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The Imperium of Man (pre-Horus Heresy) vs Galactic Empire (at its peak)


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#101 Skirmisher

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 12:50 AM

Hey Ruinus, why don't we just go back to the point where we actually knew where we stood?

My stance was from the Height of the Great Crusade, with the Legions of Space Marines at their strongest, most of Humanity rallied behind the Emperor and etc. etc...

I believe your stance was from the Height of Power for the Imperial Era Galactic Empire, I'm guessing just before Endor.


Now that we have these fixed "goal posts" this thing can actually move forward again! Feel free to debate even this post if you want, because before we can move forward, we need clear battle lines!

#102 Ruinus

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:16 PM

Now that we have these fixed "goal posts" this thing can actually move forward again! Feel free to debate even this post if you want, because before we can move forward, we need clear battle lines!


Sounds good enough for me, and since I believe I posted last the ball is in your court. A notice though, I probably wont respond until Monday to anything you post, as I may have plans for the weekend.

#103 Skirmisher

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:26 AM

Ok, I think I've got all of my points in order. I also started to write my parts in from the bottom up so there might be some minor anomalies...


No comprimise is needed.

Then you win this point… Frankly the reason that I hate this one point is that if it were true, then it would mean that almost everything else within Star Wars would have been PIS. It would mean that all the additional stories (some of which are actually good) are built on PIS.

I can’t respect a Universe that is built on PIS.

However, note that all of this very fast travel is only possible due to very well mapped Hyperspace lanes. Highways through space that were scouted millennia ago. The simple fact is that even with billions of probe droids “Scouting new hyperspace routes [is] an incredibly dangerous task” A job made even more dangerous by the simple fact that the 40K Galaxy is many, many times more dangerous than the Star Wars Galaxy. It’s a Galaxy filled with Death and Danger the likes that anything in Star Wars has only dreamed about in their worst nightmares. You think the Rancor and the Acklay are bad? They would be like Goldfish on a lot of unclaimed worlds. Even the very fabric of space consorts to kill, with Warp Storms just developing out of the Blue to swallow up whole systems or even whole sectors of space for years at a time.


This would never happen then. While the IoM is taking a decade to do all this, the GE has already built up billions of ships (should I post the ship construction calc?), reached the Milky Way galaxy, mapped it, and began attacking. The IoM then has to shift to defensive measures while the GE continous to churn out ships and attack.

That is why I think you are not understanding why the FTL on the GE side makes this a win for them. While the GE can reach the Milky Way galaxy in a what, 2-3 days? (probably faster, considering the SW galaxy is 20,000 light years wider than ours) while the IoM takes months. This means that the GE can attack first, establish bases in the MW first, have more prep time to gether information, get star maps, and plan attacks.

This also means that the GE can send back communications to the SW galaxy faster, ordering more equipment, ships, men, whatever.

This ALSO means that they can pick undefended worlds to attack, and then leave before any form of retalation arrives.

Simply put, your plans for the IoM attacking and burning SW worlds never happens, because they don't have the time to be able to reach the SW galaxy.

There are some problems with your hypothesis though. First, even though they had the resources to build a Death Star, it doesn’t mean that they could instantly repurpose those construction droids into building Stardestroyers. Secondly these ships need crews, only so many people are actually in the Imperial Navy. The result of expanding this branch by many millions of times would mean that any enlisted personnel prior to the expansion would automatically be made a into admirals due to having even an ounce of Experience. But your claim is that they could use Cloning… Yes Cloning solve everything right? Except the fact that Kamino Cloning takes 10 years and Spaarti Cloning results in poor quality clones (compared to Kamino Clones) that have a possibility of going mad.

Either your ships are commanded by recruits, you wait a decade for the better ones to grow, all your ships are run by a batch of people that just might go insane, or you have some combination of the three…

Lovely navy you got there.

Then there’s the fact that the IOM doesn’t have to be forced into any sort of situation. They already have Imperial Navy Fleets to cover all the sectors that the IOM controls in addition to the Space Marine fleets that shuttle the vast Legions of super soldiers across the void. Like I said before, the Emperor himself with maybe Half of his Legions would attack the Star Wars Galaxy in a New Crusade. To gather the Fighting Men of the Imperium would take years, but the first action would be seen within a couple weeks, as world after world falls to the Emperor and his legions.

After the Emperor himself enters the Star Wars Galaxy he would be sure to see the trouble that the GE’s warmachine would cause if left unattended, well in advance of any sort of problem through the use of Precognition. Within a year or two the major ship building facilities of the GE would have been attacked and reduced to scattered derbies. GE technology would then be sent back to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars to assess the feasibility of adapting it to the Imperiums vessels. Within the Decade that the GE takes to either Grow or train it’s troops at least half the vessels of the Imperuims Navy would be retrofitted with Hyperdrives in addition to their Warp Drives.

Last point, where did you get the idea that any world of actual importance to the IOM is undefended? Any world that actually produces something of actual value to the IOM is very likely to be defended in some way on a scale of its importance. The undefended worlds of the IOM that the GE could attack would be the small, resource poor, and backwater worlds that would offer very little actual strategic gain. You want to knock over a Tanith? Go ahead, they only export wood, and can only be expected to found no more than Three regiments of troops… Compare that to places Like Cadia, which trains from birth regiments of soldiers and Elite Stormtroopers that they literally export to other sectors of the Galaxy.


Hyperwave
Hypercomm

Why would the jumps be rarely successfull? Simply scan out to maximum range, jump ahead, scan and repeat.

Prove these are costly and specialized. The probe droid page mentions nothing of the sort.
I want sources, I want quotes.

What do you think make up the Holonet, yet the Holonet uses many millions of hyperwave transceivers just to cover the few (in comparison to the many that are not) civilised sectors of the galaxy. Besides, hyperwave signals are only used for Communication, it’s not as if they are some sort of Radar. The Probe Droid would have to physically go out there and scan the system and then Report back with it’s Hypercomm. But even making a short trip into the completely unknown would present risks of being destroyed. Or the trips could be shortened to maximise survival, but this would limit the range of the jumps that could be taken.

“Probots are armed disposable self-sufficient military droids deployed to remote systems for on missions of patrol and surveillance. They are expensive in comparison to common droids, but much cheaper than sending trained living beings and life-support systems appropriate to the destination.”

