid and Thanos: 19
The Silver Surfer and Doctor Manhattan: 25
FPA: 2.5


#31 force_echo

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Posted 11 May 2012 - 08:28 PM

For the comments above from brothers Force and Anu.

1) Darkseid not beating Superman in a finality agenda has a two pronged background: First, the red line no villain can cross and which I am not even comprehending; Second, it is an on and off thing that if you have visited any sit downs with chief scribes who pen these stories, you will know that their 'reasons' are half and half. Half will be the convenienve and direction of the story and how it developed, and the other would be dark schemes of Seid who intentionally did not kill Superman as he saw in him a future unwitting pawn who would serve a higher purpose. Ex: In the Our World at War storyline, Darkseid had Superman trounced, and what followed next would just come naturally, what with an 'inert' Superman and fulyl powered Darkseid, but it didn't. When one of the questions was posed as to why not just finish him off? The answer was simple: Seid has a future plan for him, some kind of use.

2) Surfer simply skimming the 'impromptu catalog' of Seid'd weakness. Hmmmm. Logically, I would simply say that if it never worked elsewhere, or with a weaker or key opponent, then it definitely will not work with Seid. Folks have started to believe it as well I see the 'cracks' showing in that Surfer as nigh powerful argument. Guy's a pacifist. So, we have 2 routes there: Either we play dumb, and simply ignore the 'character' half, and just subtract the powers from the character. The other option is to play smart, and take his history, and tendencies, namely, his character in tow.

Now, about this thing about powers. See brothers, it works both ways. Sorry, but from team 2, I only gave the marginal advantage to Manhattan, purely if his powers worked on paper, not in reality or comic history terms. Surfer I do not. He is a non-factor here.

I don't even want to argue the point here. Thanos says: Oh, Seidie, don;t worry about this one. Him I have trounced multiple times. (Even if he did it once, it would count). Let me get rid of this one for us. I say it will happen. It has been established, Surfer just could not at his best, handle Thanos. What makes you think he will do it out of the blue right here? Logically, categorically, he will not beat Thanos.

Then, we have the question of power sets, as mentioned above. If Surfer has access to this power and that, do you think Seid will sit on his rocky behind and let him use it? If you speak purely on paper, then sure, here goes: Seid's one power is as originally stated in power stats by DC, able to trump all power sets here. His Omega beams are 'unavoidable'. (On paper now). Unavoidable, will always follow, tag or hit the 'intended' target. What they do is a variety of cool stuff. I choose the one with the singular outing in comic history, but it is there: Omega Sanction. Lets say Surfer fires his salvo and what not. Seid will power his. When he does, Surfer can't hide, can't avert. It follows, and hits, that is the stated power set. No ifs and buts about it. When it hits, Surfer will land his shiny behind in split relaities, 'one designated to be worse than the other'. In this, Johns put it more elaborately: If Seid wishes the traget dead: he will perish in those realities as he will be subject to all sequences designed to kill him. If Sied wants the target to merely suffer, but make it out (eventually) depending on their strong will, then be it so. It is upto Seid. This is his singular power that can take care of even multiple opponent. He has only used it once, and DC intended it that way, as they would run out of serious excuses of how folks would counter than one power.

So, kindly brothers, pay a little heed to history. History says, that naturally, Seid will want to keep Surfer around as his 'herald'. or Thanos will, and Manhattan will scamper for the high ground, not because he doesn't have that singular power to change probability, but only because his ingrained 'make of the Superior' can't be overhsadowed by him. He is effective, but part maker, and part spectator, in the Grand Make.

Thanos and Seid still win.

1. If Darkseid doesn't kill Superman because he finds a use for him or whatever, he probably won't kill Surfer for the same reason.
2. First of all, I said Surfer would kill Seid and Thanos only if he was serious. When he was serious, he effortlessly demolished Thanos, had Thanos literally begging for his life in front of him.
3. The Omega Beams can definitely be dodged, Superman has done it on multiple ocassions, as you said, we have to pay attention to history. As you said, Darkseid has only used the Omega Sanction once, why would he use it against Surfer. We have to pay attention to history after all. His other powers won't do jack shit to Surfer, as Surfer is completely beyond Seid power-wise, and can channel the power of The Crunch to further empower himself.
4. Yes, he has used Cosmic awareness to gain further information on enemies, multiple times. As in, almost every other battle he's in. He uses this power CONSTANTLY.

#32 kainboa

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 05:05 AM

3. The Omega Beams can definitely be dodged, Superman has done it on multiple ocassions, as you said, we have to pay attention to history. As you said, Darkseid has only used the Omega Sanction once, why would he use it against Surfer. We have to pay attention to history after all. His other powers won't do jack shit to Surfer, as Surfer is completely beyond Seid power-wise, and can channel the power of The Crunch to further empower himself.


There's a few issues with Silver Surfer using the Crunch.
First off, it is located at a specific place in the Marvel universe which was a fairly long distance away from everything else, and considering that the fight is taking place on earth, Surfer going to get the power of the Crunch, would more than likely count as a battlefield removal, since he would be out of the combat for a long enough time for Thanos and Darkseid to take care of Dr. Manhattan.

