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Match 11499 Brainiac and General Zod vs. The Marvel Universe


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#41 bigballerju

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:13 PM

Look at the list again you will see the Fantastic Four, Ironman, Utopia, and the Inhumans who all have big brains. Did you just say out of all of Marvel's list the only ones valuable for combat are Ironman and Karnak?

Edit: I said it was just Brainac in the fight with the Kryptionans. No clones or anything.

#42 xLEGACYx

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:21 PM

Look at the list again you will see the Fantastic Four, Ironman, Utopia, and the Inhumans who all have big brains. Did you just say out of all of Marvel's list the only ones valuable for combat are Ironman and Karnak?

Edit: I said it was just Brainac in the fight with the Kryptionans. No clones or anything.

Well most recent renditions of Brainiac he is part of his ship. So they are one. Either way though with Brainiac in the fight he can observe with other kryptonian scientist and rival anything created by the marvel team. One thing you have to look at is Reed's understanding of the universe is limited compared to Brainiac. Brainiac should be able to counter anything the Marvel eggheads come up with. Not to mention the aid of the kryptonian scientists.

On another note Zod will have made preparations for a battle and no where to strike first, hard and fast to prevent them from using those big brains. With the numbers he could hit them all at once without warning.

#43 bigballerju

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 06:50 PM

No Brainac cannot counter anything Reed can. Reed's the guy who outsmarts and defeats foes like Galactus. By the way Brainac doesn't know anything about the Marvel Universe since he isn't from it.

Just want to play devil's advocate here.

#44 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:26 PM

Nova Prime also has a super AI plugged in with him, that should counter Brainiac. Let's go worldmind.

#45 Delta Force

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:39 PM

Look at the list again you will see the Fantastic Four, Ironman, Utopia, and the Inhumans who all have big brains. Did you just say out of all of Marvel's list the only ones valuable for combat are Ironman and Karnak?


Avengers:

Sentry( Stable Mind with all his powers but reality warping)
World War Hulk
Gladiator 100% confident (He is fighting cause his son is on Earth)
Odinforce Thor
Skaar
Red Hulk
Ironman (Current armor)
War Machine
Luke Cage
Iron Fist
Dr. Strange
Red Shehulk
Sue Storm
Thing
Nova Prime
Hyperion (King Hyperion or whatever is his most powerful version of him)
Power Princess
Quicksilver
Namor
Hercules
Captain Britain
Shehulk
Wonder Man
Ms.Marvel
Valkerie
Johnny Storm
Ghost Rider ( Johnny Blaze not the current one who is a girl)

X-Men:

Utopia (Everyone on Utopia led by Cyclops)

Wolverine's X-Men ( All his X-Men he took with him to from his own school)

Others:

Black Bolt and the Inhumans
Young Avengers
Avengers Academy
Quasar


Is he hiding? :huh:

#46 bigballerju

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:48 PM

LOL you were right. I edited it to add in Reed Richards and Hank Pym.

#47 Delta Force

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 07:56 PM

Hank Pym is with Avengers Academy. Also I said out of combat as in best and the brightest.. Because every one else is need on their respective teams. Like Hank McCoy on X-Men. But since you added Reed. Marvel kicks @$$.

#48 bigballerju

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 08:04 PM

Don't forget the X-Men has a big brain too in Dr.Nemesis or whatever he is called on Utopia. Thats rights I did add in Hank Pym since he is part of Avengers Academy. I was only thinking of the teenage superheroes they train there not the adults.

#49 DSkillz

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Posted 03 May 2012 - 10:32 PM

Good set-up, baller. As good as this was, though, the debating is even better.

Not gonna jump into the debate, but I'm thinking the Krytonians' massive numbers and speed and Brainiac's intel on Marvel Earth may be a bit much for the Marvel heroes to overcome.

#50 Redemption X

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 02:03 AM

Here's the thing:

Ghost Rider uses the Penance Stare on Supergirl.

The power of the Penance Stare makes Supergirl realize that what she's doing is wrong, that she shouldn't be doing this and that she's a heroine.

At which point, Supergirl quickly switches sides.

Wiith Supergirl providing detailed info on Brainiac and the Kryptonians (not to menton her own formidable powers), the Marvel heroes take this.

#51 baneblade

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:24 AM

Many arguments, and I am quite surprised, that those in support of Marvel actually think they can win this one.