But not only that, these Probe Droids are designed to only scout planets, not systems. In order to outfit one to scan entire systems rather than just a planet would substantially increase it's cost since it would require larger and better quality sensors.


Read your own link. It says:
"Because of the vast space that requires policing, the Battlefleet is normally split into detachments consisting of one or two cruisers, accompanied by a squadron of escorts."

So it's not like the faster GE ships (you know, the ones with more time to prepare) will blunder into an entire fleet.

I have never stated that there would be nothing less than that. In my previous posts I have in fact stated that that would be the number of IOM ships in system. IOM sectors cover on average 200 inhabited worlds like the Gothic Sector shown in the snipping below form the page 45 of the Rulebook.

Posted Image

Meaning that at any one time there would be more than likely a Detachment either in system or very close.


Don't mince words, the quote said:
"The RotJ novel states that the Empire is made up thousands of sectors. ? From the same G canon novel a typical sector group is 1 SSD (Com ship 6Km) and 24 ISD plus thousands of lesser war ships. "

Warships do not include starfighters/shuttles or gunboats.

Actually that is not an official quote of any sorts, in fact you said it was someone else’s argument. I have been looking for more info on it, and I found the actual numbers for an Imperial Sector Group, which states that they were ONLY comprised of 24 ISDs. No SSDs, and no “Thousands of lesser warships”. This actually makes sense as at no time during the movies or in the books had there been more regular ships that Star Destroyers (except in the case of the Katana Fleet that was made up of Dreadnoughts) in an Imperial or even Republic Fleet, unless accounting fighters. Your friend might have been confused, as a fleet of 24 ISD would carry a complement of around three to four thousand fighters, shuttles and small gunboats.

#104 Skirmisher

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:37 AM

While the first section has yet to be proven, I accept the second part, as most of the fan calcs that I've seen put IoM and the GE warships on par with each other. Generally, I've heard it described as "Pound for pound, GE ships are stronger, it's simply that IoM ships are usually much bigger than GE ships."

I’ve seen it too, and as for the first part, Space Stations are built as strong as Cruisers. In fact they’re like a Mars Class Battlecruiser that stays in orbit, only without the Nova Cannon.


Your reasoning for cruisers being this strong?

Easy, If two equally skilled gamers with equal luck were to face each other, one with a Battleship and the other with 3+ Cruisers, then it should be an even fight. This is reasoned with the points system, fully indicating that these Cruisers in that amount would be equal in strength to a Battleship. As I have said before a Battleship is the Equal to a Battlebarge like the one shown in the Firewarrior video. That Battlebarge was able to produce multi-Petaton level damage per second. So if a Battleship/Battlebarge could win against an SSD in a pitched battle and 3+ Cruisers = Battleship/Battlebarge then 2 should at least be able to hold one off until reinforcements arrive.


There it is again, your lack of tacking into account that the GE ships can simply arrive, blast the planet and then leave before any sort of reinforcements arrive.

And you forget to take into account any sort of defense the IOM would have! An Undefended world doesn’t last long in the IOM, they are like sheep untended by a shepherd let loose into a forest with known wolf packs lurking about. They all have some sort of defence, be it system ships, an orbital defence grid or a detachment from the Fleet.

I also find it funny how you Assume that Base Delta Zeros are Standard tactics that an Imperial Captain would just commit to on a whim. Let alone the fact that on even backwater IOM planets, large cities usually have Massive Shield Generators. Take Verghast for example from the novel Necropolis. A fairly small and out of the way Hive world by IOM standards, but each of its cities had working Void Shields, or at least Vervunhive and Vannnickhive did, as one received bombardment on its shield and the other had a bomb snuck under it. Presumably other hives also had similar shields since the technology is so common.

“Zocia has levelled [Vannickhive]. We have no idea how. They got inside the Shield somehow…” pg532 of “The Founding” and omnibus that has the novel Necropolis in it.

Now I’m not too sure how much damage they can take, But Zocia had access to teraton level bombs and instead of dropping them on the shield, they decided to go under it.

Pg 51 of Necropolise states that Vannickhive was around 3000km from Vervunhive. When the bomb was used it was inside of the hive, and its shields were up. The heatwash and wind could still be felt from the walls of Vervunhive. Meaning that such a bomb was contained down to a few hundred gigatons from a blast possibly hundreds of times greater in power.


How can the IoM ever attack the GE fleets, if the IoM can never catch up to them?

So without doing any sort of Damage to anything within the Imperium they would just run away? Get to a system “Aw Crap! There are ships here, run!” rinse, wash, repeat x number of times. What a way to war! Besides, if you’re talking about in system fighting then I would expect the IOM to out perform the GE in sublight speeds as well. Proof below:

Using the scene from Fire Warrior, we have a rough Time estimate of each round within BFG. Several salvoes were fired in a half minute, each salvo was one turns worth of firing. Meaning that we can combine the distance value of BFG with the Time values that Fire Warrior provided to give an estimate of BFG Sublight speeds.
According to the chart below for Planetary sizes, 1cm in game is approximately 400 to 500 kilometers. (avg cm of med planet against earth diameter)
The Firewarrior scene shows that one turn takes about a couple of seconds.
Based on this, a cruiser with a speed of 20cm/turn would be moving at an average speed of almost 8000 kilometers per second while cruising, with an average flank speed (all ahead full order) of around 15,000 kilometers per second. Seeing as how this Crusier must move at least 10cm (4000km/s) to account for momentum and can in one turn speed up to Flank Speed this would mean that that Cruser and her crew would be under at least 1,000,000 G in acceleration. Which thoroughly beats an ISD’s 2300 G.

Posted Image

Basically what this means is that the GEs ships appear in system, exclaim “Crap!” and attempt to flee. IOM ships pounce before they can get their navicomps co-ordinates in. The GE looses some ships before they can escape while the IOM takes no damage. Net gain in favour of the IOM.


I'm not buying it.
I've read some books of WH40K and never are shields mentioned to extand that far from normal ships. Even if what you say was true, since you can't find any sources to back it up, I will not accept it.

Hell, I've even tried finding some sources for you, and cannot find them. The Lexicanum site and the WH40K wiki don't show up shields at all, thought I know they exist. Void shields I think they are called.

It's nothing against you, nor am I calling you a liar. It is simply a matter of principle that I cannot accept unsourced arguments.

