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Goku and Vegeta VS Batman and Captain America


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#41 xman4life

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 10:13 PM

yet he is able to out fight everyone that was taught martial arts? To learn martial arts is to not learn it, but to have it as part of your life. So if what you and Sirmethos say is true (which is not), then Goku is so much more skilled to be able to know how to do moves that it took Batman years to master.

Well to be quite honest. Having that type of speed and strength would make anyone good. Need an example? Spiderman. He said himself he isn't a good fighter but he is very fast, strong and agile so he can hang wiht almost anyone. Again he WAS taught martial arts but by his "grand father" and Master Roshi and King Kai taught him to to become FASTER and STRONGER.

#42 sirmethos

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 10:18 PM

Spider-Man is actually a brilliant example, of someone who has had no formal training, but is still a brilliant fighter.

Spider-man has created his own fighting style, that makes use of his special abilities, taking advantage of his high speed and agility.

If you took away Spider-Man's powers, he would be pretty much helpless in a fight, but as long as he has his powers, he is an extremely good close combat fighter.

#43 xman4life

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 10:34 PM

Spider-Man is actually a brilliant example, of someone who has had no formal training, but is still a brilliant fighter.

Spider-man has created his own fighting style, that makes use of his special abilities, taking advantage of his high speed and agility.

If you took away Spider-Man's powers, he would be pretty much helpless in a fight, but as long as he has his powers, he is an extremely good close combat fighter.

Thank you.

#44 Guest_Ivan_*

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 11:09 PM

Just to hammer home the point, please look at Tao Pai Pai. He was an insanely skilled Martial Artist (he killed Blue Shogun with only his tongue, just to show off,) and he initially beat Goku. Goku climbed a tower and drank some fake magic water, and that additionaly strength training made him *powerful* enough to be able to defeat Tao Pai Pai. If climbing ladders made you a better martial artist, there would be more firemen on the MMA circuit. It was the additional ki strength that let him win. This is a conceit of the DBZ universe- everyone has Ki. Videl is probably a more skilled martial artist than most of the Z fighters, simply because she was able to make it into the tournament finals without mastering her ki (it almost cost her her life.)

Goku blocks kicks with a single outstretched forearm. That is not a martial arts technique, that is a superpower. This is why people are saying Batman and Cap win so easily. Goku and Vegeta are *used* to having insane amounts of ki flowing through their bodies. Goku blocks Trunks' sword with his finger... there's no martial arts skill involved in doing that. There's a large amount of ki control, which is certainly a skill Goku has in abundance, but this particular fight is sans ki.

That's the crux of what sirmethos is saying. Superpowers and skills are separate things. Thor has Superpowers. Batman has skills. Iron Fist has both. Goku and Vegeta are not particularly skilled *martial artists.* They have superpowers, which they are skilled at using. Take away those superpowers, and they're left with techniques that don't translate well to frail human bodies.

#45 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 12:08 AM

I get your point guys, really I do, and while you are partially correct I disagree in the fact that without ki, Goku would be less skilled than Batman.

Lets really look at this guys

Batman is a master of several (under-statement) styles of fighting, he is peak human, whatever that means (I can discuss later on this) so he too relies on his physical prowess to execute his "moves" Batman was taught by other people and has used his own combination

Goku has trained to fight(unarmed combat, whatever you like to call it, since martial arts is not a style, but a way of life, more specifically a way to fight) since a kid, yes he gained the use of ki, which was strengthen by training to fight, to gain stamina and strength, which brings speed. He uses his ki, to further enhance those attributes to further gain the advantage to dispose of his enemy. Simple tactic, take away his ki and he still has his training, his own natural skills and his experience. So if you mean that if Goku had his training taken away and so did Batman would Batman win, yes, Goku was a weak kid and probably would be strong, and do ok, but Batman would probably beat him. No ki, means Goku can still do what peak humans can do, since he did still train to have great agility and learn to move in such a manner. Like having different stances, react to others moves, etc.. Sure he has powers, but that would put him on skiils and powers, like Iron-Fist.
If you want to get nip picky Batman was more formally trained, but Goku received harder training, like swimming an ocean, climbing a huge ladder that was who knows how long, as a kid, and yes you would get stronger doing that, try doing a rope climb before you say anything, and look at the training most martial artists (not movie ones or comic book ones )do and you will see who is not only more realistic(in at least the methods you train, remember there are times when skill meets physical abiities)but also gives you more gains towards your ultimate goal, to become a better fighter.

again I get what you all are saying and I am not trying to sound bias

#46 M Bison

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 07:20 AM

Thing is, his strength due to his climbing and such won't help him here as it has been removed. When does he learn anything he can do with a human body? Does he learn throws? Does he learn moves that don't require super human durability and strength? If he tries to block a kick from Steve Rodgers or Batman using his forearm with the strength and durability levels he has here, then his arm is going to be caved in.

