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Can this team beat Dark Phoenix?


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#21 comic_book_fan

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 03:36 PM

Not quite.

Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix, she never has been. The Dark Phoenix was the Phoenix Force in a copy of Jean's body(created by the Phoenix Force itself, using Jean Grey's memories), that had been driven mad.

At the time of the Dark Phoenix, Jean Grey was comatose, still being healed in a cocoon(again, created by the Phoenix Force).


The whole point of the Dark Phoenix, was that the Phoenix Force itself, was in a mortal, human body and was driven crazy. There was never any changes made to her physical form.


And no, she can not move at the speed of light, nor can she react at that speed. What she can do, is create portals that allows her to travel almost instantly, to pretty much anywhere in the universe. She is, however, still limited by her physical body.

in x-men the end casandra nova while controled by the phoenix ripped gladiator's head off.
and in one of her first aperinces she beat down firelord who is faster then light.
so yeah dp can move faster then light and no one here can realy hurt her.

#22 sirmethos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 03:47 PM

in x-men the end casandra nova while controled by the phoenix ripped gladiator's head off.
and in one of her first aperinces she beat down firelord who is faster then light.
so yeah dp can move faster then light and no one here can realy hurt her.


1. X-men: The End, is not canon in the 616 continuity.

2. Firelord is not faster than light(just like Silver Surfer, he jumps into Hyperspace once he passes the speed of light)

3. Dark Phoenix has regular human speed and reflexes/reaction time, and is physically a regular human/mutant.


Though, tell you what. If you can provide a scan(or give provide me with the comics issue) of Dark Phoenix moving and reacting faster than light, then I'll concede the argument right there.

On the other hand, just to make it fair, if no one has provided a scan within the next 48 hours(should be more than enough time), or if the comics issue does not show DP moving and reacting faster than light, then I'll consider that as the rest of you conceding the argument. :)

After all, if she really can move and react faster than light, as you claim, then it should be easy to find proof. :(

#23 allicew

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 04:18 PM

1. X-men: The End, is not canon in the 616 continuity.

2. Firelord is not faster than light(just like Silver Surfer, he jumps into Hyperspace once he passes the speed of light)

3. Dark Phoenix has regular human speed and reflexes/reaction time, and is physically a regular human/mutant.


Though, tell you what. If you can provide a scan(or give provide me with the comics issue) of Dark Phoenix moving and reacting faster than light, then I'll concede the argument right there.

On the other hand, just to make it fair, if no one has provided a scan within the next 48 hours(should be more than enough time), or if the comics issue does not show DP moving and reacting faster than light, then I'll consider that as the rest of you conceding the argument. :)

After all, if she really can move and react faster than light, as you claim, then it should be easy to find proof. :)


Sorry but Dark Phoenix wins rather easily. As the embodiment ofthe Phoenix Force she has almost no equal. The only time she has been vulnerable is when Jean has struggled to keep the power at bay. You are wrong on this point. As dark Phoenix she was again as stated only vulnerable when Jean is struggling for control. no where does it say that is happening so consider her to be at full power which means a stomp for the entity

#24 sirmethos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 04:58 PM

Sorry but Dark Phoenix wins rather easily. As the embodiment ofthe Phoenix Force she has almost no equal. The only time she has been vulnerable is when Jean has struggled to keep the power at bay. You are wrong on this point. As dark Phoenix she was again as stated only vulnerable when Jean is struggling for control. no where does it say that is happening so consider her to be at full power which means a stomp for the entity


It's remarkable how people can be quite knowledgeable about the comics, and yet so ignorant.

I'll try to explain it so it's easy to understand.

The Dark Phoenix's physical body, was created by the Phoenix Force as an identical copy of Jean Grey's body.

The Dark Phoenix's mind contained Jean Grey's memories, copied from Jean Grey's mind.

Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix, she never has been.



From the point where Jean Grey saved the X-men, and nearly died in the process, the person that the X-men thought was Jean Grey, was in fact, the Phoenix Force in a physical body.

The Phoenix Force, in its (relatively)newly created body, eventually went mad and became the Dark Phoenix. There has never been any "struggle for control" from Jean Grey, because at the time the Dark Phoenix was active, Jean Grey was comatose in a cocoon under-water. The personality that was struggling for control is an aspect of the Phoenix Force.


