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Match 11166 The Punisher vs. Justice League


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#21 Guest_Guest_*

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 09:10 PM

One point at a time then.

1. "Well one Punisher is a professional so trying to hit Batman with a sniper in a full of room of people at a party is just plain bad and amateur. Batman very easily can avoid it or someone will get in the way." No, sniping Batman in a room full of people at a party, is not unprofessional, it's intelligent. A. The Bat's movement is impaired due to being in a crowd, which makes it easier to get a good shot at him. And B.

2. "Nightwing is very good and you seem to not know him or completely ignore his skills as well as experience. Nightwing has even passed Bruce as a fighter and in some areas." I'm well aware that Nightwing is a better fighter than Batman. However, I'm also aware that he is very closely connected to Batman, emotionally, and that the Bat's death would hit him hard, which would in turn, impair his abilities. Grief and emotional trauma has a tendency to do that. Keep in mind, that Punisher has full information on the JLa members from Ra's and Luthor. Which means that he knows these things as well.

3. "Hawkman is more then capable of surviving a explosion and bullets with his durability unless this is Pre reboot which it isnt because he didn't specific so. Hawkman is so powerful now its not funny.", but just like prereboot, his powers are still connected to his Nth metal armor(at least his durability). Removing the armor/harness is relatively easy, especially for a marksman as skilled as Punisher, when Hawkman isn't expecting it. It's a simple matter of removing the harness, when Hawkman is high enough in the air for the fall to kill him or knock him unconscious. If the fall doesn't outright kill him, it's easy to take him out.

4. "You have your information confused on Green Lantern and Flash. That was a inexperienced Kyle who went against Slade. A Green Lantern now would never do that or react like that. Green Lantern now and experienced destroys Punisher. Punisher is not even capable physical wise and more to pull off what Slade or others did against Kyle or any other Lantern.". No, I'm not confusing anything. If Punisher gets up close and personal, before Kyle realizes he's there, then he is very much capable of doing the same thing. Using his own will power, along with physical pain, to counter Kyle's will power so he can't use the ring. Then shoot him repeatedly in the face. The only tricky part is actually getting that close without getting noticed, but even Green Lanterns have to sleep.

5. "Flash would not be so affected emotional wise that Punisher would beat him easily.". I never said that it would be easy, I said that it would be possible. Which is simply a fact. Against a completely unaffected Flash, Punisher wouldn't stand much of a chance. But in this case, this is Flash that has just had a large part of his friends, including some of the people he admired and respected the most, brutally murdered, all within a short span of time. He will definitely be affected enough, that it will negatively affect his performance.

6. "You seem to forget or ignore the heroes in DC are use to death because there allies are always dying.". Oh yes, of course they are used to it. That's why we still see them in deep grief, when one of the main characters die.[/sarcasm]

7. "Flash destroys Punisher and Punisher isn't smart enough or capable Physical wise to pull off what Slade or other villains have done against Flash." While it's true that Punisher isn't physically capable of out manouvering Flash in the way that Slade and others have done, he is definitely smart enough to set up a trap, that would have a definite chance of catching/killing him.

8. "Superman's armor is made of Kryptionan armor so bullets don't work and that would go for kryptonite too." Ah yes, because Superman tends to wear that armor all the time, even at the Daily Planet when going around as Clark Kent. Despite the fact that the armor hasn't been mentioned in the setup at all.

9. "Even if this is prereboot using a sniper would fail. Superman's super hearing would hear Frank pull the trigger and before the bullet would fire Superman would take out Frank in seconds. Punisher would have to shoot Superman up close." No, he wouldn't be able to hear the shot before the bullet hits him. It's called basic physics. The bullet moves faster than sound, thus it reaches Superman before the sound of the shot.

10. "But none of that would happen. Batman when it comes to villains trying to kill him always knows in advance as he has such a huge network of sources as well as snitches or allies or whatever. Batman would know something is up and inform the other members of the JLA." The problem with that scenario, is that in order for the "sources as well as snitches or allies" to inform Batman that Punisher is after him, they would first have to know about it, in order to tell it to anyone. The only way that would happen, would be if Punisher went through the motions of shaking various criminals for information, or equipment. But he already has all the information and equipment he needs, so the only ones that knows he's coming, is Lex Luthor, Ra's Al Ghul, and Punisher. Batman might be on his guard because Punisher has escaped from prison, but being on your guard won't stop a sniper round fired from a city block or two away.

