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The Imperium of Man (pre-Horus Heresy) vs Galactic Empire (at its peak)


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#121 ricrery

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 01:27 AM

Lol, ISD's don't do petatons, they do 144 teratons as I have proven.

#122 Skirmisher

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 01:56 AM

Bullshit, we just had this discussion. The Unknown Regions

I ain't talking about the UR, the Outer Rim Territories had to communicate using weak subspace relays for inter sector communication, and only several sectors out that way actually got any sort of Holonet. But still that leaves, the UR, Wild Space, The Tingle Arm, and the vast majority of the Outer Rim without Holonet...


It says "expnsive in comparison to common droids" which doesn't say much. This is Star Wars, where droids are found almost on every single planet, even on the shitholes like Tatooine. Also, you are getting the "probe droids only scout planets" from The Empire Strikes Back, where Vader employs thousands of probe droids across the galaxy, to find one Rebel base. That shoots yourself in the foot, if thousands of them can be spent just to find one place.

A thousand of them can be sent out and recovered many, many times since they aren't going to be going into uncharted space. The SWG has all of it's Hyperlanes charted, to make travel that much easier. Also, the small droid may be "expensive in comparison to common droids" but think about the pod that carries it to the planet that it lands on. As well, if the GE were to use them to Chart space lanes, then they would have to have far greater sensors than are currently equipped, so that they can scan systems, and not just for potentially habitable planets that the IOM could be using, but for stellar anomalies and even Deep Space anomalies that could wreak larger warships of the GE.


Found a better quote here.
"The average SECTGRU is explicitly stated to �€œcontain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships�€�" The reference is the Imperial Soucebook: Second Edition

Fighters and gunboats are not considered ships, they are considered... well fighters and gunboats.

Also:
"At its peak, it fielded millions of warships, logistics vessels and fighters, maintaining Imperial control throughout the galaxy."

This makes sense with the figure above:
2,400 + 1,600 * 1,001 (the smallest number that can be considered "thousands") = 4,004,000 ships.

That quote seems flawed... a Sector Group has at least 2,400 ships... but only 1% are Star Destroyers... but wait it also has 1600 more ships? Shouldn't it have said that a Sector Group has at leas 4000 ships and that of them only 24 are Star Destroyers? This means that the rest of the ranks would have to be filled out with Troop Transports, Frigates, and Cruisers, and even antiquated Dreadnaughts... Since there are only 24 Star Destroyers that extra compliment of ships can't contain any Gladiator-class Star Destroyers, Imperial I or II-class Star Destroyers, Interdictor Star Destroyers, Main communications ships, Super Star Destroyers, Tector-class Star Destroyers, Venator-class Star Destroyers, or the Victory I and II-class Star Destroyers...


Lol, ISD's don't do petatons, they do 144 teratons as I have proven.

Technically their Reactors put out about a petaton+ of energy, and if they're anything like a "Warship" of Star Wars then it could theoretically funnel all of that power through it's weapons to deliver a little more than a Petaton per second... But what happens when there's return fire? They die like Swiss Cheese at a mouse convention, because all that Power isn't going to shields, and they can't dodge any incoming fire since they would only be coasting on forward momentum, which would make it really easy to calculate a target lock.

#123 Skirmisher

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 02:34 AM

And ISDs are easily petaton firepower, considering the older Venators are 800+ teratons. Also, did they USE that teraton bomb? They have access to them, but did it use it?

Calcs for this.

I think I proved your first point in my last post... as for your second point, yes they had them and did use them, that's how they were able to wipe out a Hive City. They snuck under it's shields and set the bomb off. For your third point, here to get a heat wash like was described, out to 3000 kilometers you need middle range Gigatons. Since this was under the Shield at the time, the Blast was snuffed in power down to only that middle range Gigaton blast.


No, I'm meant in that the IoM would never be able to attack GE ships in any territory of their choosing. Of course the GE and the IoM would end up fighting, but the GE can, if necessary, get out of a fight it can't win, and show up attacking on the other side of the IoM territory before the IoM can even recall its ships.

Ok, and when the Emperors ships arrive above Corescant the GE will just tuck tail and run leaving the hundreds of trillions of people, and possibly the Emperor himself stranded.


Thats why they could simply collect intel before attacking. You know, during that whole year that you mentioned the IoM needing to get the soldiers together.

