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The Imperium of Man vs. Marvel Earth


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#81 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:52 PM

Last I checked Wanda wasn't that powerful. She said no more mutants, but yet there were still mutants. She didn't change the reality of the universe, just Earth. X-Man will not be able to wish people away as easily. magneto cannot manipulate all metals, he had a hard time with Astroid M and if he is current he doesn't have his old powers, he needs the machine that the High Evolutionary made him.

Thor won't do shit, and Franklin Richards doesn't even have any powers right? Didn't he burn them out? Unless he has them back, but how was he not able to kill Onslaught?


Too many people keep calling this comic mechanics, but that seniment grows tired. Just because we think they should have won or lost doesn't mean anything. Thats why we cannot use feats as concrete, but we can use more their track record to make better estimates

#82 sirmethos

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 07:49 PM

You guys are aware that by the same token of appealing to the writers someone could turn the same method on you?

Check it out. This set up was written by the WH40k writers, so therefore the IoM fleet does in fact kill all the Marvel superhumans because they are heretics, mutants and in some cases xenos. Being written from a Space Marine's perspective this entire set up will be a long drawn out affair (probably... I dunno at least 900+ pages) that'll end with the main character Space Marine either dying as he kills the last heretic (probably the false god Thor) or living on to fight more grimdark wars.

Or the "writers" (which everyone seems to be assumign are Marvel writers) decide that a fight between all of Marvel's characters and generic mooks from WH40K isnt' enough, so they write in Galactus fighting for the IoM forces, since if the IoM kills all of Earths' defenders Galactus can eat the remaning planet.

Appealing to the writers solves nothing, since anyone can appeal to the writers to make any outcome possible. Mary Jane fights Galactus? There's no contest right? What if the writers decide that Mary Jane's latent Asgardian powers activate when Galactus hits her with an energy blast and her love of Peter Parker transforms her into Trollaria, Goddess of the Eight Ways of Love? These are all equally absurd propositions, but they are all as equally absurd as appealing to the writers not making characters who are considered to be nigh-omnipotent solve all the setting's problems.

Seriously, I dont' really see what's wrong with going "Mmmh, these characters should be able to do this with their reality warping powers. Yet they don't. Maybe we are overestimating their power?"


The entire point, of making matches here, is that this is a place where the writers have no say in what the characters do.

Thus, we can simply look at which powers they are actually stated as having, and not at which powers they should have in order to stay within the limits of the plot, to make an interesting story.

Mister M, to use him as an example, has been directly stated by Marvel, as being nigh-omnipotent, or more precisely "practically omnipotent". In the comics, the writers keep him limited because having him rewrite the entire world to remove all crime/sickness/etc. would make for extremely boring stories and cut down on sales. On cbub, the writers of Marvel have no say in what the character do or don't do, thus in a match(unless otherwise specified by the match/setup creator), the characters have access to their stated powers and both Can and Will use their powers according to their personality and skills.


In this particular setup, Earth is under attack by an armada of ships intent on destroying the planet, while the heroes of Earth have 10 minutes of warning. Mister M, being a relatively peaceful character, would most likely not just 'think away' the fleet. Keeping his personality and skills in mind, it is much more likely that he would use his powers(same as pretty much all the other reality warping 'heroes') to Protect Earth, and make sure that it is not damaged. The Armada has absolutely nothing, that is powerful enough to overcome the power of Mister M(not to mention the other reality and probability manipulators), and actually damage earth.

This leaves the 'less powerful' heroes to actually fight the armada, and leave the Future Foundation, a gathering of the most brilliant minds on the planet, to think of a solution to the problem, either by creating some machine that can dispose of the armada, or by coming up with a way to send out a call for help to people like Silver Surfer, Quasar, Nova-Prime, etc.

Thor(just to use one of the people that Would be fighting the armada, as an example), is powerful enough to, if not take out the fleet entirely, at least damage large parts of the fleet. His Thermo Blast is powerful enough to damage even Ego The Living Planet, his Anti-Force Blast is powerful enough to kill(at least temporarily) Mangog, and his God Blast is powerful enough to damage even Galactus. Not to mention his ability to create storms, powerful enough to rip a planet apart. Then we have his abilities of Matter Manipulation and Electro-Magnetic Energy Manipulation, as well as Energy Absorption.