See what I’m talking about? BFG is only a “Specialist Game” and therefore not that popular at GW as their main games (Warhammer, 40K, and LotRs). To them it’s simple business to not care about BFG since it doesn’t make as much money as 40K. As a result there are not that many actual facts about Space Ships in 40K. The only facts that are know, I have done my best to provide. The rest due to necessity is based on assumptions unfortunately. Such as: Battleship bases extend inches out from where the ship actually is in space, those inches are measurable as thousands of kilometers. So if a bomb explodes thousands of kilometers away from the battleship then why is it “Dangerous” when that same bomb could explode at the same distance from a smaller ship with smaller base and not be considered “dangerous”? The only reason is that base must somehow represent the ships Shields. This is my logic applied to the Black Hole of information that is BFG, and therefore you can choose whether or not to accept it.

#105 Skirmisher

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 01:53 AM

There are books, however, that show space battles, engagements and maneuvers.

Books that mostly deal with the human side of it all, since it would be extremely hard for an author to even conceptualise the sheer amount of force that these ships can produce. Sure it has numbers on how ships compare to each other, but it breaks down when they get to display that power in any useful light. It can’t have the displays of sheer power that SW does, because there’s too much power to have any meaning.


It makes sense that the telepathic communication is faster than warp travel itself, yet the problem is still the same. The communication may get there relatively fast, but the reinforcements themselves do not.

Like I said, each sector of the IOM has a Fleet of about 50 to 75 Capitol Ships of Crusier and Battleship weights, with about 30 to 50 squadrons (3+ ships/squad). These ships are spread out across the sector in detachments of around 2+ Capitol ships and several squadrons. At any one time, a system will have at least a Detachment in it, or have one arrive within a couple of hours to a day at the most. This would allow them to defend the useful planets long enough for a call to go out, and since ships could easily come from neighbouring systems it should only take a couple of minutes to a little less than an hour to get at least One additional detachment. The good thing too about Warp Drive is that the GE has no way to track it, and as such wouldn’t know where the reinforcements have come from. So that would mean that they wouldn’t be able to just strike out at that now “undefended” system without a lot of guesswork and some luck.


Since I'm getting slightly frustrated by the amount of things that you are saying (and hoping I will take on trust, since you aren't actually bothering to put any links around for the vast majority of your claims) I've looked them up for you.

Attempting to increase the amount of Links I present.


Imperial Guard
"The Imperial Guard is the primary fighting force of the Imperium, "

Wrong Time Period. The Imperial Guard does not exist yet according to the set-up, it is the Imperial Army, which was used to support the Astartes, Garrison worlds, besiege planets with overwhelming numbers.


Also the AT-AT is a assault transport vehicle. It is not a dedicated attack vehicle like the Titans are. The A6 Juggernaut can give us a ballpark of the AT-AT (and any dedicated assault vehicles) strenght:
"Against an unshielded target, a Juggernaut could deliver the heat of a nuclear bomb into a small area."

Ok and Titans are designed to easily withstand such attacks, for example the larger Emperor Class Titans “would not be out of place on a planetary defence installation”

Could an A6 Juggernaut deal the kind of damage that would not seem out of place guarding a planet from enemy ships?

Also don’t forget that 40K ships are many times more powerful and many times better defended than SW ships, so that would mean that it might be possible for this large Titan to down small GE ships.

Another point on the Durability of Titans... It's something I can't quite back up at the present time as I have yet to find sources, but I have heard of a Titan easily surviving a Virus Bomb attack on the planet it guarded. It survived and had to be removed by more direct means.

Also… didn’t the Juggernaut series of vehicles suffer from bad design? And they can’t really turn that well, as well as their Drive shafts are hard to replace, and/or are easily broken…

"Day 17: Forward drive shaft on Juggernaut-11 has snapped. Requesting replacement drive shaft."
"Day 22: Resubmitting request for replacement drive shaft."
"Day 38: Drive shaft still has not arrived. Please advise."
"Day 50: Awaiting drive shaft."
"Day 123: Awaiting drive shaft."
- Excerpt from log of Imperial machinist stationed on Dathomir

Not only that, but it says that these were being Phased Out, and replaced by AT-AT’s.

And now I present you with the smallest of Imperium Titans, the Warhound Scout Titan
Posted Image

#106 Skirmisher

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 02:02 AM

Milky Way galaxy
"The Imperium exists within the Milky Way galaxy, a large spiral with a total mass of about 200-400 billion stars. The Imperial worlds are scattered throughout most of this galaxy, although it counts only a tiny fraction of the galaxy's stars as its territory."

This is just an assumption, and only holds water from a modern scientific standpoint. This same argument could be put against the SW Galaxy. How it is spread out across the galaxy but only actually cares about a very small percentage of the planets in it. Also note that the Lex is just a wiki, a very good wiki, but still a wiki.


WH40K wiki
The Imperium is the largest and most powerful political entity in the galaxy, consisting of at least a million worlds, which are dispersed across most of the Milky Way galaxy.

If you have sources that prove otherwise, show them.

“At Least” and it’s a wiki which is trying to pin an unfounded number on an a number that has only been hinted at as Extremely large and Uncountable. The Wiki could just have easily said that the IOM has “at least a five worlds” does this mean that there are only five worlds in the IOM? No, no it doesn’t.


No, they wouldn't. The GE ships can attack the least defended areas, destroy those planets, and them leave. They'd have to fight, at best, a few scattered defenders here and there, and might occasionally do all out offensives against fleets. This means that worlds that contribute to production of war resources are being destroyed across the strecth of Imperium space, and only on rare occasions could a counterattack be mounted.

1) Most imperial worlds that actually contribute enough resources to be acknowledged by the Imperium would have some form of system defence.
2) Any said world would have Imperium Fleet assets either in system or within minutes of being in the system. Usually of Detachment level in strength, ie: 2 Cruisers, and a slew of Escort Squadrons.
3) You seem to forget the fact that the IOM has Psykers, who have some degree of clairvoyance. Usually this wouldn’t matter as the other races of 40K have ways to negate this, but not the GE.
4) The EOM and Magnus the Red are exceptionally gifted Psykers, who could see the future except when Chaos clouded there sight. As well the Eldar have helped IOM forces out with their extremely powerful precognition in regards to galaxy changing events such as these.
5) Counter Attacks would not have to be mounted, unless the IOM identifies a forward base that GE forces are using.
6) Any attack into the SW Galaxy would not be a counter attack, it would be a Crusade, composed of hundreds of millions of warships and many trillions of soldiers.