Yet as I have stated before, there is Already a Vast Army and Navy Already in Available to Crusade into the SWG. All the EOM has to do is say to his sons "Look, no more expansion right now, we have to deal with these up star punks. So I need half of you to come with me to crush them and the other half stay behind to defend and raise more forces." That's just the forces of the Space Marines, and there is still the actual Imperial Navy that could stay behind and help the other half of the Space Marine Grand Army defend the MWG.


"Emperors are very rare"
Why are you comparing a very rare heavy assault vehicle to a much smaller vehicle from SW?

Also, it can defeat ships? Are you sure that is what "planetary defense installation" implies? (As in, you sure those installations fire on ships, or are simply giant fortresses where all the PDF forces can fight from?)

For your first point, here then The Warhound Scout Titan, the most common and smallest of titans. It is usually armed with a Plasma Blastgun, wich acts as both an anti-infantry and anti-superheavy vehicle gun. As well as the Vulcan Mega-bolter, which is a doubled, up-scaled version of this weapon and is designed specifically to decimate infantry divisions. One of these could easily annihilate whole squadrons of AT-ST's (it's imperial counterpart) and even rake in a good kill count of AT-AT's.


When did you prove this?

They had a large turning radius, (though probably because they could go up to 160 kph at top speed?), but where are you getting this bad design/fall apart easily from?

They were also phased out mainly because vehicles were made smaller and sleeker, probably due to the changing form of warfare (all out war during the Clone Wars to urban combat during the Galactic Civil War).

You seemed to have snipped the quote out... Here it is again.

"Day 17: Forward drive shaft on Juggernaut-11 has snapped. Requesting replacement drive shaft."
"Day 22: Resubmitting request for replacement drive shaft."
"Day 38: Drive shaft still has not arrived. Please advise."
"Day 50: Awaiting drive shaft."
"Day 123: Awaiting drive shaft."
―Excerpt from log of Imperial machinist stationed on Dathomi

As you can see, even after 123 days of waiting for a replacement drive shaft, one had not come in.

#124 Skirmisher

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 02:52 AM

Or, in this scenario, the SW humans don't have a Warp presence. <_<

You don't have to have a warp presence to be affected or read by a psyker. Librarians can still crush Tau with their minds and they don't have a Warp Presence.


And the GE bases can be on the other side of the galaxy. The IoM could take years getting there.
And again, the IoM would take months or years getting across their own galaxy, and the same amount getting across the SW galaxy.

Second point: The IOM is spread across the whole galaxy, sure it would take a ship going from one end to the other a year or more, but not the ships already out there. If a GE base were placed anywhere it would probably be within a few hundred lightyears of MWG Humanity.


Also, the IoM would never get into the SW galaxy, as the GE would be in the Milky Way first, attacking the IoM first, the IoM can't go and attack before it can stick around to secure its own place first.

As I have said, it would take the GE about a year to start mobilizing a good sized force, well before that, the Emperor and half the Space Marine Legions with all the ships that belong to those Legions, as well as Adeptus Macahnicus Tech Scavenging forces would be upon the SWG. Sure the GE could launch an attack Right away, but they'd only have a few thousand Star Destroyers, and a few million gnats... I mean Troop Transports, Frigates, Cruisers, and Dreadnaughts


Except that ISDs are easily in the petaton range, with bigger verions (Tectors probably) getting even higher. ISDs are also some of the smaller ships in the Imperial Navy.

ISD's could barely push 1+ petaton firepower and only if it diverted ALL of it's power to weapons... Imperium Ships are definatly in the Petatons range with all of their other systems intact. As for the ISD's being the smallest ships in the Navy... Ruinus, man you are slipping... The ISD is the mainstay of the Imperial Fleet (stated by that page you gave for the size of an Imperial Sector group), and is more than a Km and a half in length, this dwarfs all the other Star Destroyer classes except for the Super Classes... As well the Tector class was Just as big and just as powerful as the ISD, it just dropped it's fighter bays for more armour...

#125 Ruinus

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 06:06 PM

Firepower: How the hell do Venators do 700 teratons? It's been stated that older ships did FLUXING 200 GIGATONS WITH EACH TURBOLASER.


Yes, the Acclamator-class assault ship had cannons that fired 200 gigatons per shot.

Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections
Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)
Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)
Sublight acceleration: 3500G
Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)
Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak
Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max

The, Venator-class Star Destroyer on the other hand:
"As a true warship, the Venator-class Star Destroyer could divert almost all of its reactor output to its heavy turbolasers when needed."

Venator's Power output Peak: 3,6 × 1024 W[1]
So:

3.60E+24/4.18E+15 = 8.60E+08 = 860 teratons.

#126 ricrery

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 06:47 PM

Yes, the Acclamator-class assault ship had cannons that fired 200 gigatons per shot.