Again:

1. The physical body of the Dark Phoenix is purely human/mortal.

2. Dark Phoenix, limited by her physical body, does not have FTL reflexes, nor is she capable of moving FTL.

3. Dark Phoenix, due to the limitations of her physical body, does not have access to the full power of the Phoenix Force(though even a fraction of that power is still ridiculously powerful).


I completely agree with you, that if Dark Phoenix actually uses her powers to attack the team, then the team is almost instantly annihilated.

However, Dark Phoenix, just like 99% of all Reality Warpers, has the weakness of purely human reflexes, durability, and speed.

Thus, the team(of which 4 of them are FTL) are more than capable, of hitting the Dark Phoenix, before her powers actually come into play. Aka. Dark Phoenix go *splat* and the Phoenix Force is released from its physical body, and the Dark Phoenix has ceased to exist.

#25 comic_book_fan

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 06:12 PM

It's remarkable how people can be quite knowledgeable about the comics, and yet so ignorant.

I'll try to explain it so it's easy to understand.

The Dark Phoenix's physical body, was created by the Phoenix Force as an identical copy of Jean Grey's body.

The Dark Phoenix's mind contained Jean Grey's memories, copied from Jean Grey's mind.

Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix, she never has been.



From the point where Jean Grey saved the X-men, and nearly died in the process, the person that the X-men thought was Jean Grey, was in fact, the Phoenix Force in a physical body.

The Phoenix Force, in its (relatively)newly created body, eventually went mad and became the Dark Phoenix. There has never been any "struggle for control" from Jean Grey, because at the time the Dark Phoenix was active, Jean Grey was comatose in a cocoon under-water. The personality that was struggling for control is an aspect of the Phoenix Force.


Again:

1. The physical body of the Dark Phoenix is purely human/mortal.

2. Dark Phoenix, limited by her physical body, does not have FTL reflexes, nor is she capable of moving FTL.

3. Dark Phoenix, due to the limitations of her physical body, does not have access to the full power of the Phoenix Force(though even a fraction of that power is still ridiculously powerful).


I completely agree with you, that if Dark Phoenix actually uses her powers to attack the team, then the team is almost instantly annihilated.

However, Dark Phoenix, just like 99% of all Reality Warpers, has the weakness of purely human reflexes, durability, and speed.

Thus, the team(of which 4 of them are FTL) are more than capable, of hitting the Dark Phoenix, before her powers actually come into play. Aka. Dark Phoenix go *splat* and the Phoenix Force is released from its physical body, and the Dark Phoenix has ceased to exist.

1.if she had human durability then when firelord hit her one time she would have been dead but it did not even harm her.
2.all hearlds of galactus are hudreds of times faster then light that warp bubble is called hyperspace it is where all things that go that fast travel.
3. no she does not fight at those speeds but neither does any of her opponets superboy prime threatened to but he has never gone that fast only the flash has broke the light speed in dc thats how you enter the speed force if any superman or superman like chericter ever broke lightspeed he would have entered the speed force.
4. she has also traveld through space and has flown through stars also something a human body can't do.
5. when racheal had the phoenix powers wolverine cut right through her head onley for the wounds to close up instantly.
6.in x-men 105 the shiar are chaseing her in as fast as they can without going into hyperspace the (the speed of light) and she leavs them sitting.

#26 sirmethos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 06:54 PM

1.if she had human durability then when firelord hit her one time she would have been dead but it did not even harm her.
2.all hearlds of galactus are hudreds of times faster then light that warp bubble is called hyperspace it is where all things that go that fast travel.
3. no she does not fight at those speeds but neither does any of her opponets superboy prime threatened to but he has never gone that fast only the flash has broke the light speed in dc thats how you enter the speed force if any superman or superman like chericter ever broke lightspeed he would have entered the speed force.
4. she has also traveld through space and has flown through stars also something a human body can't do.
5. when racheal had the phoenix powers wolverine cut right through her head onley for the wounds to close up instantly.
6.in x-men 105 the shiar are chaseing her in as fast as they can without going into hyperspace the (the speed of light) and she leavs them sitting.


1. Which part of "she uses her Telekinesis to protect herself", is hard to understand?

2. All the Heralds of Galactus jump into Hyperspace when they pass the speed of light. Other characters, like Blue Marvel, Sentry, Thor, etc. are fully capable of moving faster than light without jumping into Hyperspace. Hence, the former are incapable of fighting at faster than light speeds, while the latter are very much capable of doing so.