And this is just from one person. Granted, one of the more powerful, but still just 1 in thousands.

Bottom Line: The Armada doesn't stand a chance of destroying the planet, let alone escaping with their life. They have a far better chance with some of the more powerful character from 40k aboard the ships, but they're simply not powerful for the combined power of the Marvel Heroes(not to mention all the villains that are gonna be attacking the fleet, if the ships should by some miracle manage to damage the planet and make their intentions known to the planet at large.)

#83 the atom

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 08:09 PM

Thor has shown the capability of releasing energy attacks that have completely annihilated Planets. The Anti-Force and the Thermo Blast. As for Iron-Man... he's been equipped with Mini-nukes in the past, which would be lower level, correct? Not only that, he's been stated to be able to absorb energy from the local area... and convert it to billions of petawatts and fire it off in the form of an Omnibeam. That's easily nuclear level. Not to mention, current Iron Man is equipped with Anti-Matter bullets... nuff said.


B-....billions....do know what a 5 petawatt laser is capable of right? What it's effects are? I don't remember the last time Iron Man fired off a 230+PETATON explosion with any of his weapons. Not doubting you, but I've never heard of something like that happening.

Are you cluless? The Annihilation wave destroyed the Kree Shi,ar and Skrull empires and the Nova corps all of which are easily the equal of anything in WH40. It killed Herlads that could solo any faction in WH40 and the 2 Galactus level beings, Aegis and Tenenbrous ARE NEAR *vulgarity*ING UNIVERSAL level beings. Each of them could solo everything in WH40K at once with a wave of their hand.


And yet their weapons failed to demonstrate anything that so much as approaches nuclear level, let alone anything required to so much as tickle an escort. It's no exaggeration to say that a single frigate could slaughter the bulk of the annihilation wave without significantly damaging it's outer void shields.

#84 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 08:15 PM

The entire point, of making matches here, is that this is a place where the writers have no say in what the characters do.

Thus, we can simply look at which powers they are actually stated as having, and not at which powers they should have in order to stay within the limits of the plot, to make an interesting story.

Mister M, to use him as an example, has been directly stated by Marvel, as being nigh-omnipotent, or more precisely "practically omnipotent". In the comics, the writers keep him limited because having him rewrite the entire world to remove all crime/sickness/etc. would make for extremely boring stories and cut down on sales. On cbub, the writers of Marvel have no say in what the character do or don't do, thus in a match(unless otherwise specified by the match/setup creator), the characters have access to their stated powers and both Can and Will use their powers according to their personality and skills.


All the bolded parts are the ones I don't agree with. Like I said, I don't care what constraints the writers are working with (and what unfounded assumptions you seem to be putting into these constraints ie that stories with nigh-omnipotent people would be boring). I simply care what is seen within the setting itself. Mr. M, AFAIK, in the setting never shows anything that can be considered nigh-omnipotence. Yet the Marvel company says he is.

To me the answer is simple, it's not say:
"oh well he is nigh-omnipotent to he can do whatever but doesn't because of the writers",

It's:
"Well we have a canon statement that says he's nigh-omnipotent (from Marvel) but yet in the comics he doesn't do alot of things a nigh-omnipotent person should be able to, hence: he cannot do anything since he clearly has limits that are real and not simply the work of comic book writers."

Therefore, since we know Mr. M has limits and can't do anything he wants to, the idea that he alone can protect the planet needs some actual evidence beyond "He's almost omnipotent!" After all, let's say for the hell of an example that Mr. M could take all the fire from this IoM fleet by himself forever and not feel a thing. You would, I assume, then argue that since he's almost omnipotent he could duplicate this effect across the entire planet. I would ask you to prove such a thing with examples from the comics, because after all, he's almost omnipotent. He's not there yet. What if part of that "not there yet" includes the ability to shield everyone on the planet indefinately?

