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Vegito Vs. Silver Surfer


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#1 granobulax

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 05:52 PM

Now, before everyone starts yelling, "Silver Surfer turns him into a rock." or something like that, remember that Buu turned Vegito into a Jaw Breaker and Vegito retained all of his power. This kind of makes Silver Surfers transmutation powers mute.

So, who wins this battle? Vegito can go up to SS2 if he needs to and Silver Surfer can call upon 2% of Galactus' powers if he needs to.

#2 Marvel Man

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:06 PM

What if Surfer turns him into a puddle of water, a gas, or something else without solid form?

How will he come back from that?

#3 granobulax

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:22 PM

Who knows? Perhaps that would work, or perhaps Vegito condenses the gas into a liquid form. That's all speculation on what would happen in that situation, but I think you're side stepping what I'm trying to say here. This is a legitimate match where a character has a chance against transmutation. Now, lets say that Surfer turns him into a rock and gets pummeled for a bit, do you think he'd chance turning him into something else?

Lets say he's turned into a gas, Vegito would still retain his powers regardless. Then, he could fly into the lungs of Silver Surfer and expand (Gasses can do that ya know :) ) Surfer should be smart enough to know the risks associated with transmuting him into other things.

So, this will basically be a fight where Silver Surfer doesn't have his cheap auto-win via power cosmic. Now, who wins?

#4 Skirmisher

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Posted 18 September 2009 - 09:38 PM

What if Surfer turns him into a puddle of water, a gas, or something else without solid form?

How will he come back from that?

Then that Puddle of Water or Puff of Gas, or whatever else would then proceed to fight SS, at full capability. You really think that a small ball made of hard gum would be able to actually deal the kind of damage that Vegito was doing to Buu? Not only that but even a Liquid or a Gas if sufficiently compressed would be able to take solid form. Besides, I have never seen Transmutation to this level Ever used, I have seen instances of SS Giving life energy first to an inanimate object and then taking it away effectively turning his it to stone, but nothing greater. Prove first that SS can turn 100% of a person into a completely different substance without first having Transmuted the substance into a person in the first place.

Aside from that it would be quite comical to see a ball of smoke or flying water beat the crap out of the SS.

#5 TheRandomBandit

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:13 PM

What if Silver Surfer creates a black hole? How will Vegito survive that?

#6 granobulax

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 02:14 PM

He should still have instant transmission. He simply teleports out of it.

#7 MarvelFan15

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:22 PM

To be fair, the Power Cosmic works differently from the magic used in DBZ. If Surfer wants him dead, he'll be dead.

Not only that, if he turned him into a ball of gas and that gas condensed, then he'd just turn him into gas again, and again, and again, and again...Well, you get the idea. Also, Surfer's ability to increase his strength and durability to virtually infinite amounts means...Vegito isn't hurting this guy much. Especially in gas form.

Scans coming soon...gotta let my computer load... :) I hate this PC...

#8 MarvelFan15

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 03:39 PM

Aside from that it would be quite comical to see a ball of smoke or flying water beat the crap out of the SS.


Easily Withstands Planet Busting attacks

---

Here, he gets cut to pieces, and heals:

http://img530.images...98902418te5.jpg

http://img53.imagesh...98902419zi3.jpg

http://img530.images...98902420ty6.jpg

http://img183.images...98902422uk4.jpg

---

Instant Transmission won't work He can calculate the trajectory of things in mid teleportation.

---

Here are some transmutation feats:

Energy To Matter conversion

As you mentioned, Skirmisher, Quasimodo.

http://img524.images...rsurfer1wr4.jpg

Quasimodo: Part 2

And here He Can turn things into Gold
--

More scans will come later, if need be.
My computer is awfully slow...

I hope my formatting isn't too confusing... :)

#9 Skirmisher

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 08:17 PM

Turning "An entire world to a smoldering cinder" would only take about less than a dozen Petatons of explosive energy. As I have figured in the Kid Buu vs World War Hulk fight, Buu who was weaker than a Non-SSJ Vegito could drop a few hundred billion petatons of force... And we also have the confirmed energy jump between non-ssj and ssj1 to be an increase of 50x in power. Meaning that SSJ1 Vegito would be able to drop several trillions of Petatons of force.

Your pics of him healing himself seem to be partially broken, (I was only able to see the second and forth one) In the last one, it appeared as if that "Motherboard 49.7 -- Central Concept Unit" was the one to heal him. Surfer appeared to trick it into restoring him to power.

