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#61 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:17 PM

You missed my point. I wasn't saying the storylines ten years ago were good (wrestling storylines have always been drek to me), just that they were far more adult than the stuff being written today. The reason I brought storylines up was to show that I'm not just referring to blood when I state the company has become PG. The instances you mentioned (necrophilia and hand pregnancy) kind of work in my point's favor; there's no way in hell you'd see that kind of stuff nowadays.

I didn't say I mainly watched TNA, I said TNA is all I had access to after my TV subscription to the sports channels ran out. The amount of WWE I've seen outweighs the amount of TNA I've seen by quite a bit. I prefer WWE, however I can say with the utmost of confidence that Sting > 90% of the WWE's current roster. Incidentally, TNA's storylines suck badly too.

And chances are I remember it being better before it went PG because it was better before it went PG. Maybe it's just me, but playing through the Attitude Era mode of WWE 13 and subsequently rewatching the original fights made me realize just how much more enjoyable I found matches back then. Fights were more brutal and violent. In my opinion, WWE haven't produced anything as epic as the likes of Undertaker and Mankind's Hell in a Cell match, Stone Cold's Three Stages of Hell match with Triple H, or Lesnar vs Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania in years.

#62 M Bison

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:39 PM

I watch wrestling for good old-fashioned violence, not good plots or storylines.

Thing is, the way wrestling works, you need interesting and compelling characters to make people care about those matches. Otherwise, you might as well watch real sports.

But if all you're interested in is matches, I'd say whether the product is PG or not matters even less. CM Punk/John Cena at Money in the Bank 2011, Triple H/Undertaker at Wrestlemania, Brock Lesnar/John Cena at Extreme Rules and Sheamus/Big Show at Hell in a Cell are excellent matches from the PG era that proved you can produce fantastic matches regardless of the TV rating.

Come to think of it, I can't remember the last time I saw a sledgehammer used in a WWE match...

Because it's a Triple H gimmick. He used it at 'Maina.

And chances are I remember it being better before it went PG because it was better before it went PG. Maybe it's just me, but playing through the Attitude Era mode of WWE 13 and subsequently rewatching the original fights made me realize just how much more enjoyable I found matches back then. Fights were more brutal and violent. In my opinion, WWE haven't produced anything as epic as the likes of Undertaker and Mankind's Hell in a Cell match, Stone Cold's Three Stages of Hell match with Triple H, or Lesnar vs Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania in years.

But the main strength of the Attitude Era was its characters. From an in ring perspective, it was probably the weakest the WWF has been in its history. In fact, the success of the WWF in this period is a good example supporting the argument that it's interesting characters that make wrestling, moreso than strong in ring performances.

Hell, the hight of the success of the WWF was the Hogan era. It was easily as PG as it is now.

#63 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:40 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong, there are characters I like. Just not storylines.

#64 M Bison

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 05:49 PM

Oh, don't get me wrong, there are characters I like. Just not storylines.


Reasonable. I'll agree to a lot of them being tosh. When they're done well though, they add a huge amount to matches and programming. To give a few examples: Hogan/Macho Man that festered for a whole year, Austin/McMahon, Batista leaving Evolution, Cm Punk threatening to leave the WWE with the belt.

#65 tomisntblue

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:20 PM

Let me preface this by acknowledging that I'm only keeping this argument up because I'm enjoying the discussion. I don't think you're necessarily wrong, because this is subjective. With that said...

You missed my point. I wasn't saying the storylines ten years ago were good (wrestling storylines have always been drek to me), just that they were far more adult than the stuff being written today. The reason I brought storylines up was to show that I'm not just referring to blood when I state the company has become PG. The instances you mentioned (necrophilia and hand pregnancy) kind of work in my point's favor; there's no way in hell you'd see that kind of stuff nowadays.


My point is I don't want to see those story lines. They were examples, I think, of some incredibly poor story lines despite being adult oriented. And weather story lines are good, bad, or indifferent, my main point goes back to, it's not an issue of being PG or not. In the PG era we had HBK vs Undertaker 1 and 2 and HHH vs Undertaker 1 and 2. We've also had Nexus come in various incarnations (I'm counting the Core as a Nexus incarnation). And there was also Punk and Jericho's couple month long feud. You take the good with the bad and hope that the matches and promos are entertaining in the meantime. And yes, bad story lines outweigh the good, but that is not a product of being PG. Nither is most of the bad in WWE right now.