#22 .Big Game James.

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:01 PM

let's just say if he's sniping he better snipe supes first!!! if he doesn't and takes out someone else first i'd not put it past supes, with his incredible hearing, to detect where the gunshot came from and stomp a mudhole in pun with flash right behind and green lantern creating a force field around the rest of the heroes deflecting even the strongest sniper rifle shells or machine guns or grenades etc. my opinion of course!

#23 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 10:08 PM

He's going after them one at a time...

#24 bigballerju

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:30 PM

Good points. I will reply to your post in bold.

One point at a time then.

1. "Well one Punisher is a professional so trying to hit Batman with a sniper in a full of room of people at a party is just plain bad and amateur. Batman very easily can avoid it or someone will get in the way." No, sniping Batman in a room full of people at a party, is not unprofessional, it's intelligent. A. The Bat's movement is impaired due to being in a crowd, which makes it easier to get a good shot at him. And B.

No too many obstacles, people, and the location would make it very hard. Thats depending on the fact also Frank would have to hit Batman through a perfect window and rely on Bruce just happening to be in the right place. Frank's vision in the scope of his sniper would be blocked with a room full of thousands of people. Frank would have to get a clear full because your forgetting the party would be indoors. Plus he is Bruce Wayne the playboy so he will always have people around him and women hanging on to him. Frank would not be able to get a clear shot at all. If Frank tries to hit Bruce that way he will miss or hit someone else. Frank only has so much room in his scope and with thousands of people around Bruce he won't get a shot off.

2. "Nightwing is very good and you seem to not know him or completely ignore his skills as well as experience. Nightwing has even passed Bruce as a fighter and in some areas." I'm well aware that Nightwing is a better fighter than Batman. However, I'm also aware that he is very closely connected to Batman, emotionally, and that the Bat's death would hit him hard, which would in turn, impair his abilities. Grief and emotional trauma has a tendency to do that. Keep in mind, that Punisher has full information on the JLa members from Ra's and Luthor. Which means that he knows these things as well.

Nope it wouldn't impair his abilities. If anything when things like that happen to Batman it has strengthen his mission and duty. It makes him even more determined. Same thing with Batman and others in DC. Luthor backing him doesn't mean much here as Luthor has failed more then any of the other villains in DC. The only thing it means is Frank getting weapons and tech to get the jobs done if he plans it right. Nothing more. We saw how Nightwing reacted already when Batman died. Nightwing knew he had to do what was best for him, Gotham, and more. Nightwing would know Bruce in death like we already saw would never want his death to influence him in his mission and battles against evil.

3. "Hawkman is more then capable of surviving a explosion and bullets with his durability unless this is Pre reboot which it isnt because he didn't specific so. Hawkman is so powerful now its not funny.", but just like prereboot, his powers are still connected to his Nth metal armor(at least his durability). Removing the armor/harness is relatively easy, especially for a marksman as skilled as Punisher, when Hawkman isn't expecting it. It's a simple matter of removing the harness, when Hawkman is high enough in the air for the fall to kill him or knock him unconscious. If the fall doesn't outright kill him, it's easy to take him out.

Hawkman in the reboot has his armor and whole gear bonded to him so there is no removing it at all and its completely different from Pre-reboot. Plus his whole armor and more in the reboot is literally underneath his human skin to come out whenever he wants since its bonded to him for good. Completely different from Pre-reboot and not even Lex Or Ra's will have the means to remove it. Reboot Hawkman's durability is high to the point he can take blows from Black Adam and thats including a healing factor that Hawkman has. Hawkman has superhuman strength and other abilities. Frank has no way of killing Hawkman. Ra's and Lex know nothing of Hawkman's abilities or his armor.

4. "You have your information confused on Green Lantern and Flash. That was a inexperienced Kyle who went against Slade. A Green Lantern now would never do that or react like that. Green Lantern now and experienced destroys Punisher. Punisher is not even capable physical wise and more to pull off what Slade or others did against Kyle or any other Lantern.". No, I'm not confusing anything. If Punisher gets up close and personal, before Kyle realizes he's there, then he is very much capable of doing the same thing. Using his own will power, along with physical pain, to counter Kyle's will power so he can't use the ring. Then shoot him repeatedly in the face. The only tricky part is actually getting that close without getting noticed, but even Green Lanterns have to sleep.