Instant Transmission will work, because Goku doesn't have to move in any direction previous to using IT for it to work. He may be hit with one attack before switching up with randomized pasterns, or he may already use this tactic due to facing opponents with the skill and speed to anticipate where he appears like the Surfer did.

I saw nothing in your first Energy to Matter scan to show any sort of Energy to Matter conversion. Your first Quasimodo scan was broken, leading me to "http://as you mentioned, skirmisher, turns quasimodo into stone/"... The second one is what I mentioned, though there is the fact that he Gave Quasimodo life, and then took it away. And the golden Ashtray, well, it was a uniform inanimate object, firstly it could not dodge, secondly it did not have any sort of Life energy with which to resist, and thirdly if it were to have had any life energy then it probably wouldn't have had the control over it that would be required for it to resist. The moment that you can show him using Transmutation on a living breathing entity in Combat and pulling it off successfully I will concede that it is a valid tactic of the Surfers.

#10 Marvel Man

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 11:02 PM

A DBZ/Marvel fight?

If it wasn't the Surfer, I would definetly leave. I've had my fill of these things. Still, I'll continue.

1. I've never seen any DBZer show anything which would give it a shot of teleporting out of Black Hole. Well here, Surfer actually fights inside one.

http://img64.imagesh...ourer217yj3.jpg

2. I'll look for a different transmutation feat. But here's a fixed version of the first Quasitransmutation scan.
http://img524.images...rsurfer1wr4.jpg

#11 Marvel Man

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 11:23 PM

Grano, I'm not trying to side step anything, I'm merely stating that if both fighters had the ability/motive, then Surfer could simply transmutate Vegito into some type of gas. Maybe something which wasn't condenseable. Besides, Surfer doesn't have to breath.

Still, I see what you're trying to do, so I'll ignore transmutation.

It makes little difference though, I still feel like Surfer's too much. Just look at speed.
Vegito has instant transmission, but he still needs to think. It's just a teleportation.

Well Surfer can match that, and more. Here he shows nano-second reaction time:
http://img258.images...sents001fk4.jpg

And that's after being stranded on Earth by Galactus, so his speed could actually be higher.

#12 treacherous

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 11:40 PM

What the hell did I just watch!!? Did I just watch a jawbreaker beat up Majin Buu? See, this is why I stopped watching Dragon Ball.

Regardless, Marvel Man is right about Surfer. He draws his energy from the infinite cosmos. If he wants to Hulk out on you, that's trouble. Most of the time, he holds back.

#13 Marvel Man

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 11:42 PM

If you're impressed by an ashtray, then wait till you see this. Here he rebuilds an entire city through sheer transmutation!

http://img407.images...lavers74sc7.jpg

#14 Marvel Man

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Posted 19 September 2009 - 11:51 PM

Anyone here doubt Surfer's speed?

Proven FTL right here. There's actual people recording his speed.

http://img253.images...98000606ed7.jpg

Still not convinced? He actually pulls off a Superman and goes back in time through sheer speed.

http://img253.images...98000607wt9.jpg

#15 Skirmisher

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 12:25 AM

A DBZ/Marvel fight?

If it wasn't the Surfer, I would definetly leave. I've had my fill of these things. Still, I'll continue.

1. I've never seen any DBZer show anything which would give it a shot of teleporting out of Black Hole. Well here, Surfer actually fights inside one.

http://img64.imagesh...ourer217yj3.jpg

2. I'll look for a different transmutation feat. But here's a fixed version of the first Quasitransmutation scan.
http://img524.images...rsurfer1wr4.jpg

The Surfer fights within a Black Hole, yet as implied he wouldn't have been able to escape it without hitching a ride from the guy he was fighting.

Again, He gave Quasi life and then took it away. That's not transmutation.


Grano, I'm not trying to side step anything, I'm merely stating that if both fighters had the ability/motive, then Surfer could simply transmutate Vegito into some type of gas. Maybe something which wasn't condenseable. Besides, Surfer doesn't have to breath.

Still, I see what you're trying to do, so I'll ignore transmutation.

It makes little difference though, I still feel like Surfer's too much. Just look at speed.
Vegito has instant transmission, but he still needs to think. It's just a teleportation.

Well Surfer can match that, and more. Here he shows nano-second reaction time:
http://img258.images...sents001fk4.jpg

And that's after being stranded on Earth by Galactus, so his speed could actually be higher.