Star Wars Episode II Incredible Cross-Sections
Light guns: 300 million GW (6 megatons per shot, 24 guns, assume 1 shot every 2 seconds for time-averaged power output rather than peak output)
Heavy guns: 2.4 million megatons (200 gigatons per shot from each turret, 12 turrets)
Sublight acceleration: 3500G
Operational range: 250,000 light-years (before refueling)
Shield heat dissipation: 70 trillion GW peak
Reactor power: 200 trillion GW max

The, Venator-class Star Destroyer on the other hand:
"As a true warship, the Venator-class Star Destroyer could divert almost all of its reactor output to its heavy turbolasers when needed."

Venator's Power output Peak: 3,6 × 1024 W[1]
So:

3.60E+24/4.18E+15 = 8.60E+08 = 860 teratons.



Oh for crying out loud! The ISD is x10 more stronger than the Acclamator, so how is the Venator doing 860 teratons?

#127 Ruinus

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 08:56 PM

Oh for crying out loud! The ISD is x10 more stronger than the Acclamator, so how is the Venator doing 860 teratons?


Whoever told you that is wrong, it's as simple as that.

EDIT: Seriously, I just showed you how its doing that amount of damage (In fact, I think I've done this before in this very thread) and you still don't think it can pull 860 teratons? Also, this is just a Venator, and I'm looking around for calcs for Imperators.

#128 ricrery

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 09:12 PM

Whoever told you that is wrong, it's as simple as that.



No, it's true. If you put in the Acclamators heavy turblolasers and all other turbolasers and combined them and did to the ISD's, the ISD would be x10 more stronger. Besides without their shields they are NOTHING. So those Imperium torpedos will be the end of the ISD's right?

#129 Ruinus

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 09:21 PM

No, it's true. If you put in the Acclamators heavy turblolasers and all other turbolasers and combined them and did to the ISD's, the ISD would be x10 more stronger.


That's a pretty odd method for figuring out their firepower, considering that the bigger SDs have bigger reactors, and hence can field more firepower. Also, the heavy cannons on the Acclamators are considered medium cannons on bigger ships.

Besides without their shields they are NOTHING. So those Imperium torpedos will be the end of the ISD's right?


Yeah, an unshielded ship will be destroyed pretty fast.
You sure won that round.

#130 ricrery

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 10:21 PM

Well some of their torpedoes do 2.9 petatons which would one shot the ships completely, but let's not get to that.

#131 Ruinus

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 11:10 PM

I like how me and Skirmisher are like almost the only people who bother to source their arguments. It is a load of fun, and not annoying at all. <_<

#132 ricrery

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 11:53 PM

I like how me and Skirmisher are like almost the only people who bother to source their arguments. It is a load of fun, and not annoying at all. <_<



It's fun ignoring the Psyker > Jedi thing huh? The GEoM would massacre Ragnos and Revan, but if only they were in this fight!

#133 Ruinus

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 01:35 AM

It's fun ignoring the Psyker > Jedi thing huh? The GEoM would massacre Ragnos and Revan, but if only they were in this fight!


So, a sidestep? I point out you don't source your arguments, so you, instead of sourcing this petaton missile claim, simply repeat something else you've said, which also didn't have any source? <_<

Also, I'm ignoring the Psyker/Jedi thing, because the Jedi aren't used by the Empire and Ragnos and Revan aren't even alive by this time. So yeah.

In fact, most of this battle is actually irrelevant. The only things that actually matter are:
How fast the GE can find the IoM's capital.
How fast the GE can map a route there.

After that, the Death Star shows up, blows up Terra, and then leaves.

#134 Skirmisher

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 02:41 AM

In fact, most of this battle is actually irrelevant. The only things that actually matter are:
How fast the GE can find the IoM's capital.
How fast the GE can map a route there.

After that, the Death Star shows up, blows up Terra, and then leaves.

I'm not thinking so, If the Death Star were to arrive at Holy Terra, then it would be greeted by Battlefleet Solar... Which based on other Battle Fleets would number at 50-75 Crusiers and Battleships, and 125-150 Escorts... If it were to arrive in the Sol system, it would be bombarded to slag by the defense fleet stationed there, and any attempt to destroy Holy Terra would probably be intercepted by a daring and suicidal ship, taking the "Bullet" for the planet.