People always assume that someone who is "nigh omnipotent" will be able to do any task required. Why? What if the skills, power, reaction, intelligence, etc required to complete a task fall outside their power?

#85 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 08:47 PM

BTW, I just realized that this page seems to sum up sirmethos' idea on how you treat comics and events in them (the literary method) versus the one I use, suspension of disbelief.

#86 sirmethos

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 09:13 PM

BTW, I just realized that this page seems to sum up sirmethos' idea on how you treat comics and events in them (the literary method) versus the one I use, suspension of disbelief.


Actually, for the purpose of debates on cbub, I'm more in between those two.

You treat the characters themselves as if they were real. Since the writers that created the characters have also given them a specific set of Powers and Skills, and a specific Personality, we can use those things to figure out what the characters are actually capable of, and what they would do/how they would act, in a specific situation.

For actual events in the comics, you keep the above mentioned information in mind, anything that falls within the limits of that information, is treated as real. While the events that fall outside of the limits of that information(like Spider-Man lifting 50 tons), is discarded.

The creators of the characters could easily have not released the information about their specific capabilities, in which case we could simply treat all of it "as if it was real.", but in the case of most Marvel and DC comics, we have 2 sources of information. We have the Core information, i.e. lists of the Capabilities(powers, skills and personality) of each character. And we have the source of information that is built on that core. I simply stick with the core information.

On the other hand, you seem to completely ignore that Core information, and simply say that since they haven't actually Shown the capabilities, that their creators have given them, they obviously don't have them.


To use FPL as an example. Let's say that one of the vet's create a character with Ultimate level Telekinesis, Supreme Super-Speed, and Ultimate Electricity. The creator then writes a story featuring that character. If the character, during the events of that story, only show his/her Telekinesis and Super-Speed, but doesn't use his/her Electricity power. You would look at the story, and say that that character does not have electricity powers. While I would look at the Character, and say that the character DOES have Ultimate level Electricity.

It is exactly the same for the characters of various kinds of fiction. In this particular case, we DO have access to the list of powers and skills, their personality etc. and thus, I look at the actual character, and tell you what the capabilities of that character is. While, to use the FPL analogy, you seem to be completely ignoring the actual 'Character page'.

#87 xman4life

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 09:28 PM

Last I checked Wanda wasn't that powerful. She said no more mutants, but yet there were still mutants. She didn't change the reality of the universe, just Earth. X-Man will not be able to wish people away as easily. magneto cannot manipulate all metals, he had a hard time with Astroid M and if he is current he doesn't have his old powers, he needs the machine that the High Evolutionary made him.

Thor won't do shit, and Franklin Richards doesn't even have any powers right? Didn't he burn them out? Unless he has them back, but how was he not able to kill Onslaught?


Too many people keep calling this comic mechanics, but that seniment grows tired. Just because we think they should have won or lost doesn't mean anything. Thats why we cannot use feats as concrete, but we can use more their track record to make better estimates

Wanda erased the mutant gene from not just earth but every dimension and time line. It was mentioned in the comic

#88 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 09:53 PM

You would look at the story, and say that that character does not have electricity powers. While I would look at the Character, and say that the character DOES have Ultimate level Electricity.

It is exactly the same for the characters of various kinds of fiction. In this particular case, we DO have access to the list of powers and skills, their personality etc. and thus, I look at the actual character, and tell you what the capabilities of that character is. While, to use the FPL analogy, you seem to be completely ignoring the actual 'Character page'.


Actually no, I take both into account. Using your FPL example if the author (via Word of God as it is often called) says Electro-Mind Man has TK, electric control and super speed. Then I accept that. Having read a story with this Electro-Mind Man where he didn't use his electric powers I simply say: "Ok, we know (via Word of God) that he has lightning powers, yet he didn't use them here, why? Well, either those powers wouldn't help him solve the situation, they would be inapplicable in the situation, he didn't think to use them, they wouldn't work, they would make the situation worse, he just plain didn't feel like it," etc. Basically, simply because we know a character has an ability doesn't mean he should always use it, or that it always makes sense to use it, or that it is always available.