I didn't say I mainly watched TNA, I said TNA is all I had access to after my TV subscription to the sports channels ran out. The amount of WWE I've seen outweighs the amount of TNA I've seen by quite a bit. I prefer WWE, however I can say with the utmost of confidence that Sting > 90% of the WWE's current roster. Incidentally, TNA's storylines suck badly too.


Well, in fairness, CM Punk > 90% of WWE's current roster. Same with Austin Aries. Hell Antonio Ceasaro > 90% of wrestlers on TV (don't believe me? Here)

Anyway, I just wanted to take a jab at Hogan Knows best... Er, that is, TNA. But, to be fair to them, they have great talent, Hogan just thinks a good way to get wrestlers over is have them kiss his ass in backstage promos.

And chances are I remember it being better before it went PG because it was better before it went PG. Maybe it's just me, but playing through the Attitude Era mode of WWE 13 and subsequently rewatching the original fights made me realize just how much more enjoyable I found matches back then. Fights were more brutal and violent. In my opinion, WWE haven't produced anything as epic as the likes of Undertaker and Mankind's Hell in a Cell match, Stone Cold's Three Stages of Hell match with Triple H, or Lesnar vs Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania in years.


Why were those matches epic though? Especially in the case of Lesnar vs Angle, which if I recall wasn't especially violent or bloody and focused more on their amateur backgrounds. The build up, the hype, the story line, is what puts them in such a high position. And it holds true even when you watch them back, because of nostalgia.

And, of course those matches were great. Those are some of the greatest matches that have happened. But do you remember Tajiri vs Batista? When Batista came out and squashed him. What about The Rock vs the Brooklyn Brawler? How about Razor Ramon vs Jeff Hardy? I can promise you, there are PLENTY more terrible matches back in the day than there are five star matches.

Now, circling back to my original statement which I've detracted from, the current problems in WWE are not a product of it being PG. They're a product of poor managed talent (we want Ryder!), predictable matches (though most matches are predictable if you follow the storylines), bad use of time (15 minutes of show time spent recapping recaps that were already recapped in last weeks recaps) and plenty of other things that a PG rating simple doesn't affect.

And finally, here is my last argument for PG not being a bad thing in wrestling.

#66 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 21 December 2012 - 06:46 PM

And finally, here is my last argument for PG not being a bad thing in wrestling.


I surrender

#67 M Bison

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:47 AM

Got back on shows last night, in an adults only show. Odd environment, seeing the guys come backstage after a hardcore match with ring crew following them frantically cleaning blood everywhere with one wrestler not giving a shit about the huge gash on his arm was interesting. 

As for my own role, I was filling in under a masked gimmick in a religious faction. Was good fun. Caught a dive and got the pin. Then we battered the poor bloke we were in there with.

 



#68 bigballerju

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 02:39 PM

John Cena is getting f**king annoying now. He may draw money but the way they use him will kill some of the up and comers if they don't let other stars shine. At least Orton puts guys over more and isn't Superman. Orton and Daniel Bryan had a great match with Shield.



#69 tomisntblue

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 04:00 PM

I haven't been in the ring for about 3 months now. In my last match my opponent botched a back suplex and I got a broken collarbone as a result. Still have 2 months to recover before I can wrestle again.

#70 Austo191

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:26 AM

For those here that are wrestlers, what kind of things do you do to stay in shape? Is cardio the most important thing?

Are you able to create your own gimmick? I have a few other questions, but I can't remember em' right now. I'm curious because Wrestling is something I've always wanted to do.



#71 M Bison

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:38 AM

I do wrestling training Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Saturday and twice on Sunday. Other than learning to wrestle, we do a fair bit of cardio and conditioning at the training sessions. 

I visit the gym 3-4 times a week. Chest day, back day, leg day, with a shoulder day if I can (otherwise I work shoulders at the end of chest and back day). 

Cardio is important, as is body type. Lose the flab if you're fat, put on muscle if you're skinny. Skinny wrestlers rarely get booked, and fat ones only do so if they're genuine monsters. 

I also need to get a tan soon. Spray tan though. I'm staying away from sunbeds. 

I've still got a long way to go bodywise. There are guys on the scene on steroids and it's almost impossible to keep up. 



