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Nick Fury and Punisher vs Jason todd and batman


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#41 shellsbut

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Posted 28 June 2011 - 08:47 PM

Did Jason Todd somehow get switched with Dick Grayson somehow along the way or am I going crazy?



NAh I mixed em fixed it up now

for what I posted

Team BAtman ftw example 1
Team either example 2
Team Fury backed by resources. gov>batmans goodies

#42 thanosisawesome

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 06:27 AM

NAh I mixed em fixed it up now

for what I posted

Team BAtman ftw example 1
Team either example 2
Team Fury backed by resources. gov>batmans goodies


So, SHIELD beats Superman, who could subdue/kill every agent in SECONDS? SHIELD has no kryptonite. DOES Gov>Superman? Oh yeah. No. So, assuming you know who Superman and the Justice League are, Justice League would defeat SHIELD easily, Batman doesn't even need Batman incorporated.

#43 xman4life

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Posted 29 June 2011 - 11:25 PM

Ok now lets get back to the subject.
They can have their gadgets. In saying that nick fury has HELLA gadgets so please don't give me batman has better ones. Everything in the batcave and Nick has everything at shield. Frank has anything he can carry and same with Jason.
Now Jason Todd has some gadgets but mostly uses guns kevlar and gas. Frank has guns kevlar, knives, gas mask, gas and grenades. So again pretty even.

Skill-almost even. I will give it to batman and jason

Intellect/experience-TEAM ONE!!!!!!!!!! Nick fury is over a hundred years old and frank is like 60 both with extensive training and war time experience in espionage and guerilla tactics. Bats honestly has nothing on Nick in that department at ALL. and Jason doesn't hold a candle to the training and experience of frank.

Villains-Team 2 hands down.

Weapons-TEAM ONE. I mean come one Nick fury has Life Model Decoys. HUNDREDS of them.
Tactics-Even

So my analysis EVEN.

#44 thanosisawesome

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:27 AM

Ok now lets get back to the subject.
They can have their gadgets. In saying that nick fury has HELLA gadgets so please don't give me batman has better ones. Everything in the batcave and Nick has everything at shield. Frank has anything he can carry and same with Jason.
Now Jason Todd has some gadgets but mostly uses guns kevlar and gas. Frank has guns kevlar, knives, gas mask, gas and grenades. So again pretty even.

Skill-almost even. I will give it to batman and jason

Intellect/experience-TEAM ONE!!!!!!!!!! Nick fury is over a hundred years old and frank is like 60 both with extensive training and war time experience in espionage and guerilla tactics. Bats honestly has nothing on Nick in that department at ALL. and Jason doesn't hold a candle to the training and experience of frank.

Villains-Team 2 hands down.

Weapons-TEAM ONE. I mean come one Nick fury has Life Model Decoys. HUNDREDS of them.
Tactics-Even

So my analysis EVEN.


Except, Team 2 is magnitudes more skilled, and name 5 gadgets that Nick Fury carries everywhere. Uhhh, handgun and.......um..yeah. So, no. Punisher gets defeated easily by either Batman, and Nick Fury would last longer but be taken down.

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:54 AM

Except, Team 2 is magnitudes more skilled, and name 5 gadgets that Nick Fury carries everywhere. Uhhh, handgun and.......um..yeah. So, no. Punisher gets defeated easily by either Batman, and Nick Fury would last longer but be taken down.

I actually have to agree with you.

#46 xman4life

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:19 AM

Except, Team 2 is magnitudes more skilled, and name 5 gadgets that Nick Fury carries everywhere. Uhhh, handgun and.......um..yeah. So, no. Punisher gets defeated easily by either Batman, and Nick Fury would last longer but be taken down.

Hm let me see if I get this you say what gadgets he carries around AFTER i said he has access to all of shields tech. o ok I was just making sure. lol

I say tie. I'm not in favor for anyone but I have to tell the truth about each character. I said that batmans team has more skills(I'm sure you missed that in the SAME quote you used for me) lol but experience there is no earthly way you can compare batman to nick or even frank. Read on nick fury and see what gadgets he has at shield then you can make a comment like that sir.

