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The Imperium of Man (pre-Horus Heresy) vs Galactic Empire (at its peak)


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#81 ricrery

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 11:41 PM

Mmmh, odd.
Lasgun:
"The standard pattern is known as the 'M-Galaxy' style although hundreds of thousands of variants exist... The M-Galaxy was first put into use in 2546789.M35."

Timeline

So, the lasgun doesn't exist for another 5,000 years? Neither do plasma guns? I'm assuming that's what the M35 means (the millenium it is introduced into service), at least that's what it seems like for the lasgun.

Land raiders and Land speeders don't exist yet either. Or at least, the knowledge to build them.

This entire timeline is interesting, I'm reading over it to see exactly what I'm fighting, and it seems that, going by the time you stated "Shortly before Horus got possessed." it sounds like the Imperium was at it's weakest. This page says the Emperor went out and reconquered some planets, "hundreds of thousands", it's not until 3 millenia later that more worlds are conquered? Or, at the very least, a major conquest mission lead by some Ursurs guy. If anyone could point me to some sources that would help me flesh this out, I'd appreciate it. Since some websites I've visited earlier (the Lexicanum and some other wiki) point to the IoM controlling millions of worlds (not billions) and this whole "conquering hundreds of thousands" makes sense to me, given the millions.



Wow, I thought Lasguns would be the first weapons supplied to Guardsmen, they aren't so strong as they can vaporize a human torso at full power. Okay, since that's it. Let's make it the Dark Age of Technology. That was their peak of technology correct, current Imperium technology can't compare.

#82 Skirmisher

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 07:25 AM

Wow, I thought Lasguns would be the first weapons supplied to Guardsmen, they aren't so strong as they can vaporize a human torso at full power. Okay, since that's it. Let's make it the Dark Age of Technology. That was their peak of technology correct, current Imperium technology can't compare.

Currently writing my responses, very late at night here, and can barely think straight, so I'll post later when done.

You don't have to set it in the Dark Age of Tech, Where you set it first was good. They had Las and Plasma and Land Raiders and Speeders. I'll prove in my actual posts.

#83 Ruinus

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 11:14 AM

Wow, I thought Lasguns would be the first weapons supplied to Guardsmen, they aren't so strong as they can vaporize a human torso at full power. Okay, since that's it. Let's make it the Dark Age of Technology. That was their peak of technology correct, current Imperium technology can't compare.


The Emperor doesn't even show up until the Age of Strife.

#84 ricrery

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 02:51 PM

The Emperor doesn't even show up until the Age of Strife.



Let's put the Empire after they reformed. The one that lasted longer than before.

#85 Ruinus

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 02:57 PM

Let's put the Empire after they reformed. The one that lasted longer than before.


That's about as vague as "Pre-Horus Heresy" is.
Seriously, you should research both combatants before you put them against each other. This whole "Do lasguns even exist at this time?" "Well, move it to when they did have lasguns!" "Oh, you mean when the Emperor wasn't active?" "Move it to a time when they had both the Emperor and lasguns!" is pretty damn hilarious and frustrating.
So when does this take place? That website I linked to has a timeline there, so use it. I'm not going to go about guessing what's on your mind again.

#86 Skirmisher

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 03:38 PM

Too busy to post the rest so I'll just post this snippit of the whole, in order to prevent further degeneration of the topic.


Mmmh, odd.
Lasgun:
"The standard pattern is known as the 'M-Galaxy' style although hundreds of thousands of variants exist... The M-Galaxy was first put into use in 2546789.M35."

Lasguns existed well before that and were standard issue to the Imperial Guard during that time. It’s just that that particular lasgun pattern was “Standardized” as of M35. Same deal with the plasma guns. It never states a date at which they were first discovered because they were so basic a tech that they were never lost in the first place. The only thing that is apparent is that there were many types of Lasguns before M35 and that due to an ease of production the M-Galaxy type was the one Mass Produced in the hundreds of trillions to meet the needs of the Imperial Guard.

