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Can this team beat Dark Phoenix?


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#41 sirmethos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 10:40 AM

You dont know what Dark Phoenix is then. The vessel of Jean Grey is just that a vessel that can die and be rebon infinite times. Dark Phoenix is is the powqer not Jean Grey. You still think of her as the power like i said she is a vessel and only when Jean struggles with restraining that power is she vulnerable (her not the entity) It has already brought her back to life numerous times. she stomps the team in power abilities speed and all else due to the fact it is the Phoenix Force entity. GEt over the Oh its JEan Grey and she is only human. Jean Grey is not even part of the equation. Sorry but powered buy the uncontroled Phoenix Force she is able to move faster then anyone on the list.


You're still not getting it.

Dark Phoenix is not Jean Grey. Dark Phoenix's body is not Jean Grey.

Dark Phoenix is the Phoenix Force in a physical body, gone mad. And is limited by its physical body. The physical body can die or get destroyed, which would release the Phoenix Force, at which point the Dark Phoenix effectively ceases to exist.


Also, you keep claiming that Dark Phoenix has the speed and reaction time, to easily take out the entire team, but you're still not providing any proof.

That said, you have about 29 hours left, to provide proof :)


Do you think Darkseid could solo?


In some scenarios, yes. In most scenarios, his physical body would be destroyed in seconds.

#42 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 11:22 AM

You're still not getting it.

Dark Phoenix is not Jean Grey. Dark Phoenix's body is not Jean Grey.

Dark Phoenix is the Phoenix Force in a physical body, gone mad. And is limited by its physical body. The physical body can die or get destroyed, which would release the Phoenix Force, at which point the Dark Phoenix effectively ceases to exist.


Also, you keep claiming that Dark Phoenix has the speed and reaction time, to easily take out the entire team, but you're still not providing any proof.

That said, you have about 29 hours left, to provide proof :)




In some scenarios, yes. In most scenarios, his physical body would be destroyed in seconds.



whoa, limited to a human body but isn't human? How is the Dark Phoenix limited at all, when it's pure energy based being? She is telekinetic and is not bound to human limits. You ask or proof, and give none to prove that she is even limited and bound to a human body?

Just to inform Jean Grey has the Phoenix Force, it learned to love, hate etc via Jeans human emotions and went mad, that version of Jean could kill almost anyone

#43 sirmethos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 11:46 AM

-snip-


And you're still getting it wrong.

I'll repeat it(once again) Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix.

The Dark Phoenix, is the Phoenix Force, in a body created by the Phoenix Force, a copy of Jean Grey's body, with Jean Grey's borrowed memories. But again Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix.


Now, to answer some of your questions:

"How is the Dark Phoenix limited at all, when it's pure energy based being?"

Dark Phoenix is not a pure energy based being. The Phoenix Force is a pure energy based being. The Dark Phoenix, is the Phoenix Force in a regular human(mutant) body, and it is limited by being in that body.


"She is telekinetic and is not bound to human limits."

Last I checked, being a telekinetic did not mean that the character is not bound to human limits. Cable is a telekinetic, but is physically still limited to what his body can and cannot do. Psylocke is a telekinetic, but is still limited to what her body can and cannot do. Hellion is a telekinetic, but is physically still limited to what his body can and cannot do. Etc. etc. etc.


"You ask or proof, and give none to prove that she is even limited and bound to a human body?"

First of all. You can't prove a negative. Since you are the ones making the claim(that she is capable of moving and reacting at faster than light speeds), the burden of proof is on you. I am simply saying that your claim is false. Second of all, if you need proof that she is bound to a human body, then you have obviously not read the Phoenix Saga and the Dark Phoenix Saga, and have no place, whatsoever, in this debate.


"Just to inform Jean Grey has the Phoenix Force, it learned to love, hate etc via Jeans human emotions and went mad, that version of Jean could kill almost anyone"

I'll repeat(again): "Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix."

When Dark Phoenix was active, Jean Grey was in a coma, in a cocoon underwater.


Edit: 28 hours left.

