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The Imperium of Man vs. Marvel Earth


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#61 the atom

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Posted 09 November 2011 - 11:35 PM

Again with the feats.


Most other sites call this 'evidence'.

Mister M is nigh-omnipotent, he is a Reality Warper of the highest level.

Franklin Richards, another being who is nigh-omnipotent. a Reality Warper of the highest level.

Arcadia DeVille is a reality warper with unknown upper limits.

Willie Evans is a reality warper with powers rivaling those of Franklin Richards.

Gaia is a reality warper of the highest level, with no known limits.

Wiccan is a High level Probability Manipulator, again, with no known limits.

Hope is a power mimic with no known limits, who could easily copy the powers of all of the above.

Synch is a power mimic, his power allows him to copy the powers of another superhuman and gain mastery of the power he has copied.


Uh huh. Still not seeing any feats or links, or really anything other then claims about 'reality warping' as if it's some kind of be-all-end-all. All psykers are reality warping, so by your logic I could say that every astropath in the fleet could toss earth into the warp and call it a day (actually that could be an option of last resort if one ship decides to overload it's warp reactor). But then you'd ask for feats wouldn't you? :)

All you need to know, is their power and what that power actually is. They have the ability to change the laws of physics, or create brand new laws of physics, or even laws of logic. A good example of a high level reality warper, was Emperor Joker, who changed reality so that 2+2 = fish. Franklin Richards created an entire pocket universe to which he transported all of the heroes. etc. etc. etc.


Isn't Franklin Richards still a little kid or something? Somehow I doubt the effective reaction time of a 10 year old, especially when his parents and everybody around him is screaming at him to try accomplish something he likely wouldn't understand.

X-Man for example, a Telekinetic with nigh-unlimited energy, who could rip the armada apart. Thor, Iron Man(Uru-armor), Blue Marvel, etc. etc. who can go out and destroy ships left, right and center. While the Future Foundation think up a way to either dispose of the armada as a whole, or to call for help from people like Silver Surfer, Quasar and Nova-Prime, all of which could destroy the fleet.


What's the worst X-Man has ever taken down? Not so sure about the rest. You are aware of what kind of strength blowing up and bashing around Imperial warships calls for right? Neither Ironman, nor Thor have ever demonstrated abilities that hint at low level nuclear releases of energy, let alone the scale required to actually make a shipmaster regard their efforts with anything more then mild concern.

WTF LOL The Annihilation wave was a mass destuctive force rarely seen in comics with 2 characters on the bad side that were near on par Galactus, an amped up Annihilus and Thanos. THe Annihilation wave could wipe out everything in Warhammer 40k Tyranids/Imperium/Chaos amries/Tau/Eldar/Orcs/and Necrons. Nothing it WH40K would be able to stop it, not even The Emperor of Mankind or Chaos Gods.


The Annihilation wave was rather pathetic, and had the weapons to show for it. Even mass bombardment did little more then bust up buildings and cities. 40k bombardments regularly melt the crusts of planets in a matter of hours at most, and that's not even getting into their strategic weapons. And that's just the Imperium. You literally have no idea of how scary Necrons are do you?

#62 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:49 AM

What's the worst X-Man has ever taken down? Not so sure about the rest. You are aware of what kind of strength blowing up and bashing around Imperial warships calls for right? Neither Ironman, nor Thor have ever demonstrated abilities that hint at low level nuclear releases of energy, let alone the scale required to actually make a shipmaster regard their efforts with anything more then mild concern.

The rest of your post, the first regarding Psykers: No idea about them. As for Franklin Richard: It does depend, after all he did resurrect the heroes after Onslaught killed them, so who knows he might do something. And as for Shellsbut: He's clearly ignorant. You're correct in that Warhammer40K's forces wold utterly crush the likes of the Annihilation Wave itself except for the powerful beings associated with it. Ravenous, Annihilius, etc.

Now moving on to the Quoted Text... here is where you show a bit of ignorance.

Thor has shown the capability of releasing energy attacks that have completely annihilated Planets. The Anti-Force and the Thermo Blast. As for Iron-Man... he's been equipped with Mini-nukes in the past, which would be lower level, correct? Not only that, he's been stated to be able to absorb energy from the local area... and convert it to billions of petawatts and fire it off in the form of an Omnibeam. That's easily nuclear level. Not to mention, current Iron Man is equipped with Anti-Matter bullets... nuff said.