As for the Land Raiders and Speeders, they were discovered at the start of the Great Crusade, which was a several hundred years before the time originally set for this battle.

So yes, Guards have Lasguns, they have Plasmaguns, and Space Marines have both the Land Raider and Speeder.

#87 Ruinus

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 04:13 PM

As for the Land Raiders and Speeders, they were discovered at the start of the Great Crusade, which was a several hundred years before the time originally set for this battle.

So yes, Guards have Lasguns, they have Plasmaguns, and Space Marines have both the Land Raider and Speeder.


Skirmisher, did you even read those links?

Land Raider:
"When the Land Raider was first deployed by the Imperium is disputed. Some believe it to be as early as the start of the Great Crusade, during a great conflict that raged across the world of Calysto Platinum."

STC
"Probably the most significant find of an STC fragment was by Magos Arkhan Land in M31. This fragment contained the templates for the construction of the now famous Land Raider Main Battle Tank, the Land Speeder, all named in honour of their discoverer."

UK White Dwarf 245, pg 21, by Gav Thorpe is given as a reference.

Land Speeder
"Land Speeders are based on STC data recovered in M31, and afterwards became widely produced and used throughout the Imperium."

M31
It seems (if I understand their dating system correctly) that 12 years into M31 does the Horus Heresy occur. This gives the IoM 12 years to discover the STC and produce the vehicles.

It sounds (since there are now 2 pages that state they were discovered in M31, and only one source that says they believe the vehicles might have been fielded earlier) that the Land Raider/Speeder were both discovered early into M31, before the Horus Heresy, which would still be during the Great Crusade.

Your lasgun argument sounds reasonable enough.

#88 ricrery

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 10:19 PM

Well you're looking in Lexicanum, the unofficial Wikipedia for Warhammer 40k. But with all of this let's put it at the end of the Age of Strife, and the Empire I'm referring to is the Fel Empire. But if you don't like it, feel free to ask me to change it.

#89 Skirmisher

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 02:51 AM

Well you're looking in Lexicanum, the unofficial Wikipedia for Warhammer 40k. But with all of this let's put it at the end of the Age of Strife, and the Empire I'm referring to is the Fel Empire. But if you don't like it, feel free to ask me to change it.

I think I give up. This is getting hard, because the Time point keeps changing. It makes my arguments almost meaningless and to me it's like trying to hold a gallon of water with only your cupped hands.

You want my analysis of the strength of Humanity in 40K?

Pre age of Strife: Humanity would royally kick the ever loving s*** out of anything in the Star Wars galaxy, from the ancient armies of Jedi to a fully mobilized Galactic Empire to even the Fel Empire or Darth Krayt's Galactic Empire after it. At this point in time humanity had means of mass producing every technology seen within the IOM in the 41st millennium and then some, from Powerful AIs and Legions of Automated Soldiers to stuff that we've never even seen before. The only things they didn't have were Space Marines, and Titans, but they had the support of every human planet populated in the galaxy, and maybe even some alien allies.

Age of Strife: if it weren't for the vast instability of the space in the Galaxy due to Warp Storms, it would be a cake walk for even the Rebel Alliance (Not the NR). Since these storms lasted for quite a while (millenia IIRC) and were ever shifting it would make any attempt by any Star Wars government at attacking futile. But there would also be no resistance anyway since most Human worlds went Mad Max. The only real defenses would be on Terra and whatever planets the Adeptus Machanicus were able to get to through the Warp Storms, as Terra had the Emperor and his Proto-Space Marines and the AMs had their Titans that they developed at this time.

Post Age of Strife: Aside from the actual Age of Strife this is the Weakest the IOM would ever be. The Emperor would have control of only a handful of sectors, he would have very minimal resources, and his armies would be his first generation Space Marines (Not as good as later Generations like the First Foundings) and the presumably millions of warrior bands that swore allegiance to him. He wouldn't have his sons as after he created them they were teleported away by the Chaos Gods that viewed them and their father as threats, and the newer Space Marine Legions suffered from not having their Primarchs, as well as the fact that lot's of Tech was still missing in lost STCs scattered across the galaxy. So if it were at this time against any Star Wars government then it would be like kicking a small child.