Look at the issue of Vegita's jealously, for instance. He spends his time complaining about not being as strong as Goku, and about how he will become stronger. He trains by honing his physical strength in high gravity. He doesn't practice by honing his skills, nor does he ever complain about not being as skilled as Goku.

Meanwhile Batman uses martial skills every time he fights. We see him using pressure points techniques for example. We know he teaches others these skills too, people like Kyle Rayner an Superman are half decent martial artists in their own rights because of him.

#47 victim36

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:01 AM

I'm not here to argue who would win this fight. All fighters on the same power scale, I think it would be a wash. Goku might pull it out just because of his impressive damage soak.

However, to say that DBZ characters aren't trained martial artist is just wrong. Martial arts is the back bone for all of their combat scenes. Goku has trained with Grandpa Gohan, Kami's tower, not to mention all of the sparring sessions with the other Z fighters.

http://dragonball.wi...ki/Martial_Arts

During fights you see vicious amounts of kicks, punches, blocks, knees, elbows, throws, counters strikes. All aspects and techniques used by Batman and Captain America.

Now their Ki does make them faster, stronger, and able to fight in ways normal people can't (like upside down while flying). They love to use their ki for huge blast, and flashy explosions, but when the power levels are close it comes down to the better trained fighter.

Goku vs. Vegeta's 1st fight. The first half was almost all H2H combat, until Goku got the upperhand and Vegeta tried to destroy the planet.
Piccolo vs. Frieza. Piccolo was weaker than Frieza, but due to Nail's experience Piccolo was able to counter and push Frieza back in H2H.
Goku vs. Cell Clones. Goku uses H2H to beat back 6 clones, taking few shots.

Does their Ki play an important part in their combative styles? Yes! There is no question that they way they fight is largely influenced by their ability to fly, shoot Ki blasts, short range teleport, etc. However, when the power levels are close, or when they can't afford a to lock up blasts, they have all proven to be incredibly capable in a fist fight.

Once again, I'm not saying that they are/are not better than Batman or Capt. America. But, I am saying that they can hold their own in a brawl.

#48 victim36

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:34 AM

If he tries to block a kick from Steve Rodgers or Batman using his forearm with the strength and durability levels he has here, then his arm is going to be caved in.

Look at the issue of Vegita's jealously, for instance. He spends his time complaining about not being as strong as Goku, and about how he will become stronger. He trains by honing his physical strength in high gravity. He doesn't practice by honing his skills, nor does he ever complain about not being as skilled as Goku.

The one of most common breaks in all of fighting arts in a broken forearm cause by blocking a kick. Randy Couture suffered a broken arm blocking a kick from Gonzaga, and then beat on Gonzaga for a round an a half to secure the win. Liddell broke Rich Franklin's arm with a head kick that was blocked, Franklin returned the favor by knocking Liddell out with the same arm. Point is; that's a common break. Batman most likely has suffered the same break multiple times when blocking head kicks, its just part of it. Top level fighters are more than capable of shrugging it off and adapting to it.

Yes, Vegeta wants to be stronger. In DBZ, it is not enough to be just an outstanding Martial Artist. You have to continue to raise you Power Level, or you get left behind physically. With that said it's not like all they do is push-ups and squat thrusts. Every Z fighter who enters an altered gravity room always goes through their forms. They practice their basics, retraining their bodies in the heavier atmosphere. Why? So that they can properly use their heightened abilities.

It's just like making weight for a fight, if you don't drop it properly you're sluggish and easily winded. If you put on wieght incorrectly, you lack the speed and power you need to be compete at the higher level.

http://dragonball.wi...ravity_Room.jpg

#49 sirmethos

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:46 AM

-snip-



To take a few quotes from the wiki that you linked to yourself

About Martial Arts in Dragon Ball:
"The purpose of martial arts training is to push one's physical condition so that they become stronger."

About the Crane School:
"This school is based on the use of enormous loads of ki to damage the enemies."


A few examples that the wiki lists of 'Martial Arts training':

"Turtle School's training."(which, as mentioned earlier, was Directly stated to not include any actual martial arts moves, and only focus on increasing their power, and teaching a few special Ki techniques.)

"Mr. Popo's training"(again, training purely focused on increasing power, with a few Ki Techniques).

