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Goku and Vegeta VS Batman and Captain America


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#21 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:29 PM

No. Goku as a Kid did not know Martial Arts. Goku was just stronger and faster then the regular human. What Martial Arts did he practice in Dragonball before Roshi? None even Roshi's training wasn't true Martial Arts. Vegeta too was with Frieza and what Martial Arts did he practice? None.

...His adoptive Grandfather was a student of Master Roshi's. Goku learned some from Grandpa Gohan.

And Vegeta was raised and trained as a regular Saiyan before he worked for Frieza. Its safe to assume he got the best training due to his being the Prince of all Saiyans.

#22 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:35 PM

Goku and Vegeta use ki for everything. Without it, neither one is really that skilled. Even back in the early part of Dragonball, the focus was always on being stronger and faster than your opponent, rather than precision or style. Meanwhile Bat and Cap are tacticians of the highest order, and both used to dealing with stronger, faster opponents (Goku and Vegeta are not, in this scenario, stronger or faster.) I agree with Sirmethos.

Now, using Ki, Goku is the absolute master. As a child, he duplicated the Kamehameha after watching it only once. He masters new techniques like the Kaioken and Instant Transmission, which usually take a lifetime to learn, in a few months. He was naturally able to sense ki, something both Vegeta and Frieza, who were far more powerful at the time, couldn't do. He's been shown to learn and use techniques created by others quite a bit more than any other character.
Vegeta's a fast learner, who has an "Anything you can do..." attitude, but I don't think he's as skilled with Ki as Goku. He's far more serious/relentless though.

Like I said, though. Without Ki, Goku and Vegeta are no match for Bat & Cap.

"A skill is the learned capacity to carry out pre-determined results often with the minimum outlay of time, energy, or both. Skills can often be divided into domain-general and domain-specific skills."

Style has nothing to do with skills. Saying that Goku is really not skilled is like saying that Batman isn't eaither. Both train all day, both do the same thing, yet just because Goku has ki, means he is just stronger or faster?
Then Thor has no skills, Darkseid has no skills, Iron-Fist has no skills, Karate Kid has no skills,

or anyone else that trains to fight has no skills. Throwing a fancy kick does not determine skills or else Van Damne would be the most skilled. Goku being stronger and faster means that he is better physically then these guys. But when Goku faces more powerful or equally skilled people his skills come into play

#23 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:38 PM

No. Goku as a Kid did not know Martial Arts. Goku was just stronger and faster then the regular human. What Martial Arts did he practice in Dragonball before Roshi? None even Roshi's training wasn't true Martial Arts. Vegeta too was with Frieza and what Martial Arts did he practice? None.



Not true martial arts?

Please explain, I am curious what you call true martial arts, I hope you don't consider Boxing and Judo(what Captain America uses, as well as his own style) more true martial art, they are all aspects of martial arts.


Watch the show please in DB it's all about martial arts, and all kinds of styles.

#24 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:45 PM

No. Goku as a Kid did not know Martial Arts. Goku was just stronger and faster then the regular human. What Martial Arts did he practice in Dragonball before Roshi? None even Roshi's training wasn't true Martial Arts. Vegeta too was with Frieza and what Martial Arts did he practice? None.

Grandpa Gohan taught him his knowledge of Martial Arts.

#25 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 02:47 PM

Tien trains more than Gohan, and yet Gohan can always beat him.


I disagree. Tien potentially, given enough time, could train enough to beat Gohan as he was during the end of DBZ when he gave up fighting.

As for training not improving potential...are you joking? All the Z Fighters, way below Raditz when he first arrives. A year later, almost all of them are strong enough to kill Raditz with ease. Then King Kai's training.

Oh and the 3 years training before the Android Saga: Vegeta was able to train enough to reach Super Saiyan.

#26 sirmethos

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 03:36 PM

The point is, that all of their training is to improve their Strength and Speed, i.e. their Ki power level.


Goku was 'trained' by Master Roshi, yes, but the only thing Master Roshi's training did, was make him stronger, faster and more durable. Master Roshi directly said that he wasn't going to teach him any actual moves aside from the kamehameha. It's pretty safe to assume that he trained Goku's grandfather the same way.

The same goes for Goku's training with Popo and King Kai. The majority of the training was simply increasing his power, with a few Ki techniques added(Ki sensing and an improved kamehameha from Popo, and the Kaio-ken and Genki Dama from King Kai).

#27 bigballerju

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 03:42 PM

The point is, that all of their training is to improve their Strength and Speed, i.e. their Ki power level.


Goku was 'trained' by Master Roshi, yes, but the only thing Master Roshi's training did, was make him stronger, faster and more durable. Master Roshi directly said that he wasn't going to teach him any actual moves aside from the kamehameha. It's pretty safe to assume that he trained Goku's grandfather the same way.

The same goes for Goku's training with Popo and King Kai. The majority of the training was simply increasing his power, with a few Ki techniques added(Ki sensing and an improved kamehameha from Popo, and the Kaio-ken and Genki Dama from King Kai).


Exactly. Z Fighters aren't trained Martial Artists like Cassadra Cain, Batman, Steve Roger, Daredevil, Ryu, Elektra, and more. There training only relies on getting more powerful and learning different techniques.