Some arguments dispelled:
1) Sentry with a stable mind is not at his most powerful. That is the whole issue. That is why I specifically pointed out, among other things, that the Marvel line up is an impractical one , that will not really work, given character history, tendency and dynamic. The Kryptonian unit has the benefit of formation, synchronity and battle sense. I am not totally dispelling the Marvel lineup battle organization and regrouping, but Legacy X had smartly pointed out a dynamic in the battle, the ratio of one Marvel character to how many number of Kryptonians. The ratio is just too damn overwhelming. Even half that number owuld have been so as well.
2) If Richards and the telepaths could figure out what the Kryptonians are all about, well and good. Only trouble is, save for Sentry, or Thor, (almost), Richards or the inhumans will not have that luxury of time. They have never faced an opponent this 'endowed' before. Plus, Richards to defeat Galactus and any other entity, 'borrowed' from their make to put them down, didn't craft his own 'measure' to drop em'. He did it, but this invasion, with the overwhelming numbers, the power scale being tipped, and the unbelivable ratio is just too much for him to handle. All he has to do, he has to accomplish in the heat of the battle, especially while dealing with Braniac's internal and complete sabotage, and the consistently dropping bodies.casualties, plus all the injured that are going to drop in within a few minutes time frame. He has access to the negative zone: if he just opens it; casualties on both sides, if he seeks to dump a few kryptonians into it, far shot, might work, but then it gives Zod the idea of using that Phantom zone resource he just got hold of during his conquest of DC earth, realistically spekaing, and he has no qualms or complications about releasing another few kryptonians and at the same time throwing, nay, drawing some of the Marvel line up in there. Brains n' muscle ratio: in favour of kryptonians, not by just comparison, but by the nature of the situation, no less, no more.
3) If the Kryptonians don't know much about the Marvel U, then likewise, the disadvantage gos for the Marvel side as well. Plus, the luxury of time is not there, period. Now, in this, remember, learning from experience, and after wasting Luthor, the Kryptonians are the ones invading. Realistically, the Marvel U expects the worst, but that worst is just not as worse as they have ever had.
4) Inhumans, I always considered thos telepaths, and then only formed my opinion. Check out the past history, even with a military unit and elite 'entirely human' squad, with some punches pulled, the telepaths had their hands fuill keeping the physical assaults outside their walls. Sheilding from the attack of the Kryptonians will be impossible. The alternative of attack will of course manifest, but then again, not every 'Inhuman' is equally powerful. As a matter of fact, even among their elite front liners, there were those who will fall easily to a random attack by the Kryptonians, save a select few who will no doubt counter the attack, but with truly mixed results. They had their hands full with one Sentry. This is a group of em' sans the craziness.
5) Some folks have rasied the points that World mind can 'counter' Braniac. When assimilation occurs, and when the 'hardware' and 'software' has been bent to obey, you all have seen in the past how easily Braniac relinquishes control. Worldmind, firstly will have to show in the anals of its accomplishments where and when it 'dissipated' the outer control on a global scale of all sorts of weapons n' control systems. Lets say, there is an instant like this. Then it will also have to show it did this in the midst of a full scale invasion, (ex: one at leats at par with the level of 100,000 Kryptonians) I know there is no single instant. Worldmind might work its charm, but it wont (and I am giving a huge benefit of doubt here), before the scales have drastically tilted.
6) There is too little too late to show in smarts, when you know little of the invading side that is coming in at several thousand miles per hour, and attacking with both weaponry and raw power. Come to think of it, the strong but 'unruly' and shaky Skrulls gave the entire Marvel U fits with both infiltration and direct offensive techniques. 100,000 Kryptonians >>>> in a direct attack than the even readily infiltrating Skrulls. This is a baggage the particular mentioned lineup does not want to carry. Sorry, it is baggage it just can't carry.

I am still surprised, that folks are taking it, that some kryptonians can be just 'flung' here, and there, or dissipated like dust with energy bursts. The fact that this is a force, (100,000 strong, of legible Superman, smarter from invasion and attack experience, even with varying degrees of inidividual experience,) the likes of which this Marvel lineup has not faced before.