Or, I dunno, if I read Spiderman's stat page from Marvel and it said he could lift 50 tons, I accept that. But then if I read a comic where he struggles to lift 48 tons, I don't immediately toss out the stat info. I attempt to reconcile the two. "OK, maybe Spiderman can lift 50 tons on a good day, with some warm up before hand, or maybe that's the most he's ever lifted and so its his "peak" lifting capacity." That reconciles the two and solves a seemingly contradictory set of information all within the universe. Saying "Oh, the writer forgot to read the stats page/wanted to make some drama" doesn't.

Back to this Mr. M guy. The Marvel page (or whatever) says he's "nigh-omnipotent". The comics show him at an insane level of power, but can still be bested or defeated or whatever. So, to you in this scenario he should be able to deal with the IoM fleet/defend Earth indefinately.

Your reasoning for this seems to be "he's nigh-omnipotent so he should be able to."

My counter argument is "Mr. M is nigh-omnipotent. He's not all powerful, he's just powerful. What if, just maybe, the ability to deal with the IoM fleet/defende Earth indefinately lands just outside his abilities? In the comics he can't deal with some things or solve some problems. So clearly he can't do anything he wants. Just what if this IoM fleet is another problem he can't solve?"

Or a simpler way. If the scale of omnipotence is 0 to 10 (10 being omnipotent and 0 being normal, or no powers at all) Mr. M lands on a 7, 8 or 9. He's nigh-omnipotent, he's almost there. You therefore assume that the IoM fleet just happens to be something that he should be able to deal with just fine, that the power required to deal with them is included in that 7-9 scale. I posit the idea that maybe to deal with this IoM fleet requires a full 10. Or maybe just a 9.1, or a 9.000001.

Like I said, people seem to assume that a nigh-omnipotent, an almost all powerful character, should be able to deal with anything at all. By the simple fact that they are not omnipotent means that there are some problems that they will not be able to deal with. Therefore any claim that they will be able to deal with such problems have to be backed up with at least some credible evidence.

#89 sirmethos

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 11:56 PM

-snip-


Actually, my reasoning for the fact that he should easily be able to protect earth, comes from the fact that he(and others of that scale of power) has performed acts that are easily on that scale of power, and beyond. And the only reason that Mister M was eventually defeated, was that his powers was deactivated, turning him into a normal human being.

My reasoning: If someone can create a universe, change the laws of physics, or create new ones as it pleases him, then protecting a single planet, from an invading fleet, is a pretty easy thing to do, especially when working in concert with other people who have done similar things, or when he can draw power from someone that has been directly stated as having literally Unlimited energy(X-Man), hell, even if Franklin can't access his full powers himself(except sub-consciously), he still has the raw amount of energy that allowed him to create an entire universe, which Mister M would be able to draw on as well.

#90 Ruinus

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 12:48 PM

Except that none of those things imply the other. Simply because someone can, for instance, change g to be 2.3 m/s2 doesn't mean he can prevent bullets from hitting him. Nor does creating a universe imply anything on its own, since for all we know, creating a universe simply requires the person creating the initial singularity that then goes through a Big Bang all on it's own, maybe (in the Marvel setting universe creation isn't as hard or energy intensive as Cyclop's eye beams?). When did any of these characters do similar things? When did they, for instance, create barriers or shields against energy blasts or bullets? How big was their shield, etc?

#91 sirmethos

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:16 PM

Except that none of those things imply the other. Simply because someone can, for instance, change g to be 2.3 m/s2 doesn't mean he can prevent bullets from hitting him. Nor does creating a universe imply anything on its own, since for all we know, creating a universe simply requires the person creating the initial singularity that then goes through a Big Bang all on it's own, maybe (in the Marvel setting universe creation isn't as hard or energy intensive as Cyclop's eye beams?). When did any of these characters do similar things? When did they, for instance, create barriers or shields against energy blasts or bullets? How big was their shield, etc?


If someone can change the laws of physics, or create new ones as they wish, or affect the various forces of the universe, it would be relatively simple to remove the energy propelling a bullet, or reversing that energy, sending the bullet back to its point of origin.