#63 sirmethos

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 10:05 AM

The rest of your post, the first regarding Psykers: No idea about them. As for Franklin Richard: It does depend, after all he did resurrect the heroes after Onslaught killed them, so who knows he might do something. And as for Shellsbut: He's clearly ignorant. You're correct in that Warhammer40K's forces wold utterly crush the likes of the Annihilation Wave itself except for the powerful beings associated with it. Ravenous, Annihilius, etc.

Now moving on to the Quoted Text... here is where you show a bit of ignorance.

Thor has shown the capability of releasing energy attacks that have completely annihilated Planets. The Anti-Force and the Thermo Blast. As for Iron-Man... he's been equipped with Mini-nukes in the past, which would be lower level, correct? Not only that, he's been stated to be able to absorb energy from the local area... and convert it to billions of petawatts and fire it off in the form of an Omnibeam. That's easily nuclear level. Not to mention, current Iron Man is equipped with Anti-Matter bullets... nuff said.


Actually, that was his Bleeding Edge armor, Marvel has upgraded him again with his new Uru-Armor.

#64 sultan

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 11:18 AM

Isn't Franklin Richards still a little kid or something? Somehow I doubt the effective reaction time of a 10 year old, especially when his parents and everybody around him is screaming at him to try accomplish something he likely wouldn't understand.

Heroes get 10 mins prep time. I reckon that's enough time for him to prevent it from happening in the first place.

#65 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 11:59 AM

From what I read, it was during the Fear Itself storyline?

It just states that its the Bleeding Edge armor having received a layer of Raw Uru on its armor.

#66 shellsbut

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:06 PM

Most other sites call this 'evidence'.



Uh huh. Still not seeing any feats or links, or really anything other then claims about 'reality warping' as if it's some kind of be-all-end-all. All psykers are reality warping, so by your logic I could say that every astropath in the fleet could toss earth into the warp and call it a day (actually that could be an option of last resort if one ship decides to overload it's warp reactor). But then you'd ask for feats wouldn't you? :)



Isn't Franklin Richards still a little kid or something? Somehow I doubt the effective reaction time of a 10 year old, especially when his parents and everybody around him is screaming at him to try accomplish something he likely wouldn't understand.



What's the worst X-Man has ever taken down? Not so sure about the rest. You are aware of what kind of strength blowing up and bashing around Imperial warships calls for right? Neither Ironman, nor Thor have ever demonstrated abilities that hint at low level nuclear releases of energy, let alone the scale required to actually make a shipmaster regard their efforts with anything more then mild concern.



The Annihilation wave was rather pathetic, and had the weapons to show for it. Even mass bombardment did little more then bust up buildings and cities. 40k bombardments regularly melt the crusts of planets in a matter of hours at most, and that's not even getting into their strategic weapons. And that's just the Imperium. You literally have no idea of how scary Necrons are do you?



Are you cluless? The Annihilation wave destroyed the Kree Shi,ar and Skrull empires and the Nova corps all of which are easily the equal of anything in WH40. It killed Herlads that could solo any faction in WH40 and the 2 Galactus level beings, Aegis and Tenenbrous ARE NEAR *vulgarity*ING UNIVERSAL level beings. Each of them could solo everything in WH40K at once with a wave of their hand.

#67 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:40 PM

As someone who doesn't read comics I have a question: if these characters are all capable of easily re-writing reality or destroying thousands of warships so fast that not a single one of those warships gets to fire off a shot at Earth, or can do any of the things being implied in this thread, how do these comics continue? You'd think that the so called "street level" characters, or even characters that work on a planteray level would have all been killed years ago by a single one of these dudes just saying "You know what? I don't want them here anymore."

#68 LoneWolf

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 04:56 PM

Well.. They all happen to be insane or mysterious beyond our understanding, or are little kids etc.. They never seem to be in control of their powers with a definite goal, unless the plot requires it of course.