#47 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:55 AM

Hm let me see if I get this you say what gadgets he carries around AFTER i said he has access to all of shields tech. o ok I was just making sure. lol

I say tie. I'm not in favor for anyone but I have to tell the truth about each character. I said that batmans team has more skills(I'm sure you missed that in the SAME quote you used for me) lol but experience there is no earthly way you can compare batman to nick or even frank. Read on nick fury and see what gadgets he has at shield then you can make a comment like that sir.

Just because those two have more WAR experience doesn't make them more experienced overall. In fact Batman and Todd are more experienced in these type of fights.

#48 thanosisawesome

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:36 AM

Hm let me see if I get this you say what gadgets he carries around AFTER i said he has access to all of shields tech. o ok I was just making sure. lol

I say tie. I'm not in favor for anyone but I have to tell the truth about each character. I said that batmans team has more skills(I'm sure you missed that in the SAME quote you used for me) lol but experience there is no earthly way you can compare batman to nick or even frank. Read on nick fury and see what gadgets he has at shield then you can make a comment like that sir.


Please enlighten me. Name 5 standard SHIELD gadgets that Nick has with him in a standard fight.

#49 Scar

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:19 PM

Actually, it is simply not as close as you are saying it is. In a street fight, h2h, Batman will annihilate Punisher every time with ease. All of those victories you stated are 100% PIS. And as dumb as it may be that Batman has mastered every martial art, it has happened. So, yeah. And you can take a character seriously that gets shot in the ribs with a shotgun and stabbed in the spine, and then throws someone out a window? Yeah. NVA? Is that a joke? NVA were poorly equipped and for the most part poorly trained.

Don't take this as me trying to insult you or anything, I just don't see how some tough guy with military training and some truing from Cap will beat Batman.


I'm sorry, but all I'm getting from this is major fanboyism and a complete lack of knowledge about military history and what goes into making a good soldier.

When it comes down to it the reason the NVA was able to hold out so long against the United States was not just numbers. It had to do with their cut and dry brutality, their ability to dig in like a tick, their knowledge of the terrain and the viciousness to do whatever it took to win the battle. They might not have been as "well trained" as the opposition, but that does not mean they weren't great fighters. In fact, they were some of the most tenacious ones that the world has ever seen. Despite their quality of arms (outside of the almighty AK-47), despite their inferiority in the area of a battlefield supplies and despite their whatsoever lack of any advantage in above the tree line they were able to win the war. Hell of a lot more impressive then Batman's usual list of no name canon fodder aren't they?

And Frank Castle isn't some military tough guy, he is *the* military tough guy. He was black ops during Nam, trained through multiple branches of the military to go where he shouldn't be (Cambodia for example) and do things that would never see the light of day. Aka, he was already well beyond the combat abilities of just about 99% of the people Batman comes across day to day before he even painted a white skull on his chest. Again, all he had to his name was standard military equipment and nobody with super powers waiting to jump in when he was in trouble.

Of course really we're just getting started. After his service in Vietnam and up until the time his family was killed in the crossfire of mafia fire, Castle was a special forces instructor back in the states. Then came central park and now we go to the next thirty or so years of doing the same damn thing Batman does but with a lack of a mercy and a complete lack of outside funding, a network of chums, friends in higher places.. really imagine that I'm talking about a videogame. Batman is easy mode and Punisher is throw your controller through a T.V screen hard.

And as far as martial arts ability, Castle is a highly skilled mixed martial artist and street fighting. In fact, he's damn near *lethal* and has proven himself on the level of a number of Marvel's best. He trains constantly and takes numerous "vacations" in northern New York to make sure he doesn't get fatigued and that he can work on the important stuff his war on crime is not improving him in. The man is a machine and the fact that he's able to do this at over sixty is a testament to just how damn *good* he is. If anything it paints him as *the* most overall skilled individual in Marvel Comics and it places him firmly on the same level as the Dark Knight himself.

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:33 PM

I'm sorry, but all I'm getting from this is major fanboyism and a complete lack of knowledge about military history and what goes into making a good soldier.

When it comes down to it the reason the NVA was able to hold out so long against the United States was not just numbers. It had to do with their cut and dry brutality, their ability to dig in like a tick, their knowledge of the terrain and the viciousness to do whatever it took to win the battle. They might not have been as "well trained" as the opposition, but that does not mean they weren't great fighters. In fact, they were some of the most tenacious ones that the world has ever seen. Despite their quality of arms (outside of the almighty AK-47), despite their inferiority in the area of a battlefield supplies and despite their whatsoever lack of any advantage in above the tree line they were able to win the war. Hell of a lot more impressive then Batman's usual list of no name canon fodder aren't they?