As for instances of Reality Warpers creating shields. Franklin Richards blocked an energy blast from a Celestial. Mister M blocked energy blasts from both a Sentinel, and from Cyclops(as well as putting a person temporarily out of phase, so that a bullet passed straight through without harming him). Wiccan regularly created energy shields as one of the primary forms of defense.


I'll repeat(again). If you know their power(High-level reality warping/probability manipulation), and you actually know what reality warping is of course... and you know their level of power(nigh-unlimited), then there is no need for feats.

For someone that can nudge, change or completely remove the laws of physics and forces of nature, or create brand new ones as they want, with practically no upper limit. Create entire universes(fully functioning), high-level Cosmic Beings, and billions of individual life forms(the entire populations of hundreds of thousands of planets), and more. The simple task of protecting one single planet is just that. Simple.


You are assuming that an energy barrier would be necessary to protect earth from being damaged(or destroyed). How about putting it out of phase, temporarily moving it into a closed pocket dimension, or creating a brand new universe and transport the planet there, leaving an unpopulated copy behind until the danger has passed.


Imagination, it's a great thing.

#92 AVP vs The Terminator

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:18 PM

Wanda erased the mutant gene from not just earth but every dimension and time line. It was mentioned in the comic

Wait, you mean alternate realities and such? Then why are there still clear signs of mutant presence in future timelines (such as Marvel 2099 and MC2)?

#93 Ruinus

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:46 PM

As for instances of Reality Warpers creating shields. Franklin Richards blocked an energy blast from a Celestial. Mister M blocked energy blasts from both a Sentinel, and from Cyclops(as well as putting a person temporarily out of phase, so that a bullet passed straight through without harming him). Wiccan regularly created energy shields as one of the primary forms of defense.


A Sentinel and a Cyclops don't have the firepower even approaching a single gun on an IoM ship. That they can block those attacks doesn't mean they can block IoM fire.

When did Franklin Richards do such a thing? What were the circumstances? Was he utilizing powers he usually doesn't have? How strong are Wiccan's shields?

I'll repeat(again). If you know their power(High-level reality warping/probability manipulation), and you actually know what reality warping is of course... and you know their level of power(nigh-unlimited), then there is no need for feats.


Nope. Because they still don't reach full omnipotence, so by definition they cannot solve all problems. Hence, they do require some evidence to back up claims. Especially if they don't actually behave like almost omnipotent beings in the fiction they come from (ie, for example, you'd think they would have gone back and eliminted all crime, disease, war, famine, hunger, poverty, corruption, exploitation in all of human history-yet they haven't).

You are assuming that an energy barrier would be necessary to protect earth from being damaged(or destroyed). How about putting it out of phase, temporarily moving it into a closed pocket dimension, or creating a brand new universe and transport the planet there, leaving an unpopulated copy behind until the danger has passed.


Examples of this being done before please.

#94 Ruinus

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:48 PM

No, seriously, IF these people are almost all powerful and can do any of the things you claim, please give a reason as to why they have not eliminated all disease and illness.

After all, curing a single planet of such trivial things as the common cold and asthma should be within their realm of power right?

Yet they haven't done it.

EDIT: Obviously I mean a real in setting reason, not "the writer's dont want boring stories!"

#95 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 01:56 PM

Maybe Wiccan and the other reality warpers just don't want to play god?



#96 Ruinus

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:00 PM

They play God every time they use their powers. If they really had qualms about "playing God" they wouldn't use their powers at all.

#97 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:13 PM

Mh, interesting debate.

#98 sirmethos

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 02:46 PM

Examples of this being done before please.


It's starting to seem like you're being purposely obtuse.


"A Sentinel and a Cyclops don't have the firepower even approaching a single gun on an IoM ship. That they can block those attacks doesn't mean they can block IoM fire."

While it's true that neither a Sentinel, nor Cyclops, has anywhere near the same level of power behind their blasts as an IoM ship, we already know that Mister M(the one that blocked a blast from a sentinel and from cyclops), has practically unlimited energy. How do we know this? I believe the phrase you used was "word of god". With practically unlimited energy at his disposal, it's just a matter of pouring more energy into the shield, for the shield to have energy energy to block blasts from the IoM ship.