#69 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 05:46 PM

As someone who doesn't read comics I have a question: if these characters are all capable of easily re-writing reality or destroying thousands of warships so fast that not a single one of those warships gets to fire off a shot at Earth, or can do any of the things being implied in this thread, how do these comics continue? You'd think that the so called "street level" characters, or even characters that work on a planteray level would have all been killed years ago by a single one of these dudes just saying "You know what? I don't want them here anymore."


Because the comic companies want to make money by selling copies. No one wants to see all these all powerful beings crush all opposition. I mean, it's just like if the wizard world contacted the muggle world, got all or most of the Death Eaters in one place and hit them with a hydrogen bomb. Boring...

#70 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 05:47 PM

If that's true then why is everyone seeming to bank on them being fully in control of their powers during this fight? I don't doubt that, eventually the Marvel Earth will be able to destroy the IoM fleet, but I doubt it'll be because of a single dude going "No, I don't want these here and waving a hand and destroying everything" and I also doubt it'll be before the ships send at least 137,000 energy lances/rounds/bombs/missile at the planet and kill most of the population.

#71 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 05:56 PM

Because the comic companies want to make money by selling copies. No one wants to see all these all powerful beings crush all opposition. I mean, it's just like if the wizard world contacted the muggle world, got all or most of the Death Eaters in one place and hit them with a hydrogen bomb. Boring...


Well I know the real reason for that (companies want to make money) but outside universe reasons aren't valid to explain things inside the settings. I want to know why these reality warpers aren't just pulling people out of the timeline or slowing down reality to a crawl relative to them, throwing stars at individual people, altering universal constants or crumpling galaxies into black holes to throw at people like ninja stars. Or why, at the lowest, they don't simply rewrite reality to not allow crime.

#72 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 05:58 PM

There would be no point in having costumed superheroes at all if that happened?

#73 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:03 PM

There would be no point in having costumed superheroes at all if that happened?


I know, which is what I'm getting at. IF these reality warpers were really no-limits nigh omnipotent beings then the Marvel Universe would look alot different than it does.

Marvel Universe doesn't have (at least to my knowledge) reality warpers doing any of the things I listed, so these people probably aren't really no-limits nigh omnipotent beings.

#74 sirmethos

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:03 PM

Well I know the real reason for that (companies want to make money) but outside universe reasons aren't valid to explain things inside the settings. I want to know why these reality warpers aren't just pulling people out of the timeline or slowing down reality to a crawl relative to them, throwing stars at individual people, altering universal constants or crumpling galaxies into black holes to throw at people like ninja stars. Or why, at the lowest, they don't simply rewrite reality to not allow crime.


The only reason there is for Reality Warpers not simply taking care of things is, as you call it, outside universe reasons. I.e. the will of the authors. Inside the universe there has never been given any real reasons for it. Just like during WWH, there was never given an "inside the setting" explanation for why Dr. Strange just boosted his physical powers and duked it out with Hulk, instead of just using magic and sending him away, putting him in stasis, or half a dozen other methods of disposing of the threat, that Strange has available.

And just like there is no "inside the setting" explanation, for why Darkseid didn't simply use his telepathic powers to extract the information he needed from Batman's mind.

etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.

#75 sirmethos

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:08 PM

I know, which is what I'm getting at. IF these reality warpers were really no-limits nigh omnipotent beings then the Marvel Universe would look alot different than it does.

Marvel Universe doesn't have (at least to my knowledge) reality warpers doing any of the things I listed, so these people probably aren't really no-limits nigh omnipotent beings.


The only one of the reality warpers that I listed, that is Not stated as being "nigh-omnipotent" or another similar wording for the same obscene amount of power, is Arcadia DeVille. Arcadia's upper limit is "unknown", thus it could be relatively low.

But both Franklin Richards, Mister M, Willie Evans and Wiccan, are all stated as having virtually no limits(For Willie Evans his power is stated directly as rivaling that of Franklin Richards).

#76 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:12 PM

And just like there is no "inside the setting" explanation, for why Darkseid didn't simply use his telepathic powers to extract the information he needed from Batman's mind.

etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum.


No, maybe no official one, but it would be easy to work one out. Like I said, I dont' read comics, so just working off the example you gave me, maybe Darkseid can't rip info out of people's heads? I don't know if Darkseid has ripped info from people's minds before, and so therefore the question was "If he did this before why didn't he to it to Batman now?" Well... maybe he can't always do it? Maybe Dr. Strange couldn't use his powers to boost himself up to fight Hulk?