Thats not to say Z Fighters aren't excellent fighters because they are. However most of there training and skills needs KI. Without it there far below Batman and Cap's levels.

#28 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:37 PM

I disagree. Tien potentially, given enough time, could train enough to beat Gohan as he was during the end of DBZ when he gave up fighting.

As for training not improving potential...are you joking? All the Z Fighters, way below Raditz when he first arrives. A year later, almost all of them are strong enough to kill Raditz with ease. Then King Kai's training.

Oh and the 3 years training before the Android Saga: Vegeta was able to train enough to reach Super Saiyan.



Tien can have a million years of training, he will never beat Gohan up. Vegeta reached SSJ, because his potential was always high. Tien's wasn't and no matter what all he could even do was hold Cell down and deflect a Buu Shot.

#29 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:41 PM

Heh. That's so wrong. He had what...30 years or so of training? In that time he went from like a power level of 300 or so to powerful enough to hold down Cell and deflect a Buu shot, showing how powerful he is. That's from 30 years of training or however long. A million years? Yeah he owns Gohan.

#30 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:44 PM

The point is, that all of their training is to improve their Strength and Speed, i.e. their Ki power level.


Goku was 'trained' by Master Roshi, yes, but the only thing Master Roshi's training did, was make him stronger, faster and more durable. Master Roshi directly said that he wasn't going to teach him any actual moves aside from the kamehameha. It's pretty safe to assume that he trained Goku's grandfather the same way.

The same goes for Goku's training with Popo and King Kai. The majority of the training was simply increasing his power, with a few Ki techniques added(Ki sensing and an improved kamehameha from Popo, and the Kaio-ken and Genki Dama from King Kai).



How is this being taken seriously. All Master Roshi trained Goku is was to get stronger and faster? That comes with the training like working out. Try being a fighter and not get faster or stronger.

I think you guys should not comment on Martial Arts until you know the difference. What has Batman done that Goku hasn;'t when it comes to training. You think Batman doing a back flip and then doing the splits in the air is more Martial Arts?

I am sorry but there is no look to martial arts, its a way of fighting/ living life. GOku is the epitomy of martial arts. Just like Bruce Lee was in his time.


The thing is, you and the other dude, think flashy is martial arts? Liek How is Shiva trained better? What does she do that others don't?

Roshi trains goku to become a better fighter, with that it means to be the best right? So if you are so strong and fast, that when you add the skills and gracefulness of a martial art, you will effectively be that much better. Which is why Goku is always improving.

#31 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:48 PM

Heh. That's so wrong. He had what...30 years or so of training? In that time he went from like a power level of 300 or so to powerful enough to hold down Cell and deflect a Buu shot, showing how powerful he is. That's from 30 years of training or however long. A million years? Yeah he owns Gohan.



I agree he improved, but he did not become more powerful than he can exceed. Lets just say that Tien has a potential of 1000 (not power levels just a random number) and he trains, he will get closer to that number, but he will never go higher than 1000


Goku and Gohan are able to exceed that, through their blood, so no Tien cannot keep getting more powerful, but will reach max power and training can keep him at max power for longer as he gets older

#32 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:51 PM

How exactly do you figure that? Was it part of the manga or something I missed? Because it sounds like a bunch of BS to me. DBZ is all about people transcending their limits in big fights.

#33 sirmethos

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 05:51 PM

How is this being taken seriously. All Master Roshi trained Goku is was to get stronger and faster? That comes with the training like working out. Try being a fighter and not get faster or stronger.

I think you guys should not comment on Martial Arts until you know the difference. What has Batman done that Goku hasn;'t when it comes to training. You think Batman doing a back flip and then doing the splits in the air is more Martial Arts?

I am sorry but there is no look to martial arts, its a way of fighting/ living life. GOku is the epitomy of martial arts. Just like Bruce Lee was in his time.


The thing is, you and the other dude, think flashy is martial arts? Liek How is Shiva trained better What does she do that others don't?

Roshi trains goku to become a better fighter, with that it means to be the best right? So if you are so strong and fast, that when you add the skills and gracfulness of a martial art, you will effectively be that much better. Which is why Goku is always improving.


No, you don't get it.

None of the training Goku got from Roshi, was actual martial arts training.

The training was just hard physical labor, while wearing heavy turtle shells. The only thing the training did, was increase their Power, they got no actual Combat skills from their training with Roshi, aside from learning the Kamehameha.


The same goes for his training with Popo and King Kai.

#34 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 06:12 PM

No, you don't get it.

None of the training Goku got from Roshi, was actual martial arts training.

The training was just hard physical labor, while wearing heavy turtle shells. The only thing the training did, was increase their Power, they got no actual Combat skills from their training with Roshi, aside from learning the Kamehameha.


The same goes for his training with Popo and King Kai.

Then where did they learn their martial arts from? They are not street fighters clearly.

#35 sirmethos

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 06:30 PM

Then where did they learn their martial arts from? They are not street fighters clearly.