And Frank Castle isn't some military tough guy, he is *the* military tough guy. He was black ops during Nam, trained through multiple branches of the military to go where he shouldn't be (Cambodia for example) and do things that would never see the light of day. Aka, he was already well beyond the combat abilities of just about 99% of the people Batman comes across day to day before he even painted a white skull on his chest. Again, all he had to his name was standard military equipment and nobody with super powers waiting to jump in when he was in trouble.

Of course really we're just getting started. After his service in Vietnam and up until the time his family was killed in the crossfire of mafia fire, Castle was a special forces instructor back in the states. Then came central park and now we go to the next thirty or so years of doing the same damn thing Batman does but with a lack of a mercy and a complete lack of outside funding, a network of chums, friends in higher places.. really imagine that I'm talking about a videogame. Batman is easy mode and Punisher is throw your controller through a T.V screen hard.

And as far as martial arts ability, Castle is a highly skilled mixed martial artist and street fighting. In fact, he's damn near *lethal* and has proven himself on the level of a number of Marvel's best. He trains constantly and takes numerous "vacations" in northern New York to make sure he doesn't get fatigued and that he can work on the important stuff his war on crime is not improving him in. The man is a machine and the fact that he's able to do this at over sixty is a testament to just how damn *good* he is. If anything it paints him as *the* most overall skilled individual in Marvel Comics and it places him firmly on the same level as the Dark Knight himself.

Castle served 4 years in Nam as a basic soldier. After the war, he trained others and became black ops. His H2H skills are sub par compared to most comic fighters. Also his immense training is good but when it actually comes to skill, Batman has him surpassed in stealth, all physical attributes, intellect, and fighting experience. The only experience Castle has over Batman is full frontal war. Batman has been proven as a master strategist and has manipulated the entire gang scene against itself and had it all planned from the beginnig. Batman is proven superior to Castle in all ways. Matter of fact, Jason Todd is Punisher's equal and Batman made him look like a fool when they fought fo real.

#51 Scar

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 06:41 PM

Castle served 4 years in Nam as a basic soldier. After the war, he trained others and became black ops. His H2H skills are sub par compared to most comic fighters. Also his immense training is good but when it actually comes to skill, Batman has him surpassed in stealth, all physical attributes, intellect, and fighting experience. The only experience Castle has over Batman is full frontal war. Batman has been proven as a master strategist and has manipulated the entire gang scene against itself and had it all planned from the beginnig. Batman is proven superior to Castle in all ways. Matter of fact, Jason Todd is Punisher's equal and Batman made him look like a fool when they fought fo real.


Castle wasn't just basic infantry. Read the comics, not some stupid wiki.

#52 Lunacyde

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:22 PM

I'm sorry, but all I'm getting from this is major fanboyism and a complete lack of knowledge about military history and what goes into making a good soldier.

When it comes down to it the reason the NVA was able to hold out so long against the United States was not just numbers. It had to do with their cut and dry brutality, their ability to dig in like a tick, their knowledge of the terrain and the viciousness to do whatever it took to win the battle. They might not have been as "well trained" as the opposition, but that does not mean they weren't great fighters. In fact, they were some of the most tenacious ones that the world has ever seen. Despite their quality of arms (outside of the almighty AK-47), despite their inferiority in the area of a battlefield supplies and despite their whatsoever lack of any advantage in above the tree line they were able to win the war. Hell of a lot more impressive then Batman's usual list of no name canon fodder aren't they?

And Frank Castle isn't some military tough guy, he is *the* military tough guy. He was black ops during Nam, trained through multiple branches of the military to go where he shouldn't be (Cambodia for example) and do things that would never see the light of day. Aka, he was already well beyond the combat abilities of just about 99% of the people Batman comes across day to day before he even painted a white skull on his chest. Again, all he had to his name was standard military equipment and nobody with super powers waiting to jump in when he was in trouble.

Of course really we're just getting started. After his service in Vietnam and up until the time his family was killed in the crossfire of mafia fire, Castle was a special forces instructor back in the states. Then came central park and now we go to the next thirty or so years of doing the same damn thing Batman does but with a lack of a mercy and a complete lack of outside funding, a network of chums, friends in higher places.. really imagine that I'm talking about a videogame. Batman is easy mode and Punisher is throw your controller through a T.V screen hard.