"Korin's training"(again, training focused on increasing the Power of the student)

"Grand Elder Guru's Unlock Potential "(this does nothing except increase the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

"Goku's Gravity Machine training."(again, training focused on increasing Power).

"Old Kai's Unlock Ability"(Again, a technique that simply unlocks/increases the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').



Have I made my point, or do I need to go on?

#50 bigballerju

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:48 AM

To take a few quotes from the wiki that you linked to yourself

About Martial Arts in Dragon Ball:
"The purpose of martial arts training is to push one's physical condition so that they become stronger."

About the Crane School:
"This school is based on the use of enormous loads of ki to damage the enemies."


A few examples that the wiki lists of 'Martial Arts training':

"Turtle School's training."(which, as mentioned earlier, was Directly stated to not include any actual martial arts moves, and only focus on increasing their power, and teaching a few special Ki techniques.)

"Mr. Popo's training"(again, training purely focused on increasing power, with a few Ki Techniques).

"Korin's training"(again, training focused on increasing the Power of the student)

"Grand Elder Guru's Unlock Potential "(this does nothing except increase the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

"Goku's Gravity Machine training."(again, training focused on increasing Power).

"Old Kai's Unlock Ability"(Again, a technique that simply unlocks/increases the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').



Have I made my point, or do I need to go on?


If they still don't get it you might as well forget it.

#51 SSGoku

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 10:56 AM

If he tries to block a kick from Steve Rodgers or Batman using his forearm with the strength and durability levels he has here, then his arm is going to be caved in.

That's actually a pretty common fighting move, and I've seen Batman do it plenty of times.

#52 victim36

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:18 AM

To take a few quotes from the wiki that you linked to yourself

About Martial Arts in Dragon Ball:
"The purpose of martial arts training is to push one's physical condition so that they become stronger."

About the Crane School:
"This school is based on the use of enormous loads of ki to damage the enemies."


A few examples that the wiki lists of 'Martial Arts training':

"Turtle School's training."(which, as mentioned earlier, was Directly stated to not include any actual martial arts moves, and only focus on increasing their power, and teaching a few special Ki techniques.)

"Mr. Popo's training"(again, training purely focused on increasing power, with a few Ki Techniques).

"Korin's training"(again, training focused on increasing the Power of the student)

"Grand Elder Guru's Unlock Potential "(this does nothing except increase the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').

"Goku's Gravity Machine training."(again, training focused on increasing Power).

"Old Kai's Unlock Ability"(Again, a technique that simply unlocks/increases the power of the 'student', but is still listed as an example of 'martial arts training').



Have I made my point, or do I need to go on?

I see the point that you are making. That these schools are designed to train their students to increase their Ki ability, and don't seem to be "true" martial arts academies. So where does the DBZ universe learn to use; jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, elbow smashes, figer jabs, shutos, hard blocks, push blocks, trapping, throws, front kicks, side kicks, round house kicks, axe kicks, jump kicks, sweeps, trips, shin blocks, knee thrusts, etc. Is it from watching to many Van Damme and Segal movies as kids? Is it purely instinctive? Is it trail and error while learning to use Ki blasts during sparring sessions? Or is it plausible that to help focus, concentrate, manipulate, and generate their Ki that they are taught how to fight as part of their training regime?

Typically, in Martial Arts, techniques build on each other. You learn a snap front kick before you learn any other kick. That way you learn the basic motor skills of kicking. It helps you retrain your muscles for kicking properly, and you help to focus the mindset necessary for learning new kicks. But, you're right according to the information provided their training only raises their Ki, and teaches new types of Ki based attacks.

#53 sirmethos

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 11:51 AM

I see the point that you are making. That these schools are designed to train their students to increase their Ki ability, and don't seem to be "true" martial arts academies. So where does the DBZ universe learn to use; jabs, crosses, hooks, uppercuts, elbow smashes, figer jabs, shutos, hard blocks, push blocks, trapping, throws, front kicks, side kicks, round house kicks, axe kicks, jump kicks, sweeps, trips, shin blocks, knee thrusts, etc. Is it from watching to many Van Damme and Segal movies as kids? Is it purely instinctive? Is it trail and error while learning to use Ki blasts during sparring sessions? Or is it plausible that to help focus, concentrate, manipulate, and generate their Ki that they are taught how to fight as part of their training regime?

Typically, in Martial Arts, techniques build on each other. You learn a snap front kick before you learn any other kick. That way you learn the basic motor skills of kicking. It helps you retrain your muscles for kicking properly, and you help to focus the mindset necessary for learning new kicks. But, you're right according to the information provided their training only raises their Ki, and teaches new types of Ki based attacks.