No Kyle has never done the same thing since then if Identity Crisis even happened in the reboot which I don't believe it did. A experienced Kyle now is one of the best in the Green Lantern Corps. Kyle has never resulted to such a physical action like that since then. Unlike Hal Jordan Kyle and other Lanterns always have there ring on. Not only that with there Green Lantern ring on there force field is always on and can take attacks from cosmic foes. Like I said Frank would lose here horriblely.

5. "Flash would not be so affected emotional wise that Punisher would beat him easily.". I never said that it would be easy, I said that it would be possible. Which is simply a fact. Against a completely unaffected Flash, Punisher wouldn't stand much of a chance. But in this case, this is Flash that has just had a large part of his friends, including some of the people he admired and respected the most, brutally murdered, all within a short span of time. He will definitely be affected enough, that it will negatively affect his performance.

You don't know in what order Frank will attack the heroes. But it doesn't matter as like other heroes in DC a death wouldn't affect them mentally and more to the point in battle it would be a huge disadvantage for them. It only strengthens there mission as a hero and more. Frank has no way of killing Flash. Flash has a super healing factor cause of his super speed and connection to the speed force. Reverse Flash tried all that mental stuff with Barry Allen when he killed his mother and the only thing it got him was Barry killing him as he snapped his neck. It won't affect Flash and even if Frank attempts a plan to but down Flash. There is one thing your forgetting. Frank is not capable physical wise of even hitting Flash with any weapon what so ever. Deathstroke was a superhuman who was way past even Captain America. Frank no matter what plan is not fast enough to even hit Flash with a fatal blow. Plus it wouldn't matter because of the healing factor.


6. "You seem to forget or ignore the heroes in DC are use to death because there allies are always dying.". Oh yes, of course they are used to it. That's why we still see them in deep grief, when one of the main characters die.[/sarcasm]

Yes DC Heroes are use to death. Green Lantern, Superman, and others have all joked in there world death and coming to life seems to be a constant cycle. It only strengthens there mission to continue there goals as Heroes and pay respects to there fallen comrades. There is no one here that will die and affect the other members in way that will be a huge disadvantage for them.

7. "Flash destroys Punisher and Punisher isn't smart enough or capable Physical wise to pull off what Slade or other villains have done against Flash." While it's true that Punisher isn't physically capable of out manouvering Flash in the way that Slade and others have done, he is definitely smart enough to set up a trap, that would have a definite chance of catching/killing him.

Read the previous post on Flash which I already replied to your Flash posts.

8. "Superman's armor is made of Kryptionan armor so bullets don't work and that would go for kryptonite too." Ah yes, because Superman tends to wear that armor all the time, even at the Daily Planet when going around as Clark Kent. Despite the fact that the armor hasn't been mentioned in the setup at all.

Here on CBUB unless said in the setup which it wasn't we go with the current vision of characters. Superman's armor which is his suit is underneath his human skin which he can simply have come out when he needs it. There is no need for him to say whether or not he has it because thats something that obvious that Superman is gone have since thats his new costume in the reboot. However I don't need to tell you Superman doesn't even need his suit to be a armor like sustance.

9. "Even if this is prereboot using a sniper would fail. Superman's super hearing would hear Frank pull the trigger and before the bullet would fire Superman would take out Frank in seconds. Punisher would have to shoot Superman up close." No, he wouldn't be able to hear the shot before the bullet hits him. It's called basic physics. The bullet moves faster than sound, thus it reaches Superman before the sound of the shot.

Basic physics? This is comics and Superman has super hearing. Superman has shown to be able to hear Someone pull a trigger before the bullet is fired and then reach that person before that bullet even leaves the gun at times. The bullet moves faster then sound? Well Superman moves faster then light......... Ever hear of Superman moves faster then a speeding bullet phase? LOL I shouldn't even have to defend Superman on this has he has done all of this a million times in comics. Like I said Punisher would have to fire that gun up close and he would have to do it while Superman wasn't expecting it or distracted.

10. "But none of that would happen. Batman when it comes to villains trying to kill him always knows in advance as he has such a huge network of sources as well as snitches or allies or whatever. Batman would know something is up and inform the other members of the JLA." The problem with that scenario, is that in order for the "sources as well as snitches or allies" to inform Batman that Punisher is after him, they would first have to know about it, in order to tell it to anyone. The only way that would happen, would be if Punisher went through the motions of shaking various criminals for information, or equipment. But he already has all the information and equipment he needs, so the only ones that knows he's coming, is Lex Luthor, Ra's Al Ghul, and Punisher. Batman might be on his guard because Punisher has escaped from prison, but being on your guard won't stop a sniper round fired from a city block or two away.