3. No, moving faster than light is not how you enter the Speed Force. Superboy, Superman, Superboy-Prime, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, etc. etc. etc. ad nausem, regularly move at speeds faster than light. Superboy-Prime, Black Adam and Ultraman have even been shown to fight at those speeds(Sentry is capable of it as well, but I can't remember seeing him fighting at those speeds, though I might be mistaken about that one).

4. Which part of "she uses her Telekinesis to protect herself", is hard to understand?

5. Rachel =/= Dark Phoenix. They are two different characters, with completely different feats, Rachel's feats are useless for the purpose of this fight.

6. I'll check the issue and see for myself :)

#27 comic_book_fan

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 07:17 PM

1. Which part of "she uses her Telekinesis to protect herself", is hard to understand?

2. All the Heralds of Galactus jump into Hyperspace when they pass the speed of light. Other characters, like Blue Marvel, Sentry, Thor, etc. are fully capable of moving faster than light without jumping into Hyperspace. Hence, the former are incapable of fighting at faster than light speeds, while the latter are very much capable of doing so.

3. No, moving faster than light is not how you enter the Speed Force. Superboy, Superman, Superboy-Prime, Black Adam, Captain Marvel, etc. etc. etc. ad nausem, regularly move at speeds faster than light. Superboy-Prime, Black Adam and Ultraman have even been shown to fight at those speeds(Sentry is capable of it as well, but I can't remember seeing him fighting at those speeds, though I might be mistaken about that one).

4. Which part of "she uses her Telekinesis to protect herself", is hard to understand?

5. Rachel =/= Dark Phoenix. They are two different characters, with completely different feats, Rachel's feats are useless for the purpose of this fight.

6. I'll check the issue and see for myself :)

lets see some scans that show them fighting at light speed .

#28 sirmethos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 08:33 PM

lets see some scans that show them fighting at light speed .


Since I don't want to spam the thread with scans, here are a few scans of FTL combat.

Captain Marvel blitzing Bizarro, Solomon Grundy, Parasite(with Superman's powers), and Metallo.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image


Then we have Captain Marvel(again) catching up to Flash who has lost control of himself.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image


Wonder Woman showing FTL reflexes

Posted Image


Captain Marvel feats are because it has been directly stated that Black Adam has the exact same powers as Captain Marvel, hence he can do the same things. Black Adam has also gotten a power-up(through gaining Isis' powers) that makes him more powerful. And because he has been stated as being equal to Superman. Ultraman has the exact same powers as Superman, and Superboy-Prime has all of Superman's powers, only more powerful.


I'm still waiting for scans that shows Dark Phoenix having FTL reflexes, which she would need in order to react to(and survive) a Blitz attack from Superboy-Prime, Black Adam and Ultraman(and possibly Sentry).

#29 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 08:56 PM

Let's go with sirmethos on saying that dark Phoenix is human physically. That doesn't prevent her from blocking any attack done to her physically and otherwise.

She can stop a sun exploding from harming her and that blast was the speed of light. She will rearrange their molecules. She Sid it even in the cartoon and the comic she took out everyone that she came across her.

By the way are you implying that wonder woman can beat dark Phoenix?

#30 sirmethos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:02 PM

Let's go with sirmethos on saying that dark Phoenix is human physically. That doesn't prevent her from blocking any attack done to her physically and otherwise.

She can stop a sun exploding from harming her and that blast was the speed of light. She will rearrange their molecules. She Sid it even in the cartoon and the comic she took out everyone that she came across her.

By the way are you implying that wonder woman can beat dark Phoenix?


I'm not implying anything, I've flat out said it.

As for stopping an exploding sun from damaging her.

"Which part of "she uses her Telekinesis to protect herself", is hard to understand?"


When she is in space, she has her telekinetic shield around her to protect her from the vacuum.


You're absolutely correct in saying that she could block their attacks. but only if she can actually react FTL. Something that people still haven't given any evidence for.


That said, people have about 42 hours left, to provide scans(or the issues of specific comics) that shows Dark Phoenix being able to move and react faster than light, before I consider the point conceded.