Also, WTF is "permanently kill the IoMs warships" mean?
Prove that SW ships don't have the firepower to crippler the larger ships.

To Cripple a Battleship you would have to pump several Petatons or more of explosive force into undefended superstructure to effectively “cripple” it. After that the ships would still be able to operate at some level and would continue to try and fight. To completely take it out of action a further several petatons or more of force would be needed. After that it would only be a drifting space hulk that could be repaired within a couple months, or in a very unlikely scenario (3-10%) it could suffer a warp explosion.
Now it’s easier to take out a Crusier though, rather than knocking it out with so many petatons of force, it would still take around at least 7 to 10 petatons of force. But this does not account for the Dozens of meters of Adamantium Armour protecting these ships, or the Hundreds of Meters of Hardened Adamantium Frontal Ram. These ships are designed to literally go through hell and back in one peace hundreds of times and still be battle worthy. There is little the GE could do to fully put these ships out of the fight unless they overwhelmed them with thousands or tens of thousands of ISDs to one. But even in that unlikely scenario the ISD’s would still suffer badly, with probably 50% casualties. Any military tactician would tell you that that number of casualties would be a failure, as well as a death toll of hundreds of Millions if not billions of Trained Crew and Officers.


World Devastators
The GE wouldn't have to waste it's own resources, it could simply plop those down in asteroid fields or uncolonized planets and churn out fleets using the resources of the Milky Way.

Then you run the risk of encountering one of the Other Races of 40K (Remember, although this is a fight between the IOM and the GE, it doesn’t bar the existence of other races or factions)

That uninhabited world could turn out to be a Necron Tomb world lying dormant, waiting for something to disturb their slumber. Or it could be an Eldar claimed world and as much as the GE wouldn’t want to fight Necrons they do not want to tangle with the Eldar! Or it may be that it is within the boarders of Tau space, and they’re just as powerful as the IOM even though they have far less space. Etc. Etc. By this time there wouldn’t be very many unclaimed non-used worlds in the galaxy. The GE will eventually piss someone off if it just stumbles along arbitrarily claiming and plundering planets.

#107 Scar

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 02:06 AM

NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Though seriously, love the debate. I can't say anything more then you too already have, except that I pity any Empire squadron that has to deal with the World Eaters.

Here's hoping Jar Jar has a random encounter with Typhus, who even in pre heresy times was already cultivating his dark pact with Nurgle.

#108 Skirmisher

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 02:12 AM

The GE uses it's superios FTL to attack a relatively undefended planet. It gathers all the lasguns, vortex grenades, Titan models, tanks etc etc that it can carry, and runs back home. The next time the GE shows up, all it's soldiers are Dark troopers sporting lasguns, supported by SW-Titans, LeMan Russ tanks and all manner of reverse engineered technology.

The problem is that any such world that has such a “high” degree of tech would be defended with a force that could at least hold off a large GE fleet long enough for reinforcements to show up. The GE could attack a small backwater Agro World, and copy some of their chitty Autoguns, or some Muskets! Most of the civilised worlds that can actually outfit their troops with Standard Guard equipment are either vary close to Active Fleet assets or have fleet and orbital defences of their own.

And even in the unlikely assumption that a large enough GE fleet could land on one of the more civilised worlds they wouldn’t get much tech as Russ tanks are just built Bigger than a regular tank and that’s how they operate. Titans would have to be Orbitally Bombarded in order to take them down leaving little if nothing remaining to salvage, and as for Dark Troopers sporting Lasguns… Although it’s an improvement, it seems really comical to me, as it’s “Upgraded” to one of the weakest infantry weapons in 40K.


Iapetus: A moon made 80% out of ice, well over 1,400 KM wide.
Mimas
Tethys
Dione
Rhea

I'd go on, but it seems that most of Saturns moons have most of their mass as ice.
The rings of Saturn are almost entirely made up of ice, it would be easy to imagine 1,000 km ice moons floating about, probably close to planets similar to Saturn.

Eurpoa – Like I said before, Thin ice, liquid water, and rocky mantle and core.
Iapetus – States that like Rhea, it is composed of AT LEAST 1/4 Rock.
Mimas – Very Small: only 396km wide
Tethys – The only moon that is similar to the “Moon” in your quote.
Dione- Almost half of it is made of Rock
Rhea – At least a quarter of it is made of Rock.
Ganymede – Large Iron Core almost as wide as the mantle is deep, with the mantle being composed of Ice with a high degree of silicate material.
Triton – Composed of only 30-45% Water Ice.
Titania – Composed of Equal portions of Water Ice and Rock
Oberon – Same as Titania
Callisto – Same as Oberon.

This points to the fact that larger Ice Moons require a good portion of it to be made of rock. Since only two (at the most) of the 11 icy moons fit your proposed description of the unnamed “ice moon” there would only be an 18% chance of it actually being entirely composed of Ice. As it stands, yes it is possible that it is just Ice, but there is enough material to say that there could be a moderate to high degree of Rock in or below that Ice, with a possibility of an iron core. So unless you can get more data on that “ice moon” this subject is Stalled and Inconclusive.


I rarely, if ever, attempt to talk about the Force Users the GE employs, since that is more of a "This one particular Force user was strong" or "This one class of Psyker could overpower a weaker class of Force User." Either way, in the end, it is quite irrelevant, since they would show up in insufficient numbers to really affect a way.

Let’s look at this (The Assignment)

Based on numbers, Bata level psykers could appear at maybe one in every dozen billion, or hundred billion people. Based on the number of actual people crammed into all the worlds of the Imperium this is alot. Agun Soric is an example of one, untrained he was able to receive his own hand-written notes about unknowable future events within his message container. Even if he didn’t have it on him, it would just materialise in his pocket. After he was trained (and tortured) by the Black Ships he was able to give otherworldly premonitions in the form of ghosts to a whole regiment or more of soldiers. When actually using his power to the full extent he was able to casually annihilate a whole company of enemy soldiers. He was Beta, the Imperial Guard has many of them. Hell, due to their resistances and augmentations Space Marines have a better tolerance to the “Training” that is done, resulting with the even more powerful Librarians. One legion that has a startlingly high degree of them is the Thousand Sons Space Marine Legion, with one in about 30 to 50 being one of these. It’s even noted that the Legion suffered from this as the high amount of powerful psykics tended to either die or badly mutate, and only with Magnus stabilizing them did they actually achieve proper Legion numbers. Still though this would mean that this legion alone has thousands of powerful Psykers, each with the power to rip apart hundreds of men in seconds with only a thought.