The Great Crusade: That small child that you wanted to kick has come of age and can kick back. The Vast legions of Space Marines are at their peak strength. The Armies of Man have the weapons and ships they need. A large percentage of the Galaxy now belongs to the Imperium of Man, lead by the God Emperor of Mankind. Lost technologies have been discovered and are still being discovered, as well as new technologies being developed for the first time since the Age of Strife began such as the Webway gate the Emperor was building under his palace on Terra.

Post Horus Heresy: Utter Confusion reigned in the IOM, their leader nearly dead and completely unable to govern. More than Half the Armies turned traitor wiping out more than half the forces that Stayed loyal. Not a good time and it wouldn't be again for several millenia.

Pre Modern: Finally the IOM begins to regain the power it once held when the Emperor walked among Humanity. Though the times have gotten harder since. The Legions of Chaos mount ever more powerful raids and Crusades into IOM space. Species that were once too young to bother the IOM have developed (Tau). Once populated worlds are raised by an unknown enemy that has technology far in advance of anything Humanity has ever seen (Necrons). A Plague of Ravenous Death descends on the galaxy eating everything in it's path, and leaving dried and dessicated worlds in its wake (Tyranids). And sensing all the battle that the other races have stirred up the Orks spread in ever increasing numbers, readying for the Whaaaaag! to end all Whaaaag!s. At this point the Galaxy is on the precipice of annihilation.

Modern: There is only war. The IOM is besieged on all sides by all the threats of the Galaxy, what power they did regain is slowly slipping away under this onslaught. It's hinted at that everything comes to a head in the later days of the 41st millennium, though if that happened GW would be out of a Game. So, stories tend to blank out here, and only try and remember the "good times".


Pick one and stick with it, please. Then I might Re-consider leaving this debate.

#90 ricrery

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Posted 05 September 2009 - 04:15 PM

I think I give up. This is getting hard, because the Time point keeps changing. It makes my arguments almost meaningless and to me it's like trying to hold a gallon of water with only your cupped hands.

You want my analysis of the strength of Humanity in 40K?

Pre age of Strife: Humanity would royally kick the ever loving s*** out of anything in the Star Wars galaxy, from the ancient armies of Jedi to a fully mobilized Galactic Empire to even the Fel Empire or Darth Krayt's Galactic Empire after it. At this point in time humanity had means of mass producing every technology seen within the IOM in the 41st millennium and then some, from Powerful AIs and Legions of Automated Soldiers to stuff that we've never even seen before. The only things they didn't have were Space Marines, and Titans, but they had the support of every human planet populated in the galaxy, and maybe even some alien allies.

Age of Strife: if it weren't for the vast instability of the space in the Galaxy due to Warp Storms, it would be a cake walk for even the Rebel Alliance (Not the NR). Since these storms lasted for quite a while (millenia IIRC) and were ever shifting it would make any attempt by any Star Wars government at attacking futile. But there would also be no resistance anyway since most Human worlds went Mad Max. The only real defenses would be on Terra and whatever planets the Adeptus Machanicus were able to get to through the Warp Storms, as Terra had the Emperor and his Proto-Space Marines and the AMs had their Titans that they developed at this time.

Post Age of Strife: Aside from the actual Age of Strife this is the Weakest the IOM would ever be. The Emperor would have control of only a handful of sectors, he would have very minimal resources, and his armies would be his first generation Space Marines (Not as good as later Generations like the First Foundings) and the presumably millions of warrior bands that swore allegiance to him. He wouldn't have his sons as after he created them they were teleported away by the Chaos Gods that viewed them and their father as threats, and the newer Space Marine Legions suffered from not having their Primarchs, as well as the fact that lot's of Tech was still missing in lost STCs scattered across the galaxy. So if it were at this time against any Star Wars government then it would be like kicking a small child.