This is a gray area for DBZ, the show has never stated their speeds in any real detail. The only argument here is based on a progression of increasing speeds shown throughout the show. The only way that stands up without overuse of ABC logic is through actually watching the show... I can sum some of it up... First achieved speed feat was young Goku dodging lighting. This was when he fought with Piccolo Daimaƍ. Afterwords he got faster to fight with normal Piccolo... Then both Piccolo and Goku got blitzed by Raditz. Then they trained until they could keep up with people that could blitz Raditz. Then they trained again until they could blitz the people that could blitz Raditz... Then there's alot of training to defeat the guy who could blitz the guy who could blitz... etc. etc. etc. If a blitz is considered at minimum a doubling of speed, then factoring in all the times they've trained to blitz fighters who could previously blitz them would put their times well into the Nanosecond range. Is this provable? No, it's DBZ what do you expect?!


What the hell did I just watch!!? Did I just watch a jawbreaker beat up Majin Buu? See, this is why I stopped watching Dragon Ball.

Regardless, Marvel Man is right about Surfer. He draws his energy from the infinite cosmos. If he wants to Hulk out on you, that's trouble. Most of the time, he holds back.

He draws Cosmic Energy, which can increase his strength, yet I have not seen figures to suggest his Draw Rate, or his Maximum Potential (Which I have seen (as he almost exploded)). So he would have to draw extremely quick to be able to overcome Vegito, and Vegito has Two additional Forms of Super to go to which offer a huge increase in Strength, Speed, etc... I see it like this, Vegito is beating SS and having fun. Then Surfer starts to even the fight out as he draws energy. Vegito not the fool, senses what's going on and skips SSJ1 going straight to SSJ2 and manhandles SS into oblivion.


If you're impressed by an ashtray, then wait till you see this. Here he rebuilds an entire city through sheer transmutation!

http://img407.images...lavers74sc7.jpg

He rebuilds the city, but I didn't see any sort of Transmutation. It would be like if I found a kicked over Lego city and decided to put the pieces back together. It's not as if he turned the very air and dirt into Skyscrapers and paved streets.

#16 granobulax

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 12:31 AM

@ Marvel Man- Finally, an arguement without the use of transmutation. I like it. Very good scans. I'm very glad you saw what I was trying to do, and that was take away the cheap "Auto win" via transmutation.

While I respect your opinion, I think this will be a closer fight than you think. I can honestly see this as a case where both combatants duke it out, Surfer realizing his transmutation won't work, and Vegito realizing that he cannot harm Surfer and thus the two end up great friends and sparring partners.

#17 MarvelFan15

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 01:20 AM

Turning "An entire world to a smoldering cinder" would only take about less than a dozen Petatons of explosive energy. As I have figured in the Kid Buu vs World War Hulk fight, Buu who was weaker than a Non-SSJ Vegito could drop a few hundred billion petatons of force... And we also have the confirmed energy jump between non-ssj and ssj1 to be an increase of 50x in power. Meaning that SSJ1 Vegito would be able to drop several trillions of Petatons of force.


A description of a smoldering cinder is vague, considering that in the classic comics the writers tried to use a language as close to Shakespearian as possible (without the thees and thous).

Still, Surfer can increase his durability. That was him at normal durability, I believe. If he chose to increase it, then he could withstand several trillion petetons of force. Give or take.

Your pics of him healing himself seem to be partially broken, (I was only able to see the second and forth one) In the last one, it appeared as if that "Motherboard 49.7 -- Central Concept Unit" was the one to heal him. Surfer appeared to trick it into restoring him to power.


Broken? Really?

Dang, they worked for me. Still, they show that punching holes in surfer won't do the trick. At least right away.

Instant Transmission will work, because Goku doesn't have to move in any direction previous to using IT for it to work. He may be hit with one attack before switching up with randomized pasterns, or he may already use this tactic due to facing opponents with the skill and speed to anticipate where he appears like the Surfer did.


Surfer's cosmic awareness will tell him where Vegito is at all times. He'll be on him the moment he reappears.

I saw nothing in your first Energy to Matter scan to show any sort of Energy to Matter conversion. Your first Quasimodo scan was broken, leading me to "http://as you mentioned, skirmisher, turns quasimodo into stone/"... The second one is what I mentioned, though there is the fact that he Gave Quasimodo life, and then took it away. And the golden Ashtray, well, it was a uniform inanimate object, firstly it could not dodge, secondly it did not have any sort of Life energy with which to resist, and thirdly if it were to have had any life energy then it probably wouldn't have had the control over it that would be required for it to resist. The moment that you can show him using Transmutation on a living breathing entity in Combat and pulling it off successfully I will concede that it is a valid tactic of the Surfers.