Finally another one seem to be getting it. B)

I'm not claiming that they have no combat skills. But they have no formal training. All of Goku's combat skills comes from a little initial training from his Grandfather, and the rest from fighting/sparring.


In the Dragon Ball universe, combat is based on Power. The more powerful you are, and the more powerful techniques you have, the better the fighter.

In Marvel/DC, martial arts are much like in the real world, they use a lot of real martial arts, with a few fictional ones added for good measure.



Goku and Vegeta have several years of combat experience. That is their skill.

Batman and Captain America have several years of formal training, learning several different styles for physical combat, and several years of combat experience on top of it.


When you strip the Saiyans of their Ki, they simply don't have a chance of winning against Cap and the Bat.

Likewise, if you were to make them even by giving Batman and Captain America a Ki power level equal to Goku and Vegeta, they would easily get defeated by the two Saiyans, because while their physical combat skills are superior, they simply don't have the skill in using Ki as the Saiyans have. The amount of special Ki techniques that the Saiyans have would overwhelm them if nothing else.

With equal Ki. Cap and the Bat would still only be able to produce basic Ki blasts. While Goku and Vegeta know several techniques that multiply their power output.

#54 victim36

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 12:19 PM

Finally another one seem to be getting it. B)

I'm not claiming that they have no combat skills. But they have no formal training. All of Goku's combat skills comes from a little initial training from his Grandfather, and the rest from fighting/sparring.


In the Dragon Ball universe, combat is based on Power. The more powerful you are, and the more powerful techniques you have, the better the fighter.

In Marvel/DC, martial arts are much like in the real world, they use a lot of real martial arts, with a few fictional ones added for good measure.



Goku and Vegeta have several years of combat experience. That is their skill.

Batman and Captain America have several years of formal training, learning several different styles for physical combat, and several years of combat experience on top of it.


When you strip the Saiyans of their Ki, they simply don't have a chance of winning against Cap and the Bat.

Likewise, if you were to make them even by giving Batman and Captain America a Ki power level equal to Goku and Vegeta, they would easily get defeated by the two Saiyans, because while their physical combat skills are superior, they simply don't have the skill in using Ki as the Saiyans have. The amount of special Ki techniques that the Saiyans have would overwhelm them if nothing else.

With equal Ki. Cap and the Bat would still only be able to produce basic Ki blasts. While Goku and Vegeta know several techniques that multiply their power output.

I see what you're saying. The Z fighters have little formal training and tons of experience, while Batman and Capt. have both, at least in none Ki combat. In essence you're comparing this fight to a cople of Toughman fighters versus the "Pac-Man" and "Money" Mayweather. And, if the roles were reversed so would the analogy. :-)

I don't know if I totally agree; the skill set they show in DBZ is pretty polished to just be basic fighters. But, I can totally see where you're coming from, and more importantly it is easy to back-up your logic. Heck, the hard evidence seems to back up your points more effecitively than it does mine.

So the question then becomes: With a month to get use to no Ki, can they translate their combat prowness properly? Can they take those years of experience and adapt quickly enough to fight Batman and Capt., or is the gap to big for them? A month is a long time with the way Goku and Vegeta like to train, and it wouldn't be the first time fighters with solid experience and limited training were able to hold their own with Batman. Bane (off of venom) fought Batman to pretty much a standstill, and Capt. is more known scrapping ability then he is known as a technical striker.

#55 victim36

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 12:36 PM

Another question to just throw out there. What about Ryu from Street Fighter? He is stated to have learned Martial Arts, like Goku. However, like Goku, the basis for his abilities and power an enhanced by his chi. His go to techniques are similar to Goku, i.e. huge blasts of energy. Ryu has tapped into the Dark Hado to make himself stronger to win. Gouken, his master, has learned how to empty his soul to make himself stronger.

#56 sirmethos

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 12:47 PM

Another question to just throw out there. What about Ryu from Street Fighter? He is stated to have learned Martial Arts, like Goku. However, like Goku, the basis for his abilities and power an enhanced by his chi. His go to techniques are similar to Goku, i.e. huge blasts of energy. Ryu has tapped into the Dark Hado to make himself stronger to win. Gouken, his master, has learned how to empty his soul to make himself stronger.



Ryu actually has technical/formal training. He was trained for 20+ years by Gouken.

Ryu is better compared to someone like Iron Fist or Shang Chi, than to Goku, where the use of Ki/Chi is only a secondary part of the training, or possibly only an advanced part(i.e. only taught later in the training), while for Goku, the use of Ki/Chi is the primary focus of his fighting style.