"When did Franklin Richards do such a thing? What were the circumstances? Was he utilizing powers he usually doesn't have?"

I don't remember the issue, but it was After he created the pocket universe where all the heroes were sent, and Before the heroes returned. It was(if I remember correctly) the same issue as the one where the Celestial attempted to destroy that same pocket universe, and was flooded with the full spectrum of human emotions. And, define 'usually'. He was utilizing powers that are part of his stated capabilities.


"Nope. Because they still don't reach full omnipotence, so by definition they cannot solve all problems. Hence, they do require some evidence to back up claims. Especially if they don't actually behave like almost omnipotent beings in the fiction they come from (ie, for example, you'd think they would have gone back and eliminted all crime, disease, war, famine, hunger, poverty, corruption, exploitation in all of human history-yet they haven't)."

The fact that they don't reach full omnipotence just means that they have limits. And by knowing their Powers and their Skills/Knowledge, we can easily figure out what those limits are. If we add in their Personality, we can also figure out what they are likely to do within those limits.


Mister M:

Powers: Nigh-Omnipotent Reality Warping.
Skills/Knowledge: Extensive knowledge in several fields, including Biology, Nuclear Physics, Technology(engineering), Genetics and more.

With just that information, we can easily tell some of his approximate limits(not counting sub-conscious acts, that seem to go beyond the limits of the character's knowledge). An example of sub-conscious acts going beyond the level of knowledge, would be Franklin Richards creating an entire universe, including high-level Cosmic Beings like Galactus(starving), Eternity, Death, etc.

We also have access(in Marvel's Heroes) to Telepaths who would be able to access the sub-conscious mind of the person, and bring out the 'part' of the person that did those acts.


Also, since when is there a specific way for "omnipotent beings to act"? We know that The Living Tribunal and The-One-Above-All are omnipotent in the Marvel Multiverse, yet neither of them have done any of the things you claim that omnipotent beings would do. Captain America has had nigh-omnipotence when he temporarily had a Cosmic Cube, and he did none of those things. When all the heroes had access to omnipotent power, for the purpose of being granted one wish, Captain America simply repaired his broken shield. Galactus is nigh-omnipotent, but generally acts through his far less powerful Heralds, The holders of the Reality Gem(Reed Richards and Tony Stark, among others), again did none of the things you claim would be how "omnipotent beings would act".

I'll repeat, on cbub we have the characters without the limits of the comics, i.e. just the character with his/her Powers, Skills, Experience and Personality.

Darkseid and Apocalypse have both, on several occasions, been shown as powerful telepaths, yet in the comics they don't use those powers when it doesn't fit in with the plot. On cbub, they DO have those powers. The same is the case here.

#99 Ruinus

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 03:13 PM

It's starting to seem like you're being purposely obtuse.

While it's true that neither a Sentinel, nor Cyclops, has anywhere near the same level of power behind their blasts as an IoM ship, we already know that Mister M(the one that blocked a blast from a sentinel and from cyclops), has practically unlimited energy. How do we know this? I believe the phrase you used was "word of god". With practically unlimited energy at his disposal, it's just a matter of pouring more energy into the shield, for the shield to have energy energy to block blasts from the IoM ship.

I don't remember the issue, but it was After he created the pocket universe where all the heroes were sent, and Before the heroes returned. It was(if I remember correctly) the same issue as the one where the Celestial attempted to destroy that same pocket universe, and was flooded with the full spectrum of human emotions. And, define 'usually'. He was utilizing powers that are part of his stated capabilities.


Yes, you'll forgive my stupidity when I ask you to back up your claims beyond vague "They are nighomnipotent!" claims.

Has Mr. M's shields/barriers/whatever ever been broken or destroyed? BTW, Mr. M (as far as I can tell by reading this isn't even around anymore. I'm assuming the set-up brought him back to life?

By that I mean that, AFAIK, Franklin Richards has latent reality warping abilities, he doesn't have access to his full extent of powers (a stupid notion, since if he was omnipotent later in the future he could just grant himself access to his powers at any point in time). So I'm asking if he was tapping into his latent normally hidden abilities.