Besides, the loss of Holy Terra wouldn't do anything to the IOM. The Emperor is alive and on the move commanding the forces of the IOM. He is the Authority, he is the Leadership, and in the scenario that I put forward, he would give the title of Warmaster to... well, probably Horus who would be next in command, below him are the other 20 Primarchs who command the legions. From there command branches out to various Chapter Masters, Lord Admirals and Sector Governors...

Loosing Terra would be a very sad thing, but not the total, destabilizing, knock down punch that you seem to think. In fact it would probably do quite the opposite that you think, with the majority of Human in the MYG fighting to the Last with a deadly fervor the likes never seen before...

#135 Ruinus

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 02:04 PM

I'm not thinking so, If the Death Star were to arrive at Holy Terra, then it would be greeted by Battlefleet Solar... Which based on other Battle Fleets would number at 50-75 Crusiers and Battleships, and 125-150 Escorts... If it were to arrive in the Sol system, it would be bombarded to slag by the defense fleet stationed there, and any attempt to destroy Holy Terra would probably be intercepted by a daring and suicidal ship, taking the "Bullet" for the planet.


And the ship would simply be washed away by the superlaser, it wouldn't absorbe the entire bullet and save Terra. In fact, with the sheer amount of energy in that superlaser blast, any ship caught in its way would be destroyed instantely.

The Death Star has enough firepower to fight off fleets of ships, and it could simply have a large number of escorts. In fact, a fleet could jump in from one side of the star system, cause a diversion with the defensive fleet, and the Death Star shows up on the other side, and destroyes Terra, and maybe Mars if it gets the chance.

It would be a crippling blow if the Emperor is there at the time, and even if he isn't there are still other organizations who have their HQ there. The loss of say, the Administratum would severely mess up the Imperium.

#136 Ruinus

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 02:33 PM

I was simply stating that the GE would have to scout out new hyperspace lanes within the MWG in order to get ANYWHERE, and that such a task is reported to be Incredibly Dangerous. This would mean that yes I would argue that it would take billions of Probe Droids to chart only a very few space lanes, but not to the degree of being Everywhere in the MW galaxy within a day or two...


And as I said, it is a dangerous task for living creatures, no one gives a care if a droid smashes itself into a planet. And again, it wouldn't matter if it took billions of probe droids, the GE has the resources to spam that. And also, it wouldn't matter if it took 3 days, or 4, or 5, or a week, to scout any major routes, that is STILL faster than the IoM can respond to. The GE will simply be able to do everything faster than the IoM.

What about Food? The IOM has whole planets dedicated to just the production of Food stuffs for it's troops and ship crews, yet I haven't heard of any Star Wars agri-worlds.


Agriworld

Yet still, droids are sub par tacticians and strategists... and if they aren't then the GE runs the gambit of having a Droid rebellion...

The simple fact though is that it would take the GE a Year in the LEAST to start it's war machine. With New Recruits, Training, Spartii Clones a Year or Madness, Droids kept incompetent to prevent rebellion... Before even they get to the field of battle the God Emperor of Mankind and ten of his 21 sons, commanding 11 legions of Space Marines would arrive in the Star Wars Galaxy and start Stomping. I estimate their strength at a quarter million Space Marines (based on my previous statments), 6000+ Battlebarges (it is common for a 1000 SM Chapter to have three, so that would be 3/1000 SMs, referenced on the Battlebarge background in the Gothic rule book), Roughly four times that in Strike Cruisers for 24,000 (since going by points roughly four Cruisers can be bought for the same points of a BB), and probably several escorts per Strike Cruiser, for 140,000 (assuming two small squadrons per Cruiser). Not to mention the Adeptus Machanicus Fleets that would haul the titans and various personnel that the Emperor would think to bring along to "recover" lost technology...

No, the GE would first have to spend the time and energy plotting Hyperspace lanes in the MWG. Meanwhile the IOM has free reign (albeit relatively slow free reign) within the SWG, not needing hyperspace lanes to jet from sector to sector.


Prove that it would take the GE at least a year to do this. New high quality CLONES could take a year to produce, and recruits too, but not droids, or droid controlled ships.

Scroll down 7 paragraphs. According to that site, the standard Imperial Sectrogroup can carry about 3 to 4 million soldiers. Your quarter million Space Marines are outnumbered by a wide margin.

Also, considering how slow IoM ships take to get anywhere, prove that it would take the IoM a year to reach the SW galaxy, and then show how they are able to get anywhere within that galaxy since THEY ALSO DON"T HAVE MAPS, and their scouting methods are SLOWER.