The Great Crusade: That small child that you wanted to kick has come of age and can kick back. The Vast legions of Space Marines are at their peak strength. The Armies of Man have the weapons and ships they need. A large percentage of the Galaxy now belongs to the Imperium of Man, lead by the God Emperor of Mankind. Lost technologies have been discovered and are still being discovered, as well as new technologies being developed for the first time since the Age of Strife began such as the Webway gate the Emperor was building under his palace on Terra.

Post Horus Heresy: Utter Confusion reigned in the IOM, their leader nearly dead and completely unable to govern. More than Half the Armies turned traitor wiping out more than half the forces that Stayed loyal. Not a good time and it wouldn't be again for several millenia.

Pre Modern: Finally the IOM begins to regain the power it once held when the Emperor walked among Humanity. Though the times have gotten harder since. The Legions of Chaos mount ever more powerful raids and Crusades into IOM space. Species that were once too young to bother the IOM have developed (Tau). Once populated worlds are raised by an unknown enemy that has technology far in advance of anything Humanity has ever seen (Necrons). A Plague of Ravenous Death descends on the galaxy eating everything in it's path, and leaving dried and dessicated worlds in its wake (Tyranids). And sensing all the battle that the other races have stirred up the Orks spread in ever increasing numbers, readying for the Whaaaaag! to end all Whaaaag!s. At this point the Galaxy is on the precipice of annihilation.

Modern: There is only war. The IOM is besieged on all sides by all the threats of the Galaxy, what power they did regain is slowly slipping away under this onslaught. It's hinted at that everything comes to a head in the later days of the 41st millennium, though if that happened GW would be out of a Game. So, stories tend to blank out here, and only try and remember the "good times".


Pick one and stick with it, please. Then I might Re-consider leaving this debate.



Great Crusade vs Fel Empire!

#91 Ruinus

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 04:11 PM

Well you're looking in Lexicanum, the unofficial Wikipedia for Warhammer 40k. But with all of this let's put it at the end of the Age of Strife, and the Empire I'm referring to is the Fel Empire. But if you don't like it, feel free to ask me to change it.


Lexicanum
"Please note that the wiki is for official canon only."

Why would you change it from Palpatine's Galactic Empire to the Fel Empire?

Great Crusade vs Fel Empire!


So your picking one side at it's best (well, best for WH40K anyways) and another at a point in time when it is rebuilding from a galaxy spanning invasion?

I agree with Skirmisher, pick a time and stick with it.

#92 ricrery

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 04:40 PM

Lexicanum
"Please note that the wiki is for official canon only."

Why would you change it from Palpatine's Galactic Empire to the Fel Empire?



So your picking one side at it's best (well, best for WH40K anyways) and another at a point in time when it is rebuilding from a galaxy spanning invasion?

I agree with Skirmisher, pick a time and stick with it.



Okay that's it, Modern Imperium vs Fel Empire! This is annoying!

#93 Ruinus

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 04:58 PM

Okay that's it, Modern Imperium vs Fel Empire! This is annoying!


So your picking one side at it's best (well, best for WH40K anyways) and another at a point in time when it is rebuilding from a galaxy spanning invasion?

:)

Oh I love shifting goalposts.

#94 ricrery

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 05:12 PM

So your picking one side at it's best (well, best for WH40K anyways) and another at a point in time when it is rebuilding from a galaxy spanning invasion?

:)

Oh I love shifting goalposts.



The Modern Imperium is its best? It's the worst part of the Imperium, the crippled one. That is losing its territory, and now the Fel Empire which is actually the Empire again only without Palpy. And less resources. So its fair.

#95 Ruinus

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 06:17 PM

The Modern Imperium is its best? It's the worst part of the Imperium, the crippled one. That is losing its territory, and now the Fel Empire which is actually the Empire again only without Palpy. And less resources. So its fair.


best (well, best for WH40K anyways)
Also better than the time you specified originally.