#57 bigballerju

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:29 PM

Spiderman I want to say now is actually being taught Kung Fu by Shang Chi so without his powers he would be able to hold himself in a fight to a extent now.

Hell wasn't Hercules in DBZ stated to be the best among humans in Martial Arts very early on in DBZ at one point?

#58 victim36

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 01:42 PM

Ryu actually has technical/formal training. He was trained for 20+ years by Gouken.

Ryu is better compared to someone like Iron Fist or Shang Chi, than to Goku, where the use of Ki/Chi is only a secondary part of the training, or possibly only an advanced part(i.e. only taught later in the training), while for Goku, the use of Ki/Chi is the primary focus of his fighting style.

Ryu spent 20+ years training with a master, an art that uses Ki based attacks at its basis for high level techniques. Goku was given a base knowledge from a world renowned martial artist too, then traveled the world training with a variety of masters, albeit not for 20+years.

Ryu learned how to incorporate is Ki into his fighting technique, making it a pivotal part of his aresnal. Goku learned how to incorporate his Ki into combat, making it a pivotal part of his aresnal. In the DBZ world Ki is a more pivotal part of their world.

Ryu entered a world wide competition for martial artist, and used his powerful Ki energy to pull out several wins in the clutch. Goku entered a world wide martial arts on several occasions, and used his powerful Ki energy to help pull of several wins in the clutch.

Ryu intermixes his combative style with his Ki energy to devestating effect. Goku intermixes H2H with his Ki attacks to devestating effect. Biggest difference, Goku has a larger pool to draw from. Making his attacks bigger and stronger.

Here's the problem I'm having with your side of the debate: Goku has been trained, even if it you argue it's just from his Grandpa, he has then refined and introduced new techniques into his system. As part of his world, he has to increase his Ki to keep pace. That doesn't discredit him as a Martial Artist. You can't fight everything he has, using the combative skills he has, and just to be labeled an untrained scrapper.

Doing so would be like calling Ryu an untrained fireball thrower. Just because he uses his Hadoken regularly, and uses his Ki to agument his fighting technique, doesn't stop him from being a top quality martial artist.

Why is it any different with Goku? Sorry, Goku, we have to overlook all the H2H techniques you executed over the last 30 minutes. Yup, all those techniques that we would use to call anyone else a martial artist are thrown right out of the window. Why? Well, you can fly, shoot out earth shattering blasts, teleport, transfer enrgy to others, and so on. We know everyone else does it too, and that to win you have to keep increasing the amount of energy you can unload. But, that just invalidates you as a martial artist, tough break Goku.

What's that Goku? Superman? Well, that's different. You see even though; he shoots lasers out of his eyes, has freezing breath, can fly, move at super speed, sundip to increase his energy, usually just stands and slugs it out with his opponent he is still considered a decent martial artist because Batman trained him.

These are the some of the reason I having issues discrediting Z fighters as Martial artist. They fight regularly, they show a high level of competence in H2H combat, their world has martial arts, but because the martial arts increase or unlock Ki its not a real fighting style. It's not like they just fly around in circles firing blast at each other, well not always. They all fight, they all duke it out, and they all show a skill level that will compete with any other martial artist from other sources.

#59 bigballerju

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 03:37 PM

Ryu's only KI based attacks are the Hadouken and Shoryuken. The rest of his training, skill, and more does not require KI. Ryu's Martial Arts is pure training and more. It's not based on KI like DBZ. There is a difference between Ryu and Goku.

Ryu if you took away his Chi would still be the damn good Martial Artist we know. He just wouldn't be able to do the Hadouken, Shoryuken, and wouldn't have to worry about the Dark Hadou.

#60 victim36

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 03:46 PM

Ryu's only KI based attacks are the Hadouken and Shoryuken. The rest of his training, skill, and more does not require KI. Ryu's Martial Arts is pure training and more. It's not based on KI like DBZ. There is a difference between Ryu and Goku.

Ryu if you took away his Chi would still be the damn good Martial Artist we know. He just wouldn't be able to do the Hadouken, Shoryuken, and wouldn't have to worry about the Dark Hadou.

I don't disagree. Ryu is a talented martial artist regardless of his Ki attacks. I was just using him to draw a correlation between the two. Ryu without his Hadoken doesn't stop him from being a martial artist, it just takes away part of his arsenal. Taking away Goku's Ki blasts doesn't mean he is no longer a martial artist, it just means he can't fly or destroy the world. That's the point I was trying to make.

If you take away Goku's Ki attacks, it doesn't mean he is going to flounder around helplessly all of a sudden. He is still going to be able to fight at a competent level.




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