#44 Bladephyre

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 11:51 AM

whoa, limited to a human body but isn't human? How is the Dark Phoenix limited at all, when it's pure energy based being? She is telekinetic and is not bound to human limits. You ask or proof, and give none to prove that she is even limited and bound to a human body?

Just to inform Jean Grey has the Phoenix Force, it learned to love, hate etc via Jeans human emotions and went mad, that version of Jean could kill almost anyone


Did you even read the comics or what he said?

The Dark Phoenix is NOT a pure energy being, it is an energy being inside a copy of Jean's body. The body is what gives it the limitation of human reactions and durability.
The Phoenix force is a pure energy being.

You are getting facts of the Phoenix force confused with the Dark Phoenix.

there are 3 main parts here.

1. The Phoenix force, energy being.
2. Jean/Phoenix. Phoenix force in Jean's body, the power of the Phoenix but with Jean's reactions, durability, and emotions.
3. Dark Phoenix. Phoenix force, now out of jean, makes a copy of her and inhabits it. Just like the Jean/Phoenix combination but insane from overpowering emotions.

This fight is over in less than a second one way or another. One of two things will happen.

1. Phoenix gets her shield up and overpowers them. Whether from having them up already, or if they do not attack fast enough.

2. She does not get them up in time and she gets splattered.

There are 3 things that has to happen for them to win:

1. Catch her by surprise: If she sees them first, she will shield up and they are screwed.
2. Jump her when she is on a planet. If she is in space she has to have her shields up already due to simply being in space.
3. Instantly speed blitz. If they do not go for a fast attack fight thing, back to point one.

#45 comic_book_fan

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:33 PM

And you're still getting it wrong.

I'll repeat it(once again) Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix.

The Dark Phoenix, is the Phoenix Force, in a body created by the Phoenix Force, a copy of Jean Grey's body, with Jean Grey's borrowed memories. But again Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix.


Now, to answer some of your questions:

"How is the Dark Phoenix limited at all, when it's pure energy based being?"

Dark Phoenix is not a pure energy based being. The Phoenix Force is a pure energy based being. The Dark Phoenix, is the Phoenix Force in a regular human(mutant) body, and it is limited by being in that body.


"She is telekinetic and is not bound to human limits."

Last I checked, being a telekinetic did not mean that the character is not bound to human limits. Cable is a telekinetic, but is physically still limited to what his body can and cannot do. Psylocke is a telekinetic, but is still limited to what her body can and cannot do. Hellion is a telekinetic, but is physically still limited to what his body can and cannot do. Etc. etc. etc.


"You ask or proof, and give none to prove that she is even limited and bound to a human body?"

First of all. You can't prove a negative. Since you are the ones making the claim(that she is capable of moving and reacting at faster than light speeds), the burden of proof is on you. I am simply saying that your claim is false. Second of all, if you need proof that she is bound to a human body, then you have obviously not read the Phoenix Saga and the Dark Phoenix Saga, and have no place, whatsoever, in this debate.


"Just to inform Jean Grey has the Phoenix Force, it learned to love, hate etc via Jeans human emotions and went mad, that version of Jean could kill almost anyone"

I'll repeat(again): "Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix."

When Dark Phoenix was active, Jean Grey was in a coma, in a cocoon underwater.


Edit: 28 hours left.

but it does not matter that the clone was not realy jean grey because it had all her thoughts and memories and thought that it was her so it acted the same way she would have tring to protect her friends by leting herself become vulnerable so they could stop her his point still stands regardless of the fact that she was not the real jean. also she has to go faster then light to enter hyperspace which means she moves faster then light which means she can react at light speeds if she can react at light then they are hundreds of ways she can kill everyone on this team in one thought.

#46 kainboa

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:44 PM

but it does not matter that the clone was not realy jean grey because it had all her thoughts and memories and thought that it was her so it acted the same way she would have tring to protect her friends by leting herself become vulnerable so they could stop her his point still stands regardless of the fact that she was not the real jean. also she has to go faster then light to enter hyperspace which means she moves faster then light which means she can react at light speeds if she can react at light then they are hundreds of ways she can kill everyone on this team in one thought.


Okay, since you seem to have a hard time understanding the concept of a debate, I'll try to explain it to you.