#72 comic_book_fan

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:14 AM

what is hurting wrestling is that the shoot promo is lost in today's era if not for guys like punk 90% of wwe's roster has to be told what to say word for word that's the big advantage for the product of yesteryear most the big stars of the 50's through the 90's could all shoot that and they limit there wrestlers to much in ring as well they have generic big man style generic little man style I mean they gave DB a little more slack to wrestle his way and he is great. 



#73 bigballerju

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:55 AM

Comicbook fan is absolutely right. Shoot promo is where the greatest promo cutters like Rock, Stone Cold, Ric Flair, and others harnessed their mic skills. It allowed guys to find themselves and develop their mic skills. I also agree they need to stop telling guys to all wrestle the WWE which is boring fans and let them wrestle more their way like Danial Bryan. Danial Bryan is so hot right now you know soon he will be a top star. It's about time since he has been around since 1998. I see Ziggler, Shield, and more have finally been allowed to wrestle their way. All they need to do is bring back shoot promos.

 

For all the actual wrestlers how bad is it with steroids? Are a lot of young people still using it?



#74 Kate Awesome Is Awesome

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:40 AM

*sings Fandango theme*



#75 DSkillz

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:19 PM

Ah, I was waiting for traffic on this topic to pick up. 

 

Moved and pinned. :)



#76 M Bison

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:19 PM

I... don't think you guys know what a shoot promo is. You're talking about an ad libbed promo. A shoot is talking about reality. The Rock, Stone Cold etc all still spoke in terms of kayfabe. But I agree, I dislike that promos are scripted word for word. 

As for style - guys all do wrestle their own style, and they always have. Development doesn't kill a wrestlers style, it teaches them proper psychology. Big guys wrestle like big guys because it makes sense in terms of in ring psychology. If the big guy is doing moonsaults and dropkicks, no one gives a shit when the little guy does them. The big guy is more threatening as the slow, lumbering monster than he is as the surprisingly athletic big bloke. The monster is scarier. The monster will get more over, and make more money. Bryan looks and wrestles different to the wrestlers of the past because wrestling, like other forms of entertainment, evolves over time. Hogan and Flair looked very different to Lou Thesz as well. 

As for steroids, there are less of them now that the WWE won't touch you if you're on them, but many still use them. 



#77 bigballerju

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:33 PM

I know what a shoot promo is. It's going off script and more. That's not the term I meant to use. I just meant to say they need to stop with the script promos. Hell even Rock when he came back was being scripted and his promos were no where near what they use to be.



#78 M Bison

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 07:46 PM

Nah. The Rock was giving us what he'd always given us. The difference is, we've all grown up now. The Rocks shit has always been extremely immature. Massively charismatic, but the content was always immature. Be careful with those rose tinted specs, especially when discussing the Attitude Era. 



#79 comic_book_fan

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:17 PM

I... don't think you guys know what a shoot promo is. You're talking about an ad libbed promo. A shoot is talking about reality. The Rock, Stone Cold etc all still spoke in terms of kayfabe. But I agree, I dislike that promos are scripted word for word. 

As for style - guys all do wrestle their own style, and they always have. Development doesn't kill a wrestlers style, it teaches them proper psychology. Big guys wrestle like big guys because it makes sense in terms of in ring psychology. If the big guy is doing moonsaults and dropkicks, no one gives a shit when the little guy does them. The big guy is more threatening as the slow, lumbering monster than he is as the surprisingly athletic big bloke. The monster is scarier. The monster will get more over, and make more money. Bryan looks and wrestles different to the wrestlers of the past because wrestling, like other forms of entertainment, evolves over time. Hogan and Flair looked very different to Lou Thesz as well. 

As for steroids, there are less of them now that the WWE won't touch you if you're on them, but many still use them. 

my favorite big guy heel was vader because he was big strong mean and could do moonsaults.

I hate when people say HHH Austin and Arn Anderson were never good workers because they were slow and didn't fly across the ring they were great workers they could have long matches and  keep going at the same rate the entire match that's what made flair great.



#80 bigballerju

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:46 PM

Nah. The Rock was giving us what he'd always given us. The difference is, we've all grown up now. The Rocks shit has always been extremely immature. Massively charismatic, but the content was always immature. Be careful with those rose tinted specs, especially when discussing the Attitude Era. 

 

 The Rock's promos weren't always immature. He hadgreat promos back then as well. His promos with Triple H, Stone Cold, Y2J, and others were great. The Rock is definitely one of the best on the mic. In the second video Y2J gets angry and Rock does get serious. The video is second part of a promo.

 

 

 







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