As I said earlier, if she actually can do it, then it shouldn't be hard to find proof of it.

#31 comic_book_fan

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:13 PM

Since I don't want to spam the thread with scans, here are a few scans of FTL combat.

Captain Marvel blitzing Bizarro, Solomon Grundy, Parasite(with Superman's powers), and Metallo.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image


Then we have Captain Marvel(again) catching up to Flash who has lost control of himself.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image


Wonder Woman showing FTL reflexes

Posted Image


Captain Marvel feats are because it has been directly stated that Black Adam has the exact same powers as Captain Marvel, hence he can do the same things. Black Adam has also gotten a power-up(through gaining Isis' powers) that makes him more powerful. And because he has been stated as being equal to Superman. Ultraman has the exact same powers as Superman, and Superboy-Prime has all of Superman's powers, only more powerful.


I'm still waiting for scans that shows Dark Phoenix having FTL reflexes, which she would need in order to react to(and survive) a Blitz attack from Superboy-Prime, Black Adam and Ultraman(and possibly Sentry).

you said scan or issue number i already gave you an issue number i don't have a scanner.

#32 bigballerju

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:20 PM

Are we talking the same Dark Phoenix that did this who Methos seems to be downplaying her abilities and killed billions?

Posted Image

Are we going to ignore the fact she could teleport Superboy-Prime and Ultraman into a Red Sun easily? Are we going to ignore the rest of her powers? Thank you for showing those scans of FTL however most of the villains in this match usual don't result to FTL from the start of the fight which Methos seems to forget also and will first go to brawl which most of them have showed to be that stupid to do. Also between Dark Phoenix being able to either teleport them wherever she wants (Darkseid would be the only one who that wouldn't work on) and her energy absorption being past Superboy-Prime she is plenty capable of winning this match very easily as well in all sort of ways.

#33 Bladephyre

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:31 PM

Are we talking the same Dark Phoenix that did this who Methos seems to be downplaying her abilities and killed billions?
Are we going to ignore the fact she could teleport Superboy-Prime and Ultraman into a Red Sun easily? Are we going to ignore the rest of her powers? Thank you for showing those scans of FTL however most of the villains in this match usual don't result to FTL from the start of the fight which Methos seems to forget also and will first go to brawl which most of them have showed to be that stupid to do. Also between Dark Phoenix being able to either teleport them wherever she wants (Darkseid would be the only one who that wouldn't work on) and her energy absorption being past Superboy-Prime she is plenty capable of winning this match very easily as well in all sort of ways.


That is a travel speed, not a reaction speed.
She can travel much faster than light, everyone knows that. That does not show her reactions at all, just moving from point A to point B.

#34 sirmethos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:38 PM

Are we talking the same Dark Phoenix that did this who Methos seems to be downplaying her abilities and killed billions?


Are we going to ignore the fact she could teleport Superboy-Prime and Ultraman into a Red Sun easily? Are we going to ignore the rest of her powers? Thank you for showing those scans of FTL however most of the villains in this match usual don't result to FTL from the start of the fight which Methos seems to forget also and will first go to brawl which most of them have showed to be that stupid to do. Also between Dark Phoenix being able to either teleport them wherever she wants (Darkseid would be the only one who that wouldn't work on) and her energy absorption being past Superboy-Prime she is plenty capable of winning this match very easily as well in all sort of ways.


I'm not downplaying her abilities.

In fact, I've said directly, that if she actually uses her powers, she could annihilate the entire team almost instantly(with the exception of Darkseid).

The point is, that they can hit her before she ever has a chance to use her powers. She has no defense against that, since she can't react FTL, or even close to it.


Edit: It's highly amusing, that there is a bunch of people arguing for the side of Dark Phoenix, and they all show a complete lack of understanding for what is pretty much the core concept of the character.

#35 bigballerju

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:48 PM

I'm not downplaying her abilities.

In fact, I've said directly, that if she actually uses her powers, she could annihilate the entire team almost instantly(with the exception of Darkseid).

The point is, that they can hit her before she ever has a chance to use her powers. She has no defense against that, since she can't react FTL, or even close to it.


Okay I justed wanted to make sure people realize either side could win the match depending on what there first move is. However most of Team Supermen in comics have shown at first to throw a punch rather then use there head and go about beating there opponent the correct way. The only person who would use there intellect and actually think of taking out Dark Phoenix the smart way is Darkseid.