No, the IoM does not have free reign in the SW galaxy, because again:
The GE has faster FTL drives (via 1 day long galactic travel)
The GE has faster scouting methods (via droid spam)


So the GE can get to the MW galaxy faster, than the IoM can get to the SW galaxy. IN effect, your idea that the IoM would be rampaging across the SW galaxy does not occur.

Seriously, you seem to want the IoM to get everywhere incredibly fast, yet ignore your own past claims of the IoM taking a year to even assemble the required soldiers, the time it would take to get these soldiers across their own galaxy to the wormhole that connects both galaxies (I'm assuming a wormhole connects both galaxies) and then the extra time required to map out the SW galaxy (the OP itself states it would take them months to get anywhere).

The OP says
"The Imperium has to wait months to get anywhere in the Star Wars Galaxy. Therefor the Galactic Empire can setup defenses with no problems."

So tell me Skirmisher, once you take all this into account, why do you still assume the GE will be the ones who are unprepared?

Here we see a Battle Barges bombardment Cannons attack after less than 20 seconds of bombardment. However note that the Fireball achieved this size roughly several seconds into the bombardment before it sunk into the planet. The Fireball easily stretches out to a rough estimate of 4000 kilometers. Using this calculator we see that at Minimum this would be 8 Petatons, meaning that it would be quite easy for a Battle Barge to have a firepower output of around 1 petaton per second with Bombardment Cannons alone. Note that this is in addition to supporting Shields and Similar Strength weapons batteries on both sides of the ship. This would mean that it could fight with Peak shields pumping out up to 2 petatons per second in battle.


Are you taking into account that every shot does not make a giant fireball?

video
Every single shot does not make a giant fireball (something that should happen), and for some reason, the fireball only explodes after all the shots have hit. Bascially, I'm saying, are those visual reliable?

(I don't know if I can respond to the rest, so could you please hold off until I put in the rest of the responses? Thanks.)

#137 ricrery

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 10:06 PM

Didn't they have Blackstone Fortresses during the AoS? If so the Death Star is MASSACRED before it can do anything. What if the Mechanicus had a temptation to learn about Eldar technology and added it to their fleets? Oh god, that would be scary. They can't stand up to the fleet... an asteroid can destroy a ISD, a Imperial Ironclad is many times more durable than ISD it isn't funny. What are they going to do with the Psyker Primarchs besides go crazy and have their heads asploadin'? Besides Ragnos WAS a Dark JEDI, too bad he isn't around. The God Emperor can make stars go supernova rather easily. And you have no idea why going to Terra while the Emperor is there is a bad idea, cause Palpy and the DS's crew will all die.

#138 Ruinus

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Posted 01 October 2009 - 11:36 PM

Didn't they have Blackstone Fortresses during the AoS? If so the Death Star is MASSACRED before it can do anything.


Since apparently you can't be bothered to back up your claims, I looked this up for you, since I wanted to know what exactly you were talking about.Blackstone Fortresses
So they are superbadass fortresses, that the Imperium didn't know how to use. They were simply plastered on with guns and fighter bays. The ones in Imperium custody were destroyed, and Abaddon took the other two.

<_<

What if the Mechanicus had a temptation to learn about Eldar technology and added it to their fleets? Oh god, that would be scary.


What if the Mechanicus suddenly had a deus ex machina motivation to do something they've never done before, and suddenly gain super intelligence, and learn all of Eldar technology to be able to apply it to their own ships, and suddenly gain negative time factories to pump out this amazingly superfast reverse engineered technology? Oh god, that would be ridiculous.

They can't stand up to the fleet... an asteroid can destroy a ISD,


Right, a giant asteroid destroying the bridge tower, after the ship has been in the asteroid field for an unknown amount of time, and took an unknown amount of asteroid impacts clearly shows that any and all asteroids destroy ISDs.

The God Emperor can make stars go supernova rather easily. And you have no idea why going to Terra while the Emperor is there is a bad idea, cause Palpy and the DS's crew will all die.


Prove this supernova claim, since I don't even pay attention to claims that go unsourced.
Also LOL at your second claim, the DS shows up instantely and the GEoM suddenly instantly kills them all. Why didn't he ever do this to anyone else?

#139 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 October 2009 - 05:20 PM

I don't know if I can respond to the rest, so could you please hold off until I put in the rest of the responses? Thanks.

Can do, and I'm glade to see this topic continuing again.

#140 ricrery

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Posted 03 October 2009 - 12:03 AM

What? They used them as stations. Besides Psykers can ACCIDENTLY destroy planets depending on their level, and the GEoM is the strongest one of all, I've heard that the GEoM once froze time in the galaxy, but I don't believe it.




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