This entire timeline is interesting, I'm reading over it to see exactly what I'm fighting, and it seems that, going by the time you stated "Shortly before Horus got possessed." it sounds like the Imperium was at it's weakest. This page says the Emperor went out and reconquered some planets, "hundreds of thousands", it's not until 3 millenia later that more worlds are conquered? Or, at the very least, a major conquest mission lead by some Ursurs guy

Wow that’s some bad guessing. M29 was the start of the Great Crusade with the Primarch Project and the founding of the first 20 Space Marine Legions. M30 saw this first small and initial conquest into the stars taking those “Hundreds of thousands of stars” but was more focused on Finding the scattered Primarches than actually expanding the IOM. The Great Crusade then goes on until M31 where Horus betrays the Emperor and more than half the Space Marine Legions side with Chaos killing off well more than half of the Legions that remained loyal.

That Ursurs guy only lead a small exploretor fleet out into the far edge of the galaxy. The whole thing was probably more of a political maneuver to remove him from office and tuck him on an out of the way and not too important mission. That kind of thing happens alot.

#109 Skirmisher

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 02:18 AM

Oh! Also another reason that the GE will never be able to use a Titan... The Princeps are the pilots of the Titans and the GE would never be able to replicate this kind of technology without years of study and a major overhaul of their ethics on Cyborgs.

#110 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 04:47 PM

Oh damn, this reply is going to take a while. Wasn't really expecting it so soon, but ah well, good to be back. :)

Oh actually, I'll reply to something here, mainly because it doesn't have much to do with the debate.

Frankly the reason that I hate this one point is that if it were true, then it would mean that almost everything else within Star Wars would have been PIS. It would mean that all the additional stories (some of which are actually good) are built on PIS.


Well, I think my explantion of the Unknown Region makes sense (and seems to be supported by at least some of the books and such) but yes, I agree, the main (and by main I mean lazy, poorly thought out and easy) explanation is retarded. All you can do is make up your own explanation, or ignore the cheap explanation they give.

Frankly I will admit, alot of shit in Star Wars doesn't make any damn sense.

#111 ricrery

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 04:57 PM

Oh damn, this reply is going to take a while. Wasn't really expecting it so soon, but ah well, good to be back. :)

Oh actually, I'll reply to something here, mainly because it doesn't have much to do with the debate.



Well, I think my explantion of the Unknown Region makes sense (and seems to be supported by at least some of the books and such) but yes, I agree, the main (and by main I mean lazy, poorly thought out and easy) explanation is retarded. All you can do is make up your own explanation, or ignore the cheap explanation they give.

Frankly I will admit, alot of shit in Star Wars doesn't make any damn sense.



Warhammer 40k breaks the laws of time and space, it doesn't really make sense.

#112 Ruinus

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Posted 22 September 2009 - 07:31 PM

Warhammer 40k breaks the laws of time and space, it doesn't really make sense.


So does any sci-fi with FTL travel, but that wasn't the point. I was talking about storylines, not about tools.

#113 Skirmisher

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Posted 26 September 2009 - 04:00 AM

I just wanted to Link dump this here for use later in an Imperium Respect Thread. Although it does carry some significances to this discussion as this would be the standard weapon that the Galactic Empires troopers will have to face.

The Bolt Gun

I wish there was more, Like for Plasma and Meltaguns...

#114 Ruinus

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 06:12 PM

The simple fact is that even with billions of probe droids “Scouting new hyperspace routes [is] an incredibly dangerous task. There are some problems with your hypothesis though. First, even though they had the resources to build a Death Star, it doesn’t mean that they could instantly repurpose those construction droids into building Stardestroyers.


Prove that probe droids were scouted with billions of probe droids. Also, the quote says "Scouting new hyperspace routes was an incredibly dangerous task for an explorer." It is dangerous if a person is going in there, scouting new routes, but no one gives a shit if a droid smashes itself into a planet, star or whatever.

Death Star and Death Star II was produced in secret, in one star system, in such a short amount of time dwarfs the IoMs industrial capacity. The time it would take over to switch production is probably negligable, and even if it wasn't, you'd still have to show its an appreciable amount of time for the IoM to take advantage of it.

But your claim is that they could use Cloning… Yes Cloning solve everything right? Except the fact that Kamino Cloning takes 10 years and Spaarti Cloning results in poor quality clones (compared to Kamino Clones) that have a possibility of going mad.


Time:
"What can you teach a clone in a few months that a man takes a lifetime to learn?"
―Emperor Palpatine to Darth Vader

"Spaarti clones grown in less than a full year had the dangerous side effect of possible clone madness."
Simply grow them in more than a year, and the possibility is gone (at least, going by the wording here).

Also:
"However, Thrawn discovered that using ysalamiri to cut off the clone's connection to the Force would enable the creation of the clone in 15 standard days at the least, 20 standard days at the middle, or 21 standard days at the most."

Of course, after some reasearch, it seems that this is about 5 years after the time I am using (I'm using the Empire at its height, which would be right during the Death Star II construction. Of course, since in this scenario the Rebels don't win, I am simply stating that Thrawn (or someone else) could discover this and employ it in the war.

However, that is irrelevant, since the CIS crewed ships with droids, the GE can easily do the same. Keep Kamino producing the highest quality clones, bolster the numbers with flash clones, droids and recruits. Sure, the flash clones and droids may not be of the same quality of the stormtroopers/clonetroopers, but that also doesn't matter. They can be churned out in gigantic numbers until the quality ones show up.

After the Emperor himself enters the Star Wars Galaxy


Which would never happen, since the GE can enter the Milky Way there faster than the IoM could leave.

Within a year or two,
Within the Decade
To gather the Fighting Men of the Imperium would take years, but the first action would be seen within a couple weeks, as world after world falls to the Emperor and his legions.