Secondly, the last time he used it he was nearly consumed by it, granted when he did, it was immediately after getting the shit kicked out of him by the primordials, but it was a large strain on him, so much so that Galactus had to heal him afterwards.

Thinking that he'll use a one time power up, that hasn't been used before or after, nor mentioned before or after, seems somewhat stupid.

#33 xLEGACYx

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 09:25 AM

Surfer is extremely powerful no doubt but he is much less than Thanos and Darkseid. When it comes to actual power sets Darkseid has them all beat. Dr. Manhattan is the real threat to Seid and Thanos. Manhattan knows all that can happen in past present and future. It would make him hard to even hit. It would call for a great distraction for the other to attack. Surfer is a head on attacker. When he fights he has all that power but focuses on punches and energy projection. Both Thanos and Darkseid have shown to use more power dets in their fights.

#34 force_echo

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:19 PM

Surfer is extremely powerful no doubt but he is much less than Thanos and Darkseid. When it comes to actual power sets Darkseid has them all beat. Dr. Manhattan is the real threat to Seid and Thanos. Manhattan knows all that can happen in past present and future. It would make him hard to even hit. It would call for a great distraction for the other to attack. Surfer is a head on attacker. When he fights he has all that power but focuses on punches and energy projection. Both Thanos and Darkseid have shown to use more power dets in their fights.

Yeah, Surfer can see into the future also. Also, I don't think you've ever read an actual Surfer comic. Like, ever. Or any of Seid's or Thanos'. Surfer uses his auxiliary powers much more than Seid or Thanos do, in fact, the powers Surfer uses the most are probably matter manipulation and flight, while Thanos and Seid like to physically slap their opponents around. Good luck doing that against a person who can almost infinitely increase his strength.

@Kain: The exact same argument can be used against Seid and the Omega sanction, or half a dozen of his other powers that he only used once. Besides, Surfer can transverse the Universe in a matter of seconds, shouldn't be hard to fly over to the Crunch and zip back.

#35 sirmethos

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Posted 12 May 2012 - 06:32 PM

The power of The Crunch, is an external power-up/power source, it's like giving Thanos any of the power artifacts he has gained(and lost) over time, or giving Darkseid the ALE.
If it's not specified in the OP, then it's not applicable.

#36 xLEGACYx

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Posted 13 May 2012 - 10:23 AM

Baneblade and Kainboa have provided ample examples of why team 1 wins here. You yourself said Surfer could use the crunch so he could beat them. Since the Crunch is an outside power source he doesnt have it in this battle. In turn you claimed through negligence that without the crunch Surfer can not win therefore team 1 is the victor.

On a side note Seid could rip the cosmic force from Surfer taking it for himself while leaving plain old Norrin Radd stuck in a pocket dimension.

Baneblade's one feat of Seid facing off against the Source out ways Surfer's feats. Seid has been proven to be more powerful and immensly more knowledgeable of battle tactics than Surfer in all.

#37 baneblade

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:32 AM

Baneblade and Kainboa have provided ample examples of why team 1 wins here. You yourself said Surfer could use the crunch so he could beat them. Since the Crunch is an outside power source he doesnt have it in this battle. In turn you claimed through negligence that without the crunch Surfer can not win therefore team 1 is the victor.

On a side note Seid could rip the cosmic force from Surfer taking it for himself while leaving plain old Norrin Radd stuck in a pocket dimension.

Baneblade's one feat of Seid facing off against the Source out ways Surfer's feats. Seid has been proven to be more powerful and immensly more knowledgeable of battle tactics than Surfer in all.


Legacy m' bro, couldn't have said it better myself. Cheers all.

#38 force_echo

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:02 PM

Baneblade and Kainboa have provided ample examples of why team 1 wins here. You yourself said Surfer could use the crunch so he could beat them. Since the Crunch is an outside power source he doesnt have it in this battle. In turn you claimed through negligence that without the crunch Surfer can not win therefore team 1 is the victor.

On a side note Seid could rip the cosmic force from Surfer taking it for himself while leaving plain old Norrin Radd stuck in a pocket dimension.

Baneblade's one feat of Seid facing off against the Source out ways Surfer's feats. Seid has been proven to be more powerful and immensly more knowledgeable of battle tactics than Surfer in all.

Actually, I said Surfer outclasses both in power without the Crunch. He can increase any one of his attributes- strength, durability, speed, etc. to almost infinite levels through the power cosmic. Besides the whole fact that he can just make radon, which no one has refuted yet.

On a side note, Surfer completely controls the power cosmic flowing within him, so no, Darkseid can't do that. Nice try though.

Yeah, too bad he didn't beat The Source. Surfer "stood up" to beings stronger than Galactus. He was still defeated in the end until he got The Crunch and beat them. Darkseid couldn't beat The Source even with outside aid.

#39 sirmethos

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 05:28 PM

Darkseid defeated Ares, who at the time had the full power of the God-Wave.
Ares with the God Wave, was considered a Universal, if not Multiversal, threat.

#40 force_echo

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Posted 14 May 2012 - 07:49 PM

Where was this? Scan or issue number? Because if you're referring to the instance in Genesis, which is the only time I've read or heard about Ares and Darkseid meeting, Darkseid didn't even fight Ares, IIRC.




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