If there smart to start off at FTL speeds from the start of the fight then yes they could win that way however most of them like Black Adam, Prime, and Sentry may not think to do that at first. That definitely goes for Prime and Sentry with there egos.

#36 comic_book_fan

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:56 PM

how many times have you seen darkphoenix by herself without her defences up this is a fight she will be fighting if she fights everyone dies and did you ever see what i was talking about.

#37 sirmethos

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 09:58 PM

Okay I justed wanted to make sure people realize either side could win the match depending on what there first move is. However most of Team Supermen in comics have shown at first to throw a punch rather then use there head and go about beating there opponent the correct way. The only person who would use there intellect and actually think of taking out Dark Phoenix the smart way is Darkseid.

If there smart to start off at FTL speeds from the start of the fight then yes they could win that way however most of them like Black Adam, Prime, and Sentry may not think to do that at first. That definitely goes for Prime and Sentry with there egos.


The question asked in the OP, is "Can this team beat Dark Phoenix?".

The answer to that question is, Yes they can.


I've never said that there are no scenario's where Dark Phoenix would win. The only thing I've said, the entire time, is "Yes, they can beat Dark Phoenix". Which is simply a fact, due to her having normal human reflexes, and 4 of them are capable of FTL movement/combat.

#38 bigballerju

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Posted 22 January 2012 - 10:03 PM

Okay then yes the Team can win depending on how they attack Dark Phoenix from the start.

#39 shellsbut

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 02:43 AM

It's remarkable how people can be quite knowledgeable about the comics, and yet so ignorant.

I'll try to explain it so it's easy to understand.

The Dark Phoenix's physical body, was created by the Phoenix Force as an identical copy of Jean Grey's body.

The Dark Phoenix's mind contained Jean Grey's memories, copied from Jean Grey's mind.

Jean Grey is not the Dark Phoenix, she never has been.



From the point where Jean Grey saved the X-men, and nearly died in the process, the person that the X-men thought was Jean Grey, was in fact, the Phoenix Force in a physical body.

The Phoenix Force, in its (relatively)newly created body, eventually went mad and became the Dark Phoenix. There has never been any "struggle for control" from Jean Grey, because at the time the Dark Phoenix was active, Jean Grey was comatose in a cocoon under-water. The personality that was struggling for control is an aspect of the Phoenix Force.


Again:

1. The physical body of the Dark Phoenix is purely human/mortal.

2. Dark Phoenix, limited by her physical body, does not have FTL reflexes, nor is she capable of moving FTL.

3. Dark Phoenix, due to the limitations of her physical body, does not have access to the full power of the Phoenix Force(though even a fraction of that power is still ridiculously powerful).


I completely agree with you, that if Dark Phoenix actually uses her powers to attack the team, then the team is almost instantly annihilated.

However, Dark Phoenix, just like 99% of all Reality Warpers, has the weakness of purely human reflexes, durability, and speed.

Thus, the team(of which 4 of them are FTL) are more than capable, of hitting the Dark Phoenix, before her powers actually come into play. Aka. Dark Phoenix go *splat* and the Phoenix Force is released from its physical body, and the Dark Phoenix has ceased to exist.



You dont know what Dark Phoenix is then. The vessel of Jean Grey is just that a vessel that can die and be rebon infinite times. Dark Phoenix is is the powqer not Jean Grey. You still think of her as the power like i said she is a vessel and only when Jean struggles with restraining that power is she vulnerable (her not the entity) It has already brought her back to life numerous times. she stomps the team in power abilities speed and all else due to the fact it is the Phoenix Force entity. GEt over the Oh its JEan Grey and she is only human. Jean Grey is not even part of the equation. Sorry but powered buy the uncontroled Phoenix Force she is able to move faster then anyone on the list.

#40 thanosisawesome

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Posted 23 January 2012 - 06:36 AM

The question asked in the OP, is "Can this team beat Dark Phoenix?".

The answer to that question is, Yes they can.


I've never said that there are no scenario's where Dark Phoenix would win. The only thing I've said, the entire time, is "Yes, they can beat Dark Phoenix". Which is simply a fact, due to her having normal human reflexes, and 4 of them are capable of FTL movement/combat.


Do you think Darkseid could solo?




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