Seriously. This is the hilarious part of this discussion. The IoM and the GE are, more or less, on equal terms with respect to ship firepower. The GE has better production capacity, and takes a day to travel across a galaxy that is larger than our own.

The IoM takes years.

Do you seriously not see the problem here?

Not undefended, simply not defended enough, and not able to get reinforcements within any appreciable amount of time.

#115 Ruinus

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 06:51 PM

What do you think make up the Holonet, yet the Holonet uses many millions of hyperwave transceivers just to cover the few (in comparison to the many that are not) civilised sectors of the galaxy. Besides, hyperwave signals are only used for Communication, it’s not as if they are some sort of Radar. The Probe Droid would have to physically go out there and scan the system and then Report back with it’s Hypercomm. But even making a short trip into the completely unknown would present risks of being destroyed. Or the trips could be shortened to maximise survival, but this would limit the range of the jumps that could be taken.[/quote]

Bullshit, we just had this discussion. The Unknown Regions "contains no more than one percent of the galaxy's stars" (Galaxy Guide 8: Scouts p24; Tales of the Bounty Hunters p301). Holonet is a galactic internet (basically). I also did not claim Holonet would be a radar, I said that probe droids could scout out areas of space, and send the information via Holonet (or subspace) back to the GE forces.

[quote]“Probots are armed disposable self-sufficient military droids deployed to remote systems for on missions of patrol and surveillance. They are expensive in comparison to common droids, but much cheaper than sending trained living beings and life-support systems appropriate to the destination.”

But not only that, these Probe Droids are designed to only scout planets, not systems. In order to outfit one to scan entire systems rather than just a planet would substantially increase it's cost since it would require larger and better quality sensors.[/quote]

It says "expnsive in comparison to common droids" which doesn't say much. This is Star Wars, where droids are found almost on every single planet, even on the shitholes like Tatooine. Also, you are getting the "probe droids only scout planets" from The Empire Strikes Back, where Vader employs thousands of probe droids across the galaxy, to find one Rebel base. That shoots yourself in the foot, if thousands of them can be spent just to find one place.

[quote]Meaning that at any one time there would be more than likely a Detachment either in system or very close.[/quote]

But that is my point. Are they close enough to actually respond to an attack, or several attacks at the same time?

[quote]Your friend might have been confused, as a fleet of 24 ISD would carry a complement of around three to four thousand fighters, shuttles and small gunboats.[/quote]

Found a better quote here.
"The average SECTGRU is explicitly stated to “contain at least 2,400 ships, 24 of which are Star Destroyers, and another 1,600 combat starships”" The reference is the Imperial Soucebook: Second Edition

Fighters and gunboats are not considered ships, they are considered... well fighters and gunboats.

Also:
"At its peak, it fielded millions of warships, logistics vessels and fighters, maintaining Imperial control throughout the galaxy."

This makes sense with the figure above:
2,400 + 1,600 * 1,001 (the smallest number that can be considered "thousands") = 4,004,000 ships.

#116 Ruinus

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:07 PM

I also find it funny how you Assume that Base Delta Zeros are Standard tactics that an Imperial Captain would just commit to on a whim.


Not a Base Delta Zero, but simply bombing a planet is.

Now I’m not too sure how much damage they can take,


And I'm not going to look that up for you, because you brought it up. You therefore have to show how much firepower it can deflect before failing. Otherwise, I can't do anything, because you could simply say "Well, since we don't know how much the Void shields take, they stay up."

But Zocia had access to teraton level bombs and instead of dropping them on the shield, they decided to go under it.


And ISDs are easily petaton firepower, considering the older Venators are 800+ teratons. Also, did they USE that teraton bomb? They have access to them, but did it use it?

Pg 51 of Necropolise states that Vannickhive was around 3000km from Vervunhive. When the bomb was used it was inside of the hive, and its shields were up. The heatwash and wind could still be felt from the walls of Vervunhive. Meaning that such a bomb was contained down to a few hundred gigatons from a blast possibly hundreds of times greater in power.


Calcs for this.

So without doing any sort of Damage to anything within the Imperium they would just run away? Get to a system “Aw Crap! There are ships here, run!” rinse, wash, repeat x number of times. What a way to war! Besides, if you’re talking about in system fighting then I would expect the IOM to out perform the GE in sublight speeds as well.


No, I'm meant in that the IoM would never be able to attack GE ships in any territory of their choosing. Of course the GE and the IoM would end up fighting, but the GE can, if necessary, get out of a fight it can't win, and show up attacking on the other side of the IoM territory before the IoM can even recall its ships.

#117 Ruinus

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:31 PM

Books that mostly deal with the human side of it all, since it would be extremely hard for an author to even conceptualise the sheer amount of force that these ships can produce. Sure it has numbers on how ships compare to each other, but it breaks down when they get to display that power in any useful light. It can’t have the displays of sheer power that SW does, because there’s too much power to have any meaning.

Like I said, each sector of the IOM has a Fleet of about 50 to 75 Capitol Ships of Crusier and Battleship weights, with about 30 to 50 squadrons (3+ ships/squad).


Seriously, it isn't my fault that the writers of WH40K don't know how to show firepower during the novels, anymore than it is your fault that the SW writers don't show their firepower during the shows. This is a pretty poor excuse, I might as well say "The SW movies and novels center around the drama of a few characters, and hence we don't see the vast industrial war machines that their civilizations can toss around."

Compared to the thousands of ships in a standard Sector Group.

At any one time, a system will have at least a Detachment in it, or have one arrive within a couple of hours to a day at the most.

only take a couple of minutes to a little less than an hour to get at least One additional detachment.


This.

The ships take hours or days to reach what is essentially their own neighborhood, while GE ships take the same amount of time to travel the galaxy. It would be trivially easy for the GE to lure all the ships of a sector to one area, and then simply attack the other planets while most of their defenders are gone. THey wouldn't have to worry about more ships showing up for a few hours or days.

This is why the IoM would lose.

Minutes and hours or hours and days? Make up your mind.

The good thing too about Warp Drive is that the GE has no way to track it, and as such wouldn’t know where the reinforcements have come from. So that would mean that they wouldn’t be able to just strike out at that now “undefended” system without a lot of guesswork and some luck.


Thats why they could simply collect intel before attacking. You know, during that whole year that you mentioned the IoM needing to get the soldiers together.