Another broken scan? *sigh*

Sorry about that.

Well, basically a living body boils down to uniform inanimate objects called atoms. Atoms are atoms, they're all the same, they're just arranged differently in different things. Surfer has complete control over those, and wheather Vegito can resist...I have no idea.

Also, what's to stop Surfer from just siphoning off Vegito's chi force?

#18 Marvel Man

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 03:44 AM

The Surfer fights within a Black Hole, yet as implied he wouldn't have been able to escape it without hitching a ride from the guy he was fighting.

He's fighting Red Shift, another herald of Galactus.

Red Shift has 0.5% of Galactus's power cosmic. Surfer has 1%. Both are very capable of fighting in that hole, and both use power cosmic. Both can clearly escape the black hole.

That proves one clear way Surfer can win.

Theory #1: Open a Black Hole.

I guess Vegito could teleport away (even though I have my doubts he could pull that off), but Surfer doesn't have to go anywhere. He could just stay there, or open more black holes. Vegito would have to continue to teleport away, or actually fight (and die).

As for the reconstructed city, he clearly rebuilds it long after everything is destroyed. There's even several fires burning. If fire's burning something, then it's destroying it (sort of. You can't actually destroy things, so it's just burning it up). The fact that he recreated it all, even with fires, means that he either:

1. Transmutated things to fit his needs.
2. Put scattered smoke back together on a massive scale.

Both are pretty good feats.

For another transmutation feat (which I won't pursue as a means of victory, but still prove) here he creates an air cube. In space. Yep. In the vacuum of space.

http://img518.images...fer04316hm7.jpg

Here he runs out of cash, so he pays his bill with a napkin dispenser (transmutated into gold while in human form).

http://img525.images...99712916th6.jpg

And here, to impress this chick, he recreates a huge space armada out of the destroyed pieces of other ships.

http://img518.images...lavers77xr1.jpg

This next one's just kind of cool. Simply turns off every machine on Earth.

http://img519.images...07globalcr0.jpg
http://img260.images...08globalsa2.jpg

I'll post more if needed.

#19 Marvel Man

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 03:50 AM

Success! Found a scan of Surfer transmutating living beings.

Here Surfer has to help with a deadly virus. So, he picks out an individual, and transmutates anti-bodies inside him. So yes, he can affect, create, and change living things.

http://img519.images...fer03517hf2.jpg

#20 Skirmisher

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Posted 20 September 2009 - 03:53 AM

A description of a smoldering cinder is vague, considering that in the classic comics the writers tried to use a language as close to Shakespearian as possible (without the thees and thous).

Still, Surfer can increase his durability. That was him at normal durability, I believe. If he chose to increase it, then he could withstand several trillion petetons of force. Give or take.

Yet the burden of proof is on you. I have shown a value of power and backed it up with reasonable numbers, yet you have stated that he can take this force with no evidence...


Broken? Really?

Dang, they worked for me. Still, they show that punching holes in surfer won't do the trick. At least right away.

I went back and looked, for some reason they worked this time, maybe server issues. But still, people that regen are nothing new to the Z-Fighters, it just means that Vegito will see that he needs to completely get rid of the Surfer to win.


Surfer's cosmic awareness will tell him where Vegito is at all times. He'll be on him the moment he reappears.

Yet they don't use it for surprise that much at this time. Even Cell could tell where fighters went with IT, Goku only surprised him by making him loose concentration as Cell was surprised that Goku was pointing his Kamehameha at the earth and then, Bam! he was behind him. The fact is though is that it takes time to physically turn a body around to attack when it's auto in IT. I still contend that by this time the higher Z-fighters should be on the same level speed wise to that of the surfer. Can I prove it? Not really as it would all be fancalcs based on guesstimations...


Well, basically a living body boils down to uniform inanimate objects called atoms. Atoms are atoms, they're all the same, they're just arranged differently in different things. Surfer has complete control over those, and wheather Vegito can resist...I have no idea.

The thing though is that there is a philosophical difference between what we know of as "inanimate objects" and people. I'll just say that IMO the Surfer can't Transmute living beings because of their Life Force, Chi or Ki, now he can manipulate this this stuff but this leads into the next point.


Also, what's to stop Surfer from just siphoning off Vegito's chi force?

Due to the fact that in order use this force as a weapon they must master it and learn to control it to a very high degree. Normal people that do not actively use their life force do not have the control necessary to resist IMO. But with the degree of control that the Z-Fighters have displayed I would think that this wouldn't be an option for the Surfer.




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