You make a claim, stating that Dark phoenix can move faster than light, since somebody is doubting that claim, you need to provide evidence for it.

Methos made a claim about some of the members of the team who are opposing her being capable of fighting at faster than light speed, this claim was doubted, and he provided evidence to support his claim.

Do you see the difference?

All you are doing is claiming that Dark Phoenix is faster than light, but providing no evidence, since there is no evidence, we cannot accept this claim as true and thus the claim is ignored.

Once you actually provide evidence for your claim, it will be considered valid, but until that point, it will have to be generally accepted that she is not faster than light, since there is no evidence to support that particular claim

#47 sirmethos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 12:49 PM

but it does not matter that the clone was not realy jean grey because it had all her thoughts and memories and thought that it was her so it acted the same way she would have tring to protect her friends by leting herself become vulnerable so they could stop her his point still stands regardless of the fact that she was not the real jean. also she has to go faster then light to enter hyperspace which means she moves faster then light which means she can react at light speeds if she can react at light then they are hundreds of ways she can kill everyone on this team in one thought.


1. Being able to enter hyperspace does not necessarily mean that you are able to move faster than light. A good example of this is Slipstream, who has the power to open a Hyperspace portal, to travel between any two points in the universe. He can enter Hyperspace, but he can neither Move, nor React at faster than light speeds.

2. Being able to travel faster than light, from point A to point B, does not mean you can react at speeds faster than light. Graviton is a good example of this.

3. You're still making claims without providing proof. 27 hours left.

#48 comic_book_fan

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 01:08 PM

1. Being able to enter hyperspace does not necessarily mean that you are able to move faster than light. A good example of this is Slipstream, who has the power to open a Hyperspace portal, to travel between any two points in the universe. He can enter Hyperspace, but he can neither Move, nor React at faster than light speeds.

2. Being able to travel faster than light, from point A to point B, does not mean you can react at speeds faster than light. Graviton is a good example of this.

3. You're still making claims without providing proof. 27 hours left.

i gave you feats and i gave you issue numbers and you said you were going to go check them out then you have not responded before now and still have not struck down my claim it is issue 105 in the original phoenix saga

#49 sirmethos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 01:13 PM

i gave you feats and i gave you issue numbers and you said you were going to go check them out then you have not responded before now and still have not struck down my claim it is issue 105 in the original phoenix saga


I'm working on getting the comic downloaded as we speak.

The feat you say is in that issue though, is only FTL movement, not FTL reflexes.

#50 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 01:18 PM

I read all the comics, you guys are making false claims

1. The Dark Phoenix is nt human as you say, but has human limitations? Yeah that is all wrong, read the comics again guys

2. She is pure energy/ telekinetic being that thinks she is bound to a human body, again how is she limited to any human limitations in fact that probably made her stronger she it now knows human emotion such as anger

3. If you read the comics watched the shows, she moves beyond light, did she not teleport herself and others to Earth from space? She flew past a shiar ship and plunge into a sun? Has she not opened portals?

4. And if everyone is Ftl but not her, how does that make them win? Se is still capable of stopping them telekinetically and would have no shot

The burden of proof is on us? Yet you are the ones claiming that since some is Ftl they win automatically? Not so, not even close in this fight

Also now you are saying she can move that fast but has limits on her reflexes? Since you are making that false testimony, show proof that se can't react as fast as we say?

#51 sirmethos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 01:28 PM

I read all the comics, you guys are making false claims

1. The Dark Phoenix is nt human as you say, but has human limitations? Yeah that is all wrong, read the comics again guys

2. She is pure energy/ telekinetic being that thinks she is bound to a human body, again how is she limited to any human limitations in fact that probably made her stronger she it now knows human emotion such as anger

3. If you read the comics watched the shows, she moves beyond light, did she not teleport herself and others to Earth from space? She flew past a shiar ship and plunge into a sun? Has she not opened portals?

4. And if everyone is Ftl but not her, how does that make them win? Se is still capable of stopping them telekinetically and would have no shot

The burden of proof is on us? Yet you are the ones claiming that since some is Ftl they win automatically? Not so, not even close in this fight


1. Again, the Dark Phoenix has a purely human body(a perfect copy of Jean Grey's body).

2. She is not a pure energy being, she has a human body(a copy of Jean Grey's body). That is why she went mad and became the Dark Phoenix in the first place.