Ok and Titans are designed to easily withstand such attacks, for example the larger Emperor Class Titans “would not be out of place on a planetary defence installation”

Could an A6 Juggernaut deal the kind of damage that would not seem out of place guarding a planet from enemy ships?


"Emperors are very rare"
Why are you comparing a very rare heavy assault vehicle to a much smaller vehicle from SW?

Also, it can defeat ships? Are you sure that is what "planetary defense installation" implies? (As in, you sure those installations fire on ships, or are simply giant fortresses where all the PDF forces can fight from?)

Also don’t forget that 40K ships are many times more powerful and many times better defended than SW ships,

Also… didn’t the Juggernaut series of vehicles suffer from bad design? And they can’t really turn that well, as well as their Drive shafts are hard to replace, and/or are easily broken…[/


When did you prove this?

They had a large turning radius, (though probably because they could go up to 160 kph at top speed?), but where are you getting this bad design/fall apart easily from?

They were also phased out mainly because vehicles were made smaller and sleeker, probably due to the changing form of warfare (all out war during the Clone Wars to urban combat during the Galactic Civil War).

#118 Ruinus

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Posted 29 September 2009 - 07:43 PM

This is just an assumption, and only holds water from a modern scientific standpoint. This same argument could be put against the SW Galaxy. How it is spread out across the galaxy but only actually cares about a very small percentage of the planets in it. Also note that the Lex is just a wiki, a very good wiki, but still a wiki.


WEG SWRPG Core Rulebook, Second Edition wrote:
Before you can adventure in the galaxy, you better know something about it. First off, it's big - the Empire rules billions of worlds.

Also, yes, it is just a wiki, but it's all we have, and no direct quotes from books have been posted yet. If you want a better number on planets, find a book, and quote a page. It was actually two wikis. (I think, been a while from this discussion). Also, if you want to refute the numbers, post a better quote. You can't simply say "the IoM has alot of worlds. More than the GE. Need sources? Too bad, no one knows, not even the IoM knows how many planets it has."

3) You seem to forget the fact that the IOM has Psykers, who have some degree of clairvoyance. Usually this wouldn’t matter as the other races of 40K have ways to negate this, but not the GE.
5) Counter Attacks would not have to be mounted, unless the IOM identifies a forward base that GE forces are using.
6) Any attack into the SW Galaxy would not be a counter attack, it would be a Crusade, composed of hundreds of millions of warships and many trillions of soldiers.


Or, in this scenario, the SW humans don't have a Warp presence. ;)
And the GE bases can be on the other side of the galaxy. The IoM could take years getting there.
And again, the IoM would take months or years getting across their own galaxy, and the same amount getting across the SW galaxy. Also, the IoM would never get into the SW galaxy, as the GE would be in the Milky Way first, attacking the IoM first, the IoM can't go and attack before it can stick around to secure its own place first.

There is little the GE could do to fully put these ships out of the fight unless they overwhelmed them with thousands or tens of thousands of ISDs to one.


Except that ISDs are easily in the petaton range, with bigger verions (Tectors probably) getting even higher. ISDs are also some of the smaller ships in the Imperial Navy.

But even in that unlikely scenario the ISD’s would still suffer badly, with probably 50% casualties. Any military tactician would tell you that that number of casualties would be a failure, as well as a death toll of hundreds of Millions if not billions of Trained Crew and Officers.

Then you run the risk of encountering one of the Other Races of 40K (Remember, although this is a fight between the IOM and the GE, it doesn’t bar the existence of other races or factions)


Yeah, which means that the IoM collapses far faster. Because now the IoM has to fight an enemy that can outproduce it (and probably everyone else), has ships that can go toe to toe with IoM ships, and can travel the galaxy in a day.

The strain pushes the IoM over the edge. Game over.

That uninhabited world could turn out to be a Necron Tomb world lying dormant, waiting for something to disturb their slumber. Or it could be an Eldar claimed world and as much as the GE wouldn’t want to fight Necrons they do not want to tangle with the Eldar! Or it may be that it is within the boarders of Tau space, and they’re just as powerful as the IOM even though they have far less space. Etc. Etc. By this time there wouldn’t be very many unclaimed non-used worlds in the galaxy. The GE will eventually piss someone off if it just stumbles along arbitrarily claiming and plundering planets.


The Tau exist at this moment? Also, the Necrons are a huge copout man.

IoM vs GE.
IoM wins because Necrons kill GE!
<_<

#119 ricrery

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 12:16 AM

Firepower: How the hell do Venators do 700 teratons? It's been stated that older ships did FLUXING 200 GIGATONS WITH EACH TURBOLASER. IRRC the weaker ship's lances did 610 gigatons, said so in the magazine. Plus ISD are NOTHING without their shields, a asteroid can pierce its armoring while fights with Chaos and the Imperium can last entire weeks. Durability wise they aren't close to Ironclads. Also it says ISD's turbolasers do x10 the amount of Acclamators which did said 200 gigs. 1.2 teratons = easily wield of petatons? Well, let's be fair and bring in the 120 turbolasers, that's a sum of 144 teratons! Impressive indeed but nothing compared to the 22 petatons the Nova Cannon has. But shields you say? They have torpedoes that bypass shields. Winner: IoM

In terms of speed? Yeah I am certain the Hyperdrive is much faster, but remember that the Warp is random and you can get to a place in less time than you were in the warp or get there before leaving at all, it has its uses right? Still unreliable. Winner: GE

In terms of superweapons: Death Star/Sun Crusher/Galaxy Gun vs Blackstone Fortresses/Vortex Grenades

Death Star vs Blackstone Fortresses: The Death Star is quite impressive indeed with a hypermatter reactor and etc. But you have to remember that it isn't always about who makes the bigger explosion <_< since the Death Star is slow when it comes to turning and is its recharge (I believe DS1 at full power has to wait a full day before complete recharge) also slows it down, the Blackstones however, create holes between the Warp and Realspace which can turn matter into Warp energy: kind of like dynamite but without the big explosion. Personally I believe the Blackstones take this, but you can think otherwise. Winner: Blackstone Fortresses

Death Star vs Vortex Grenades: I see this as an easy win for DS, why? Well for starters the Vortex Grenades can barely absorb 8km Imperium Cruisers, and a 190/900km station wouldn't take any "serious" damage. Winner: Death Star