The fact that they don't reach full omnipotence just means that they have limits. And by knowing their Powers and their Skills/Knowledge, we can easily figure out what those limits are. If we add in their Personality, we can also figure out what they are likely to do within those limits.



And one of these limits seems to be the inability to solve relatively trivial problems on Earth such as the ones I outlined above. So they can obviously do somethings but not others. Simply because they can do something fantastical (universe building, etc) doesn't mean they have to be able to do something mundane (preventing all crime).

Also, since when is there a specific way for "omnipotent beings to act"?


Simple: any of the characters that you claim are nigh omnipotent or similar (Mr. M, Franklin Richards, etc) are, AFAIK, good people. Mr. M had a penchant for going around fixing things, etc. You would think, then, since it's in their personality to help people and they supposedly can do anything, they would and could eliminate everday problems such as illness, hunger, poverty, etc. Yet they don't.

Therefore, they can't.

Darkseid and Apocalypse have both, on several occasions, been shown as powerful telepaths, yet in the comics they don't use those powers when it doesn't fit in with the plot. On cbub, they DO have those powers. The same is the case here.


And I'll repeat my position:

Darkseid, Apocalypse, etc, don't use their powers because, sometimes they powers fail. Sometimes their telepathy may not be usefull, or have worked on a person, or maybe they didn't think of it. I discout Out of Universe (plot reasons) entirely. When a character doesn't use an ability to his fullest extent there should never be the explanation of "oh, that would make the plot weak", you should look for an in universe explanation, ex: "That power wouldn't have worked in that situation".

#100 Bladephyre

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 03:30 PM

Yes, you'll forgive my stupidity when I ask you to back up your claims beyond vague "They are nighomnipotent!" claims.

Has Mr. M's shields/barriers/whatever ever been broken or destroyed? BTW, Mr. M (as far as I can tell by reading this isn't even around anymore. I'm assuming the set-up brought him back to life?

By that I mean that, AFAIK, Franklin Richards has latent reality warping abilities, he doesn't have access to his full extent of powers (a stupid notion, since if he was omnipotent later in the future he could just grant himself access to his powers at any point in time). So I'm asking if he was tapping into his latent normally hidden abilities.



And one of these limits seems to be the inability to solve relatively trivial problems on Earth such as the ones I outlined above. So they can obviously do somethings but not others. Simply because they can do something fantastical (universe building, etc) doesn't mean they have to be able to do something mundane (preventing all crime).



Simple: any of the characters that you claim are nigh omnipotent or similar (Mr. M, Franklin Richards, etc) are, AFAIK, good people. Mr. M had a penchant for going around fixing things, etc. You would think, then, since it's in their personality to help people and they supposedly can do anything, they would and could eliminate everday problems such as illness, hunger, poverty, etc. Yet they don't.

Therefore, they can't.



And I'll repeat my position:

Darkseid, Apocalypse, etc, don't use their powers because, sometimes they powers fail. Sometimes their telepathy may not be usefull, or have worked on a person, or maybe they didn't think of it. I discout Out of Universe (plot reasons) entirely. When a character doesn't use an ability to his fullest extent there should never be the explanation of "oh, that would make the plot weak", you should look for an in universe explanation, ex: "That power wouldn't have worked in that situation".


"They don't, therefore they can't." is a complete failure in logic.

Superman is a nice guy, who wants to help people. he can also move and act at crazy levels of super speed, by that logic there should never be crime in Metropolis. He could just speed through and take every weapon from every gang member, destroy all illegal drugs, and put every criminal in prison within an hour. He doesn't, why, because that would not be interesting. Comics have to sell issues, people have to write them to be entertaining. Therefore they can not have Superman just speed in overpower ever villain in the city. He could, but he doesn't.

Silver Surfer could just transmute every villain that does not also have transmuting powers into a statue of stone... but he doesn't.

Just because they do not do it, does not mean they can't.

Why hasn't some villain just shot Batman in the face by surprise when he is on patrol, talking to the cops, ect? That would be dull.




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