Batman could find out through people that work for Lex Luthor or Ra's Al Ghul. Batman in the past with both men has found out what either were planning through that way actually. Batman could also track where Punisher went through his source of allies and technology. Batman could find out who broke him out and more. Batman could figure the plan out by contacting Martian Manhunter and having him locate Frank through telepathy. Batman could contact Zatanna or others. Batman has so many options its come to the point its more of what doesn't he know about since he knows about most things going on since he keeps tabs. Batman with his intellect would figure it out before Punisher was even finished planning his move. Batman would be ready for Punisher to try all sorts of attacks. He would call in allies and more. When Punisher is coming to Gotham Batman would be ready for him and have his own attack waiting for Frank.



#25 Rupertmetal

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:48 AM

Good debate. One person that hasn't been mentioned yet is Wonder Woman. The ultimate bullet deflector. I think the JLA would eventually win. Punisher can't attack them all alone at the same time. There would be time between each attack, and in that time after kill 1, 2 or 3 the rest of the JLA would figure out someone is trying to pick them off one at a time. They'd work together to set a trap, lure Punisher in and catch him. So again, I think JLA wins, but I think Punish gets 1 to 3 kills. Not bad for someone without powers.

#26 bigballerju

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 12:59 AM

Exactly once Batman tries to kill one person it won't matter if he succeeds or not. Because the rest of the members Frank has to kill will know someone is targeting them and something is up. From then on Frank fails in his mission.

Frank will probably succeed with Question and Red Arrow. Thats about it.

#27 badpierce

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:15 AM

Well I have never read the new 52 so I did not have that in mind when I posted it. To be clear its "classic jla". Are red arrow and question even in it now? I believe green lantern was made blind in the comics as per batmans plan and flash was somehow made unstable. His atoms where moving so fast he was about to fall apart(I might have that wrong)

As for the nameless goons comment I made, it has been a while. I Who did the attacks? His daughter?

As for the punisher not sniping in public, he tried to kill Osborn at a press conference so a party a Wayne manner isn't a stretch really. And any human dodging a bullet is just good comic book mechanics.

#28 badpierce

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:18 AM

Lol I didn't put manhunter and wonder woman in this match for a reason. They are not a factor.

#29 badpierce

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Posted 06 April 2012 - 07:39 AM

http://en.m.wikipedi...Babel#section_1
He are the batman plans that Ra's took from batman in tower of babel.

#30 batmanKing989

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 04:48 PM

ok, i see how you set up and this is based off of the comic but the way i see it the justice leage wins because it has batman, superman isn't much but he is industructable but krptinite hurts him so unless punisher has krptinite then they got that, flash is fast but clumsy, marsain manhunter is awesome he seems like he could beat punisher, and the justice leage just keeps going and going like green lantern, wonder woman so in this case i think punisher wins

#31 batmanKing989

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 04:48 PM

ok, i see how you set up and this is based off of the comic but the way i see it the justice leage wins because it has batman, superman isn't much but he is industructable but krptinite hurts him so unless punisher has krptinite then they got that, flash is fast but clumsy, marsain manhunter is awesome he seems like he could beat punisher, and the justice leage just keeps going and going like green lantern, wonder woman so in this case i think punisher wins

LOL i meant i think justice leage wins

#32 DSkillz

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 06:14 PM

Not a bad Tower of Babel-themed set-up, badpierce. Punisher definitely has a shot at picking off the Justice League members one by one, especially with Luthor's and Al Ghul's backing. As mentioned, though, Batman would eventually catch on to this plan, and the remaining members would likely regroup eventually and take Frank down.

LOL i meant i think justice leage wins


You can edit your own posts, you know. No need to double-post.

#33 Guest_badpierce_*

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:09 PM

Thanks DSkillz. 2 of my favorite comics. I need to dig up Tower of Babel and read it again. You know I thought about killing batman in the setup but I have made the mistake of killing batman before and the people where not happy.

On a side note, is it just me or do matches stay up longer these days?

#34 DSkillz

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Posted 07 April 2012 - 09:17 PM

On a side note, is it just me or do matches stay up longer these days?


Yep, FoxFingers mentioned that matches stay up for five days now.

http://www.electricf...83

You guys really need to check his website updates more often, heh.




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