Sun Crusher vs Blackstone Fortresses: Ah, a tough one! Well, let's get to the durability of the two. The Sun Crusher is made from this special metal that is as scarce as money growing on trees for the GE, but it can ram a SSD with no damage, and it has to be shot at the engines to be crippled by the Death Star, damn fine if you ask me. Now the Blackstone Fortresses, the Blackstone Fortresses haven't proven so many feats for durability but some proof suggests they're indestructible, but I highly doubt it. One even took an attack from a fleet and didn't show any damage. But the Necron weaponry proves to pierce it just because it rips matter apart (that would also destroy the SC). Well, in terms of overall power it takes 2-3 Blackstone Fortresses to make a star go supernova, while it takes just one Sun Crusher to cause a star to go supernova. I only give it to the Blackstone is because it isn't restricted to stars and anti-fighter guns. Winner: Blackstone Fortresses

Sun Crusher vs Vortex Grenades: Tougher than the VG's last fight. Well, the Vortex Grenade can only absorb 8km ships and the Sun Crusher is a fighter sized weapon. HOWEVER, the Sun Crusher is much faster than said ships thus it can easily negate it, however if the SC makes a bad move and attempts to tank the VG it's in big trouble, but I give it to who doesn't screw up first. Winner: Tie

Galaxy Gun vs Blackstone Fortresses: The ultimate fight is here! This time the Blackstone Fortresses durability won't save it! The Galaxy Gun will just turn it to matter, but the Blackstone Fortresses can turn the Galaxy Gun into matter meaning they both can destroy the other, this fight depends on who attacks first. Winner: Tie.

Galaxy Gun vs Vortex Grenades: Uh, well... I don't know how fast the GG is ;) . Winner: Until I figure out how fast it is.

#120 Skirmisher

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Posted 30 September 2009 - 01:21 AM

Prove that probe droids were scouted with billions of probe droids. Also, the quote says "Scouting new hyperspace routes was an incredibly dangerous task for an explorer." It is dangerous if a person is going in there, scouting new routes, but no one gives a shit if a droid smashes itself into a planet, star or whatever.

I was simply stating that the GE would have to scout out new hyperspace lanes within the MWG in order to get ANYWHERE, and that such a task is reported to be Incredibly Dangerous. This would mean that yes I would argue that it would take billions of Probe Droids to chart only a very few space lanes, but not to the degree of being Everywhere in the MW galaxy within a day or two...


Time:
"What can you teach a clone in a few months that a man takes a lifetime to learn?"
―Emperor Palpatine to Darth Vader

"Spaarti clones grown in less than a full year had the dangerous side effect of possible clone madness."
Simply grow them in more than a year, and the possibility is gone (at least, going by the wording here).

Also:
"However, Thrawn discovered that using ysalamiri to cut off the clone's connection to the Force would enable the creation of the clone in 15 standard days at the least, 20 standard days at the middle, or 21 standard days at the most."

Of course, after some reasearch, it seems that this is about 5 years after the time I am using (I'm using the Empire at its height, which would be right during the Death Star II construction. Of course, since in this scenario the Rebels don't win, I am simply stating that Thrawn (or someone else) could discover this and employ it in the war.

What about Food? The IOM has whole planets dedicated to just the production of Food stuffs for it's troops and ship crews, yet I haven't heard of any Star Wars agri-worlds.


However, that is irrelevant, since the CIS crewed ships with droids, the GE can easily do the same. Keep Kamino producing the highest quality clones, bolster the numbers with flash clones, droids and recruits. Sure, the flash clones and droids may not be of the same quality of the stormtroopers/clonetroopers, but that also doesn't matter. They can be churned out in gigantic numbers until the quality ones show up.

Yet still, droids are sub par tacticians and strategists... and if they aren't then the GE runs the gambit of having a Droid rebellion...

The simple fact though is that it would take the GE a Year in the LEAST to start it's war machine. With New Recruits, Training, Spartii Clones a Year or Madness, Droids kept incompetent to prevent rebellion... Before even they get to the field of battle the God Emperor of Mankind and ten of his 21 sons, commanding 11 legions of Space Marines would arrive in the Star Wars Galaxy and start Stomping. I estimate their strength at a quarter million Space Marines (based on my previous statments), 6000+ Battlebarges (it is common for a 1000 SM Chapter to have three, so that would be 3/1000 SMs, referenced on the Battlebarge background in the Gothic rule book), Roughly four times that in Strike Cruisers for 24,000 (since going by points roughly four Cruisers can be bought for the same points of a BB), and probably several escorts per Strike Cruiser, for 140,000 (assuming two small squadrons per Cruiser). Not to mention the Adeptus Machanicus Fleets that would haul the titans and various personnel that the Emperor would think to bring along to "recover" lost technology...


Which would never happen, since the GE can enter the Milky Way there faster than the IoM could leave.

No, the GE would first have to spend the time and energy plotting Hyperspace lanes in the MWG. Meanwhile the IOM has free reign (albeit relatively slow free reign) within the SWG, not needing hyperspace lanes to jet from sector to sector.


Seriously. This is the hilarious part of this discussion. The IoM and the GE are, more or less, on equal terms with respect to ship firepower. The GE has better production capacity, and takes a day to travel across a galaxy that is larger than our own.

I will refine my previous statements of IOM ships strengths...

Posted Image

Here we see a Battle Barges bombardment Cannons attack after less than 20 seconds of bombardment. However note that the Fireball achieved this size roughly several seconds into the bombardment before it sunk into the planet. The Fireball easily stretches out to a rough estimate of 4000 kilometers. Using this calculator we see that at Minimum this would be 8 Petatons, meaning that it would be quite easy for a Battle Barge to have a firepower output of around 1 petaton per second with Bombardment Cannons alone. Note that this is in addition to supporting Shields and Similar Strength weapons batteries on both sides of the ship. This would mean that it could fight with Peak shields pumping out up to 2 petatons per second in battle.

Reference: pg 22 of Imperial Fleets BFG rulebook, the Battlebarge with strength 8 Bombardment cannons and strength 12 Weapons Batteries on either side, both without compromising Shield strength of 3.


So while an ISD could possibly put all of it's 1 petaton/second worth of power into weapons, that would take power away from it's shields and propulsion systems, making it a sitting duck without any defenses.




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