Back to all those reality warpers you were talking about, maybe the Marvel universe isn't some incomprehensible playground for the reality warpers because, just maybe, they aren't nigh-omnipotent? After all, just because we haven't seen their upper limits doesn't mean they don't have one. Or maybe they can't change fundemental rules about reality (for instance, erasing crime), or something.

#77 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:21 PM

Either way, the point is the same. Searching on Marvel Database on this Wiccan guy, he can change reality as long as he says "I want..." and then whatever is tacked on to the end of that sentence will happen. Why hasn't he said "I want all illness to be cured," or "I want all crime to cease" or "I want all poverty to be eliminated" or something similar? An in universe reason though (and not the writers don't want it to happen).

BTW, reading on Franklin Richards it says he has "latent" reality warping, which means that he hasn't realized his full potential yet or anything. That's a pretty absurd idea, since he should be able to warp reality to make himself realize his potential... yet he doesn't?

#78 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:25 PM

Maybe Wiccan just doesn't want to play god?

#79 kainboa

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:28 PM

No, maybe no official one, but it would be easy to work one out. Like I said, I dont' read comics, so just working off the example you gave me, maybe Darkseid can't rip info out of people's heads? I don't know if Darkseid has ripped info from people's minds before, and so therefore the question was "If he did this before why didn't he to it to Batman now?" Well... maybe he can't always do it? Maybe Dr. Strange couldn't use his powers to boost himself up to fight Hulk?

Back to all those reality warpers you were talking about, maybe the Marvel universe isn't some incomprehensible playground for the reality warpers because, just maybe, they aren't nigh-omnipotent? After all, just because we haven't seen their upper limits doesn't mean they don't have one. Or maybe they can't change fundemental rules about reality (for instance, erasing crime), or something.


Or perhaps it's a much simpler explanation.

The writers don't want them to do it, thus they don't, it's called comics mechanics.

Simply stated, a lot of what happens in comics doesn't really make any sense when you think about it logically, characters "forgetting" about powers they've previously used, acting in a different way than what would be considered normal even for their situation etc.

To use your examples, Darkseid has shown his psionic powers on several occasions, easily mind controlling Super girl and several other people of that general calibre, it makes no sense that he couldn't do the same to Batman, who while having a large degree of willpower, is still "just" a human.

As for Dr. Strange, he has shown on several occasions, usually when dealing with the defenders, that he can easily teleport Hulk, why didn't he just do that in WW-Hulk, again, because that would make a boring story, the writers don't want him to do that.

#80 Ruinus

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Posted 10 November 2011 - 06:43 PM

Or perhaps it's a much simpler explanation.

The writers don't want them to do it, thus they don't, it's called comics mechanics.


You guys are aware that by the same token of appealing to the writers someone could turn the same method on you?

Check it out. This set up was written by the WH40k writers, so therefore the IoM fleet does in fact kill all the Marvel superhumans because they are heretics, mutants and in some cases xenos. Being written from a Space Marine's perspective this entire set up will be a long drawn out affair (probably... I dunno at least 900+ pages) that'll end with the main character Space Marine either dying as he kills the last heretic (probably the false god Thor) or living on to fight more grimdark wars.

Or the "writers" (which everyone seems to be assumign are Marvel writers) decide that a fight between all of Marvel's characters and generic mooks from WH40K isnt' enough, so they write in Galactus fighting for the IoM forces, since if the IoM kills all of Earths' defenders Galactus can eat the remaning planet.

Appealing to the writers solves nothing, since anyone can appeal to the writers to make any outcome possible. Mary Jane fights Galactus? There's no contest right? What if the writers decide that Mary Jane's latent Asgardian powers activate when Galactus hits her with an energy blast and her love of Peter Parker transforms her into Trollaria, Goddess of the Eight Ways of Love? These are all equally absurd propositions, but they are all as equally absurd as appealing to the writers not making characters who are considered to be nigh-omnipotent solve all the setting's problems.

Seriously, I dont' really see what's wrong with going "Mmmh, these characters should be able to do this with their reality warping powers. Yet they don't. Maybe we are overestimating their power?"




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