3. Again, moving at faster than light speeds, from point A to point B, =/= reacting at speeds faster than light.

4. She can't stop them if she can't react fast enough(i.e. they can hit her before she uses her powers).

5. Are you purposely trying to be obtuse, or does it come natural? Let me put it like this, if someone pointing a flashlight at you, turns the flashlight on, can you react fast enough to get your hands up, or move out of the way, before the light from the flashlight hits you? The answer to that is, No, you can't, because you are not capable of reacting that fast. The same is the case here. If the 3(or 4) people move, faster than light(or even close to it), towards her, then she won't be able to raise a shield, or move out of the way to avoid being hit. Why? Because she is not capable of reacting that fast. You claim that she can react that fast, but so far you have failed to provide any proof to back up your claim.

That said, you have about 26.5 hours left.

#52 Bladephyre

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 01:28 PM

Nobody said that because they are FTL they win automatically.

If you actually read what I posted I showed exactly how they can win and how they can lose.

They honestly have more of a chance to lose than to win.

#53 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 01:42 PM

:) How many more times will sirmethos repeat himself until they get it. Any bets?

#54 sirmethos

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 08:08 PM

Ok, I've just looked through The X-Men #105.

6.in x-men 105 the shiar are chaseing her in as fast as they can without going into hyperspace the (the speed of light) and she leavs them sitting.


And you must have gotten the issue wrong, 'cos there are no Shi'ar chasing her in that particular issue. #105 is the issue where she fights Firelord, and where the X-men jump through the portal and end up in the Shi'ar Empire.

#55 patrickthekid

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 08:11 PM

I'm just going to say that the Fury has the best chance against Dark Phoenix and has a good chance in doing so ala Mad Jim Jaspers.

#56 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 11:13 PM

well actually Sirmethos you are not entirely correct.

I will put this in your way, as so we cannot say we are not on the same page.

you said: Dark Phoenix is not Jean Grey, ok I am with you on that, but Dark Phoenix has never been stated to create life, so how has she made a perfect human body? Unless wait, it wasn't and it was just a telekinetic being made to look human, or it was Dark Phoenix thinking she was still in Jean's Body, or it was Jean's mind still thinking it was not in the cocoon.
I am still looking to see where it shows her being limited to a human physically. I understand that she would place those limits on herself, but I fail to see her doing that to get killed on purpose. Going by the show, 90's cartoon I mean (and I will go into the comics after) she took on everyone and only waited because she relished in stalling (PIS or comic mechanics as you put it)

Gladiator was made a fool instantly, sun was made a fool instantly, and the fact that she can survive the core of a sun being destroyed, she can easily, I repeat easily kill everyone on this list.

Not only do you say she loses to most everyone one on one, you say easily, as a semi comic fan, I figured you would know that is bullocks, and would at least make an argument that is valid. (It is not valid to pick out one small and insignificant thing to say she loses, the fact that of all your comments you focus on her being human and thus limited to human capabilities, yet you say she will win easily if she does use her powers? Well you assume this fight is her standing around and everyone already pouncing on her? This fight could be 1 million miles away and she would still win, if they all know what's happening she wins, if she doesn't she wins. Simple as that.

Oh and I like how you have Hayes as your personal lackey ahahaha I guess I know you are his leader

#57 sirmethos

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:41 AM

-snip-


-sigh-

Are you being purposely obtuse, or does it come natural?


"you said: Dark Phoenix is not Jean Grey, ok I am with you on that, but Dark Phoenix has never been stated to create life, so how has she made a perfect human body? Unless wait, it wasn't and it was just a telekinetic being made to look human, or it was Dark Phoenix thinking she was still in Jean's Body, or it was Jean's mind still thinking it was not in the cocoon."

Dark Phoenix didn't create the human body, the Phoenix Force did.

The Phoenix Force is an extremely powerful cosmic entity. Dark Phoenix is the Phoenix Force in a human(Jean Grey's) body, gone mad.