And as far as martial arts ability, Castle is a highly skilled mixed martial artist and street fighting. In fact, he's damn near *lethal* and has proven himself on the level of a number of Marvel's best. He trains constantly and takes numerous "vacations" in northern New York to make sure he doesn't get fatigued and that he can work on the important stuff his war on crime is not improving him in. The man is a machine and the fact that he's able to do this at over sixty is a testament to just how damn *good* he is. If anything it paints him as *the* most overall skilled individual in Marvel Comics and it places him firmly on the same level as the Dark Knight himself.


You certainly know how to debate and make a point, I'll give you that Skaar. This is well-written and well thought out. However it does foray into biased territory, thought it certainly stops short of outright fanboyism.

Fact is although Frank is a damn tough S.O.B. and highly skilled in multiple areas, he is not *the* most skilled individual in Marvel Comics, or DC for that matter. He's lost to numerous opponents in H2H, though he rarely engages in pure matches of H2H combat. Daredevil, Deadpool, Captain America, Daken, Deathlok and Kingpin among others have all defeated him. heck, Frank has a hard time with Moon Knight.

Furthermore you aren't even taking into effect other skill sets. Batman is a better detective, escape artist, techie, scientist, and actor/master of disguise. He is equally skilled it tactics, infiltration, and stealth. Frank has the edge in demolitions, weapons expertise, and marksmanship.

You mention a constant training regimen as if Batman hasn't been one of the best trained and hardest working humans in comics for decades. You mention it as if Batman hasn't reached the peak of human fitness and stayed there over decades of service through nothing more than hard work and discipline.

If you really want to make comparisons in "ease" how about the fact that Batman refuses to use lethal force. Do you realize how much easier his life would be if he just shot every criminal in the head that he came across? Using smoke grenades and batarangs to subdue opponents, while making sure you don't seriously injure them is much more difficult then going in and capping or blowing up every poor sucker you come across. Batman has more discipline in that he follows a strict code and he will not break that code. You act as if Batman couldn't be "lethal" if he wanted to. The point is that he CHOOSES not to kill.

#53 Scar

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 07:45 PM

You certainly know how to debate and make a point, I'll give you that Skaar. This is well-written and well thought out. However it does foray into biased territory, thought it certainly stops short of outright fanboyism.

Fact is although Frank is a damn tough S.O.B. and highly skilled in multiple areas, he is not *the* most skilled individual in Marvel Comics, or DC for that matter. He's lost to numerous opponents in H2H, though he rarely engages in pure matches of H2H combat. Daredevil, Deadpool, Captain America, Daken, Deathlok and Kingpin among others have all defeated him. heck, Frank has a hard time with Moon Knight.

The same can be said for Batman. Heck, in the majority of fights with super powered enemies he needs to have a certain edge with his gadgets. Also, there have been a number of occasions where Frank has taken on and even defeated characters like Wolverine and Daredevil up close and personal.. and even won by using the environment to his advantage. Also, as far as a skill set goes Castle is pretty much near the top for Marvel. He's able to engage in close quarters combat as well as any of the non powered individuals in Marvel combats. Also, when I say close quarters combat I mean actually out and out melee, I don't mean just basic hand to hand. Castle isn't as superb a martial artist as Batman by *any* means, but his innate ability to use the environment around him and his skill in the use of close quarter weaponry elevate his ability as a fighter into Batman's territory.

Furthermore you aren't even taking into effect other skill sets. Batman is a better detective, escape artist, techie, scientist, and actor/master of disguise. He is equally skilled it tactics, infiltration, and stealth. Frank has the edge in demolitions, weapons expertise, and marksmanship. I never said he wasn't. The prior posts whole goal was not to paint a picture of Castle as being *better* then Batman. It was to explain why he's on Bruce's level and not far below it.

You mention a constant training regimen as if Batman hasn't been one of the best trained and hardest working humans in comics for decades. You mention it as if Batman hasn't reached the peak of human fitness and stayed there over decades of service through nothing more than hard work and discipline. I never meant it in that manner. What I'm saying is that Castle has done the same sort of thing through out his life. Again, I'm not trying to argue that Castle is *better* then Batman. I'm trying to make a point that they are on equal footing.