Now, again, I have not discounted odds going against the kryptonian unit:
If Bro Baller comes back and says, that in this particular fight, the Kryptonians are each and everyone, driven by evil motives
If he says that the Marvel U raeadily had intel on the Kryptonians for more than an year
If he says the Kryptonians have certain limitations, such as not use 'extras' or specialized equipment, which they did use in all of their battles
If he says that this has to be a pure 'computer style' slugfest that will only and only have the two armies meet at one point, like a pinfall match,
If he says Braniac can't be 'absolute' Braniac, and is only fighting slug fest style, by himself
Then, I would give a wider margin of benefit to the Marvel line up.
Of course, all these instances and assumptions would make it a more 'unrealistic' out of character landscape
Otherwise, if the character histories, handicaps, tendencies, known dexterity and improvisation and of course, powers are brought in; I see Marvel cities in bottles, courtesy Braniac.
It would make for a fascinating story though. That if they do get miniaturised, they start their fight back from the bottle city, lets say of Utopia, and Wakanda, and New York, and gradually reunite to free themselves and win the overall war. I am all for good gus winning and bad guys never getting to cross the eventual red thin line, but this battle is a strict doombringer for the Marvelites.

#52 bigballerju

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 09:16 AM

Just to point out I only said Sentry with a stable mind is powerful enough that he has been said to be on either Silver Surfer or the Dark Phoenix's level which we have seen where he wiped out Asgard by himself. Oh trust me I know Sentry's most powerful form many people forget or get confused on is Void actually which it has been said so in Marvel. Remember also Sentry with a stable mind smacked around a Herald of Galactus like he was nothing just like he destroyed Asgard along with killing Gods easily.

Sentry, Odinforce Thor, Nova Prime, Quasar, Magneto and others could do some serious damage here.

#53 baneblade

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 10:53 AM

Just to point out I only said Sentry with a stable mind is powerful enough that he has been said to be on either Silver Surfer or the Dark Phoenix's level which we have seen where he wiped out Asgard by himself. Oh trust me I know Sentry's most powerful form many people forget or get confused on is Void actually which it has been said so in Marvel. Remember also Sentry with a stable mind smacked around a Herald of Galactus like he was nothing just like he destroyed Asgard along with killing Gods easily.

Sentry, Odinforce Thor, Nova Prime, Quasar, Magneto and others could do some serious damage here.


If Sentry in his stable mind had put down Hulk, or successfully put down Thor, I would believe it. Completely aside from the current discussion, and aside from the match schematics; Sentry is one of many 'to and fro' characters written by Marvel in an attempt to trump the 'billed as overtly powerful' characters from DC, chiefly their counter to Superman. That is why one of his attributes was heavily billed as 'Million Exploding Suns'. Can you imagine the loss of marbles on that one? Then, on and off, they give him completely over the top powers and make him into a demigod, albiet with the mind of a sevrely confused individual with hauntings intact, and who was easily manipulated by Norman Osborn. Where Thor, or Cap, or any hero actually respecting him couldn't get in his head, Osborn did. That proves one thing: Sentry never had a stable, but an always confilcted mind. Hell, I will even go and say that he actually sways more to the negative mindset than positive. I would actually bet that Zod would cite his brief history, and talk to him, and convience him that this world is by far, far from deserving of his protection and that more fruitful and satisfying tasks on a cosmic scale are meant for him, ones he can accomplish with Zod. I would bet that would actually work on screwing Sentry's mind further. Aside form this, Sentry's 'overbilling' saw him unable to grasp his own reality, making him a completely loose canon item on the battlefield, who would sooner tilt on the Void side, decimating his own teammates first. With his stable mind, he couldn't stop Hulk, nor Thor. You could throw in an excuse or so for Thor, you definitely can't for Hulk. I personally DO NOT Think Hulk's beating Zod any day.

As for your concern of the others causing damage, I never said they won't. I never even said it was a cakewalk, as I clearly stated that certain character sets will fight back, but lose in the end. Hell, you even mention others among the line that would sooner stab some of their own in the back than defend them: Magneto. I wouldn't put him in my line up even if the crap falls hard. Quasar, another one not entirely symathetic in soul n' heart.

Another concern above from Redemption was that Rider could stake out Supergirl. 1) Amidst the carnage, even if he gets to specifically stake her out; 2) what's the sureity of him bringing her out of the equation. He couldn't take out Hulk. This is why I try to weight all possible angles before commenting. See, lets say he catches up with her, then 'penance stares' her down: All of these factors will likely override his 'judgement' ala Hulk: Supergirl lost her hoe to 'human machinations', and truly believes that humanity everywhere has the proverbial hole in it. Kryptonians can make this world as well, a better place, and in sincerity, the bad apples need to go first. That is the start of the 'comprehension'. A little farther and he will do the right thing: ride away. That is the likely scenario. The same principle will apply to Thor's Odinforce. It just doesnot work on an 'uncorrupted' power set. So, is the power set corrupted, is the heart heavy with guilt, or driven by a pure objective, even if it meas conquer the bad apples. Subjective questions, with mixed results. Each delaying, stemming the effectiveness in battle and each a hindrance as much as it is a plus. (again, unless the kryptonians are 'unrealistically' called truly eveil, somehow, these factors will be null n' void more than they are effective long before the few minutes battle culminates and comes to a head).