"I am still looking to see where it shows her being limited to a human physically."

Try actually reading the Phoenix Saga and the Dark Phoenix Saga. The Dark Phoenix = The Phoenix Force in a human body. Being in a human body, it is limited by the capabilities of that body.


"Gladiator was made a fool instantly, sun was made a fool instantly, and the fact that she can survive the core of a sun being destroyed, she can easily, I repeat easily kill everyone on this list."

When the sun was destroyed, she already had her telekinetic shield in place.


"Not only do you say she loses to most everyone one on one, you say easily, as a semi comic fan, I figured you would know that is bullocks, and would at least make an argument that is valid. (It is not valid to pick out one small and insignificant thing to say she loses, the fact that of all your comments you focus on her being human and thus limited to human capabilities, yet you say she will win easily if she does use her powers? Well you assume this fight is her standing around and everyone already pouncing on her? This fight could be 1 million miles away and she would still win, if they all know what's happening she wins, if she doesn't she wins. Simple as that."

Yes, she could lose to most of them(4 of them to be precise), easily. Why? Because her speed and reflexes are at normal human levels, and 4 of the people on the team are FTL and capable of blitzing her before she has a chance to use her powers.

The OP asks "Can this team beat Dark Phoenix?". And the answer is: Yes, they can. If they blitz her and take advantage of the fact that she has normal human reflexes.

If she has a chance to use her powers, then she is powerful enough to annihilate most of the team in seconds. But the fact that her speed and, more importantly, reflexes, are at normal human levels, means that Yes, the team would be able to beat her.


Would they beat her in every scenario? Hell no.

Can they beat her? Yes, if they take advantage of her weakness(normal human reflexes) and blitz her. Aka. the answer to the OP question(as I've been saying from the beginning), is Yes.


Edit: Roughly 16 hours left, to provide proof of your claim that Dark Phoenix can react at speeds faster than light. If no evidence is given, then I'll(as already mentioned) consider the argument conceded. If your claim is true, then it should be easy to find proof of it.

#58 shellsbut

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 02:28 AM

1. Being able to enter hyperspace does not necessarily mean that you are able to move faster than light. A good example of this is Slipstream, who has the power to open a Hyperspace portal, to travel between any two points in the universe. He can enter Hyperspace, but he can neither Move, nor React at faster than light speeds.

2. Being able to travel faster than light, from point A to point B, does not mean you can react at speeds faster than light. Graviton is a good example of this.

3. You're still making claims without providing proof. 27 hours left.



You just dont get it. Without the influence of Jean holding the power back this fight lasts 2 seconds and Dark Phoenix destroys them all. Again twit read up and get over the Jean Grey aspect. 27 hours left?I need 1 minute to prove you wrong. Are you intentionally stupid? With a range of powers like below none of them saves the Fury could even hurt her. With her stats clearly displayed on every recognized Marvel sites, hands down she wins and is capable of almost anything.

The Phoenix Force has all these powers

Virtually omnipotent

Matter and energy manipulation

Life force manipulation

Cosmic awareness

Prescience

Dark Phoenix has all these powers she is not like others that have had the Phoenix Force lose its and only retain a small fraction of the power. She had all the power they were one bieng with Jean sometimes fighting for control surpressing the power.


HMMM speed?

http://marvel.com/im...s_2/image/85990




Even Marvel editors say she moves faster then light, so get a life. You are wrong. IF MARVEL Staff/creators and so on clearly state it then "IT" is as so. So let me guess, in your little word the company that owns the rights and has final word is wrong and you are now some how an authority above them? Should we alert the press and let them know sirmethos is going to rewrite the company the way he wants it because he lost an argument. Marvel isnt in charge now? You are atwit, i side with Marvel you argument is now mute. Awe you lose. Now go make me a sandwich.

Oh wait you might have another moronic response.

#59 shellsbut

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:02 AM

Oh and later card sets have light speed as only level 6, 7 goes beyond that to instantaneous/teleport anywhere in the universe any time you want.

#60 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:12 AM

-sigh-

Are you being purposely obtuse, or does it come natural?

:) Best rumble ever.




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