If you really want to make comparisons in "ease" how about the fact that Batman refuses to use lethal force. Do you realize how much easier his life would be if he just shot every criminal in the head that he came across? Using smoke grenades and batarangs to subdue opponents, while making sure you don't seriously injure them is much more difficult then going in and capping or blowing up every poor sucker you come across. Batman has more discipline in that he follows a strict code and he will not break that code. You act as if Batman couldn't be "lethal" if he wanted to. The point is that he CHOOSES not to kill.

I'm going to have to accept responsibility for this. You're right, I really wasn't thinking straight at all when I said that. It is easier to use gunfire to solve your problems then it is to use the items that Batman is armed with. However, I'm still going to maintain my position that they are still balanced by the fact that Bruce has much more at his disposal to work with then Castle. They're very similar in multiple aspects, outside of different backgrounds and their manner of dealing with crime. As far as bias goes I'm actually quite fond of both Bruce and Frank. Anyway, thank you for giving me a wonderful counter argument.

P.S, I also saw the work you posted on FPL and it's given me another reason to wish I had the time for that portion of the Electric Ferret.



#54 Lunacyde

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:29 PM

It seems we agree more than we initially thought. Perhaps I was a little rash with a few of my accusations and points as well. I too enjoy both characters, though I prefer Bruce slightly. I agree that Frank is on equal footing considering his weaponry and use of environment.

In order to save myself a lot of pointless typing I'm going to agree on all points. This debate was certainly better than most I've been in here. Thanks for the compliment.

#55 Scar

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 08:41 PM

It seems we agree more than we initially thought. Perhaps I was a little rash with a few of my accusations and points as well. I too enjoy both characters, though I prefer Bruce slightly. I agree that Frank is on equal footing considering his weaponry and use of environment.

In order to save myself a lot of pointless typing I'm going to agree on all points. This debate was certainly better than most I've been in here. Thanks for the compliment.


Same and yeah, it's nice to find somebody that puts effort into their debates. I usually don't jump in on these things that much since most of the characters that are used I know next to nothing about.

Though really I think that if this encounter were to really happen the only logical result would be Batman taking down Fury only to realize that Todd and Castle have joined forces and are already making the Gotham criminal fraternity's life a living hell.

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:01 PM

Batman is a better detective, escape artist, techie, scientist, and actor/master of disguise. He is equally skilled it tactics, infiltration, and stealth.

I really don't see how any of these can help him if he doesn't have prep. Maybe stealth might help, but none of the others. That said, I still stand by what I have previously said, which is Batman and Todd winning, but just barely.

#57 Scar

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:06 PM

I really don't see how any of these can help him if he doesn't have prep. Maybe stealth might help, but none of the others. That said, I still stand by what I have previously said, which is Batman and Todd winning, but just barely.


You can think tactically on the go, it just requires (1) intelligence, (2) experience and (3) being able to remain calm and focused in an intense situation.

Batman easily has all three in the bag. It's one of the reasons that people like him and Frank are able to keep up with some of the people they do.

#58 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:34 PM

Same and yeah, it's nice to find somebody that puts effort into their debates. I usually don't jump in on these things that much since most of the characters that are used I know next to nothing about.

Though really I think that if this encounter were to really happen the only logical result would be Batman taking down Fury only to realize that Todd and Castle have joined forces and are already making the Gotham criminal fraternity's life a living hell.

Well do you think Frank and Todd can co-exsist? I could see Frank killing Todd due to his mental instability.

#59 Lunacyde

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 09:51 PM

Same and yeah, it's nice to find somebody that puts effort into their debates. I usually don't jump in on these things that much since most of the characters that are used I know next to nothing about.

Though really I think that if this encounter were to really happen the only logical result would be Batman taking down Fury only to realize that Todd and Castle have joined forces and are already making the Gotham criminal fraternity's life a living hell.


It's an interesting prospect. Not sure if Frank would team up with him looking at him as a like-minded man with similar tactics, or if he'd see him as a criminal himself.

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Posted 30 June 2011 - 10:07 PM

It's an interesting prospect. Not sure if Frank would team up with him looking at him as a like-minded man with similar tactics, or if he'd see him as a criminal himself.

If Punisher does see him as just another criminal, then I would if immediately lost all respect for the character. He's just like Jason, so he'd be a HUGE hypocrite to do that. But, I really don't think he would do that.




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