Goku already had his fighting style at the beginning of DB, that he had learned from his grandfather. And Krillin came from a monastery where he likely learned his fighting style.

#36 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 06:52 PM

No, you don't get it.

None of the training Goku got from Roshi, was actual martial arts training.

The training was just hard physical labor, while wearing heavy turtle shells. The only thing the training did, was increase their Power, they got no actual Combat skills from their training with Roshi, aside from learning the Kamehameha.


The same goes for his training with Popo and King Kai.

I do get it, what you do not get is that there are multiple ways of learning martial arts. Goku was trained to become stronger and faster yes, but to limit his training to that makes no sense. Clearly you do not see everyday training, but there was lessons given on how to punch, kick, etc.. Since DBZ is so far ahead of DC when it comes to martial arts, they focused on more important things like actual power, you know to get better, but you are saying all they learned was to run and become stronger. Show me where Batman has trained different? He lifts weights, does cardio, practices technique, which is not different. I think you think tat Goku would need to have a black belt on and have the whole cliché of the kung fu master and student training. If you are referring to Goku always powering up and then whooping some ass, yes a physical boost will help, but that doesn't mean they have no skill nor didn't learn any.

I doubt Batman shows every aspect of Bats training, I am sure they imply that he learned a lot of it. Or else DC would have a million pages of every single fighting lesson he had.

Batman is a great fighter, Goku is too, you noticed that I am not saying Batman is weaker in skill, just that you really think you can take all of Goku's abilities away in this site? Pretty soon you will say Robin is a better fighter than Goku, and then DBZ will be weaker than the Power Rangers.

#37 sirmethos

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 07:43 PM

I do get it, what you do not get is that there are multiple ways of learning martial arts. Goku was trained to become stronger and faster yes, but to limit his training to that makes no sense. Clearly you do not see everyday training, but there was lessons given on how to punch, kick, etc.. Since DBZ is so far ahead of DC when it comes to martial arts, they focused on more important things like actual power, you know to get better, but you are saying all they learned was to run and become stronger. Show me where Batman has trained different? He lifts weights, does cardio, practices technique, which is not different. I think you think tat Goku would need to have a black belt on and have the whole cliché of the kung fu master and student training. If you are referring to Goku always powering up and then whooping some ass, yes a physical boost will help, but that doesn't mean they have no skill nor didn't learn any.

I doubt Batman shows every aspect of Bats training, I am sure they imply that he learned a lot of it. Or else DC would have a million pages of every single fighting lesson he had.

Batman is a great fighter, Goku is too, you noticed that I am not saying Batman is weaker in skill, just that you really think you can take all of Goku's abilities away in this site? Pretty soon you will say Robin is a better fighter than Goku, and then DBZ will be weaker than the Power Rangers.



Again, Roshi directly said that he wouldn't be teaching them(goku and krillin) any moves, that they would have to figure out how to use their increased power themselves.

They did NOT learn how to fight from Roshi, and the same goes for Popo and King Kai.

The only actual Combat Training that Goku has received, he got from his grandfather, and from through experience from sparring/fighting.

#38 xman4life

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 08:24 PM

Again, Roshi directly said that he wouldn't be teaching them(goku and krillin) any moves, that they would have to figure out how to use their increased power themselves.

They did NOT learn how to fight from Roshi, and the same goes for Popo and King Kai.

The only actual Combat Training that Goku has received, he got from his grandfather, and from through experience from sparring/fighting.

Wow now that I think about it he really didn't learn any Martial arts as far as styles or anything. He was just trained like a boxer is trained. Hard labor, running and push ups, Master Roshi didn't teach him a single kick or punch. Just how to use Ki. Honestly just sit back and think about it.

#39 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 08:43 PM

Wow now that I think about it he really didn't learn any Martial arts as far as styles or anything. He was just trained like a boxer is trained. Hard labor, running and push ups, Master Roshi didn't teach him a single kick or punch. Just how to use Ki. Honestly just sit back and think about it.



yet he is able to out fight everyone that was taught martial arts? To learn martial arts is to not learn it, but to have it as part of your life. So if what you and Sirmethos say is true (which is not), then Goku is so much more skilled to be able to know how to do moves that it took Batman years to master.

#40 sirmethos

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Posted 26 August 2011 - 10:11 PM

yet he is able to out fight everyone that was taught martial arts? To learn martial arts is to not learn it, but to have it as part of your life. So if what you and Sirmethos say is true (which is not), then Goku is so much more skilled to be able to know how to do moves that it took Batman years to master.


Tell you what. If you can show me a scan/screenshot from the manga where it is either directly shown that he learns martial arts, or where it is directly Said that he learns martial arts, then I'll concede.

Of course, Since I just spent an hour or so, looking through all the manga again, I can tell you right now that there are no such things.


I'll repeat, Goku was never formally trained in any form of martial arts. The most he learned was a few Ki techniques(kamehameha, kaio-ken, instant transmission, ki-sensing, etc.)

That is why, with Goku and Vegeta being stripped of their Ki, and fighting against Batman and Captain America, Goku and Vegeta lose fairly quickly.


Combat in DBZ, relies on Ki and Ki techniques. Batman and Cap's skills does not.




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