Sure the fight may or not be "fair" (only on a pretty subjective basis though) but what isn't fair is that your set up originally starts with the Pre-Horus IoM and ends with the Modern IoM, started with the GE at it's peak, and now shifted to the Fel Empire. It seems to me that as soon as I started pointing out the strenghts of the GE (production, resources, FTL speeds) and the negatives of the IoM (no Emperor in one era, smaller territory size, lack of some vehicles) you went: "Oops, let me make the IoM stronger, and the SW side weaker, than I originally said."

#96 ricrery

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 06:29 PM

best (well, best for WH40K anyways)
Also better than the time you specified originally.

Sure the fight may or not be "fair" (only on a pretty subjective basis though) but what isn't fair is that your set up originally starts with the Pre-Horus IoM and ends with the Modern IoM, started with the GE at it's peak, and now shifted to the Fel Empire. It seems to me that as soon as I started pointing out the strenghts of the GE (production, resources, FTL speeds) and the negatives of the IoM (no Emperor in one era, smaller territory size, lack of some vehicles) you went: "Oops, let me make the IoM stronger, and the SW side weaker, than I originally said."



You keep telling me the cons about the Imperium of Man suggesting that you want me to change it. And someone who suggested the GE immediately get a map of the Milky Way is pointing out my flaws?

#97 ricrery

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 06:32 PM

Plus the Tyranid Hivefleet = long ass time to make a map. So how one sided is it now my friend?

#98 Ruinus

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 07:20 PM

You keep telling me the cons about the Imperium of Man suggesting that you want me to change it. And someone who suggested the GE immediately get a map of the Milky Way is pointing out my flaws?


No, I keep pointing out the cons of the IoM because that's what I'm supposed to do. I'm arguing against it, therefore I have to point out it's flaws and weaknesses that the GE can exploit.

I dare you to point out where I suggested the GE immediately gets a map of the Milky Way.

Plus the Tyranid Hivefleet = long ass time to make a map. So how one sided is it now my friend?


So what are you arguing then? GE vs IoM or the GE vs the entire WH40K galaxy?

#99 ricrery

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 08:01 PM

No, I keep pointing out the cons of the IoM because that's what I'm supposed to do. I'm arguing against it, therefore I have to point out it's flaws and weaknesses that the GE can exploit.

I dare you to point out where I suggested the GE immediately gets a map of the Milky Way.



So what are you arguing then? GE vs IoM or the GE vs the entire WH40K galaxy?



You didn't say it, you kept bringing up that whole Hyperspace crap. Well, since you have to get into a position without any projectile in your way then... how is the Warp thing a disadvantage? Besides the Hive fleet won't attack, we can't leave important parts of the galaxy out.

#100 Ruinus

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Posted 06 September 2009 - 08:18 PM

You didn't say it, you kept bringing up that whole Hyperspace crap.


Yeah, I pointed out that the GE would have to map the Milky Way galaxy using short range FTL jumps and probe droids. This is not the same as "the GE immediately gets maps".

Well, since you have to get into a position without any projectile in your way then... how is the Warp thing a disadvantage?


The Warp drive is a disadvantage because it takes months or years to travel across the galaxy, while the GE can do the same in a few hours or days at most. As I've been saying through most of this discussion, this gives the GE a staggering advantage.

Besides the Hive fleet won't attack, we can't leave important parts of the galaxy out.


That's my point, you might as well have called this thing "Galactic Empire (not really, since I can change it) vs the Imperium of Man Pre-Horus Heresy (actually no, I mean the IoM at AoS, no I mean at DAoT, no I mean Modern IoM, no I mean IoM AND Tyranids)"

Basically, I'm saying that if you call this match "The Imperium of Man (pre-Horus Heresy) vs Galactic Empire (at its peak)" then you would expect that is who is fighting.

Anyways, I'm off for a Pre-Labor Day barbeque.




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