They are just opinions, but if you delve deeper into this, and see how the dynamics will work, you will see they work against as well as for. That is not a good equation when an army like that hurtles toward your ranks.

#54 Delta Force

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:03 PM

Coming over to marvel's side due to more people being introduced. This is one way marvel can win. If the are allowed to use the Infinity Mansion. Then I can stop thinking army and start thinking Guerrilla warfare.Which is (yes i have to explain) A form of irregular warfare and refers to conflicts in which a small group of combatants. Which use military tactics, such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to harass a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately.Yes they will lose their main bases but continue the fight. And with powerful power full people like Thor leading those groups it very possible for a win without friendly fire. Until some one figure out how to build a Red Sun Nuke.

#55 baneblade

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 12:29 PM

Coming over to marvel's side due to more people being introduced. This is one way marvel can win. If the are allowed to use the Infinity Mansion. Then I can stop thinking army and start thinking Guerrilla warfare.Which is (yes i have to explain) A form of irregular warfare and refers to conflicts in which a small group of combatants. Which use military tactics, such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to harass a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately.Yes they will lose their main bases but continue the fight. And with powerful power full people like Thor leading that group it very possible for a win without friendly fire. Until some one figure out how to build a Red Sun Nuke.


Guerilla warfare is a military or fighting unit tactic that involves one thing above all: painstaking planning and thorough consideration of liabaility and gain. In that, even if it was an option in a short run battle like this that will essentially span minutes if not more than a little over half an hour.

In that, there are the following mere facts:
- The Marvel U is up against the wall and any plans are thrown in measures, not pre-thought
- The Marvel U will still comprise, in guerilla warfare, components that do nto necessarily work together, or will stab each other in the back
- The Marvel U has among them many that are not especially familiar (entirely) with guerilla tactics and will have to be briefed

All of these work against them. Consider the fact also, that guerilla warfare is a specialty, whether you are super powered or not. The individuals waging such a war are comprehensively detailed on their directives, with both regards to their own beings, and their fellow troopers'/fighters'. An excercise that somone like Xavier could brief everyone on, but yet will not have fruitful results as the mere body language, attack mode, energy dispersion of many of the lineup does not work in the secretive, hit and run method.

I do see a pattern developing,(but knowing Ferret, it might dissipate as soon as it forms): we are down to desperate threads for the Marvel lineup.

Again, time, resources, grouping in, re-grouping, dismissing the initial strike are all luxuries that can not be realistically driven into the premise. especially when the attack is both from within, and out.

#56 Delta Force

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:01 PM

Don't mind me I already voted Brainiac and General Zod. But it's more interesting to debate from both sides of the fence. Marvel will majorly lose but who said they could not find other ways to fight back. It is possibly for them to win 7/20

#57 bigballerju

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 01:46 PM

Thanks to everyone who commented. Apparently people really liked this match and liked debating on it. Now I just need to figure out how many Kryptonians would truly die in this match for my second part with Zod's army. I still can't come up with a number

#58 Callisto

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 03:15 PM

Match Final Results
USER RATINGS
A
B Good story, but still the same common grammar errors ("there" where it often should be "they're" or "their") and a slight mismatch.
C It's a stomp match, which severely pulls the quality of the match down, but the setup is very well written and the personalities are kept fairly well, so it gets an okay from me.
A
A
C
A Great CBUB match, this is what it is all about.
SCORE
General Zod and Brainiac: 12
The Marvel Universe: 24
FPA: 3.3


#59 xLEGACYx

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:30 PM

Thanks to everyone who commented. Apparently people really liked this match and liked debating on it. Now I just need to figure out how many Kryptonians would truly die in this match for my second part with Zod's army. I still can't come up with a number

I would say aroun 1/3 of the kryptonians in my opinion.

#60 bigballerju

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Posted 04 May 2012 - 08:36 PM

Thanks to all for the good grades and comments. Although I thought with those grades I would be a little higher then a 3.3.




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