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The Imperium of Man (pre-Horus Heresy) vs Galactic Empire (at its peak)


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#61 Ruinus

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 01:01 PM

No, Battleships are reported to be a about a dozen or more Kilometres in length, it's just that their Shield Bubbles extend out to that far, rather than hug the hulls of the ships like Star Wars.



Are you sure? That sounds VERY odd, so I would like to ask for a source on this.

Frankly I don't see the problem with using BFG stats for BFG fleets since they are the ONLY NUMBERS TO GO ON. Finally with the Fire Warrior scene we actually have CONTEXT for what those numbers actually mean. If the ONLY number you had for Blasters were from an RPG book then yes I would allow them and argue against them as if they were your word of god, but they aren't, you have films and novels and comics and cartoons and such to back you up. It's just like your Star Wars Canon ladder, my numbers are still good as they have not been disproven by a higher source.

As for all the technical stuff about shields, Based off of the amount of power shown and put into context against the ships stats. I would have to say that each point of Shield in BFG would be able to take around 750 Teratons per second second.


Because the game mechanics are just that, game mechanics. In the novels you have very different things going on, with space marines dying in one hit, being ripped apart, IG soldiers taking on bigger enemies than they ever could in the games, etc etc.

Using your game mechanics to calc idea, then the Venator at full firepower can take out a shield and have 50-110 teratons left over to hit the ship.

Yet Azure Hammer Command seemed to only be as strong as One Sector Group... and they also only oversaw One Sector...



What?
Sector Fleet
"A standard Sector Group was composed of 24 Imperial-class star destroyers."

Azure Hammer Command
"At its height, this mighty fleet consisted of the Super Star Destroyer Whelm and 57 other capital ships."

You should have also clicked the Sector Zero link instead of simply skimming it's name.
"Imperial Center Oversector, also known as Oversector Zero, was an Imperial Oversector."

Ok, who allowed the Slaves to form a Union? I bet Somebody got Choked to death over that mistake.


The Death Stars required private shipping companies to bring in the materials, those are who I assume the "labor union disputes" refer to.

In fact, when word of the Safety of the new conflict zone (as well as the chance to fight along side their God) arrives back in the old galaxy, I would expect many hundreds of sextillions of Guardsmen to be signing up to be shipped through to the front.


And how long would this news take to travel? It would still take months to reach the entirity of the IoM, and then months for them to even reach the SW galaxy and get anywhere important there.

#62 Ruinus

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:20 PM

Game mechanics
I posted that as a joke.

Key Word: Reputed. I suppose that the reports might be true, but these would be unfounded. Besides, what setting was this rifle at, compared to other blaster rifles I would have to say it would have had to have been at Maximum, and would therefore drain ammo at a precipitous rate. And it would only give it the power to only match the Medium Setting on a Lasgun.<

Astartes
Astartes

This is one thing I don't get about this description, Metal conducts heat and thermal energy, so that means that TDs don't even effect metal? Please come back with examples of how deadly they actually were, or you could use the standard issue Fragmentation Pattern that all Stormtroopers carried that works little better than today's Fragmentation grenades<


It doesn't say what setting the A280 is required to slice apart men (why would it be reputed to be able to if any soldiers could easily check?)

Why do you assume the Astartes are going to be everyone? They are outnumbered by the IG (who would be likely to be doing the greatest amount of fighting).

Stomrtroopers aren't immediately killed by shots:
Coruscant Nights II page 34
"He squeezed off a blast of his own, and one of the troopers was hurled back. His armour protected him from anything except a point-blank hit at maximum power, but th eimpact would leave him stunned for a time."

Class-A thermal detonaro
A single Class-A thermal detonator was sufficient to cause the collapse of Xizor's Palace, a huge 102-story building on Coruscant, when Lando Calrissian dropped it down the palace's garbage chute into its basement level.

So yeah, they destroy metals too. I'm guessing the Wookieepedia article had some bad wording? (Maybe " any material that did not easily/readily conduct heat or thermal energy")

Here's the problem though, the GE is like a modern Government, if the people are taxed too much then they will grumble about it. Taxed a little too much and they'll complain. Taxed to the point that the GE will have to tax them to fight the IOM and they will just say "Screw You GE" and do something about it. Then you'd star to hear of things like the Bespine Blaster Gas Party?


Except that the GE is a dictatorship, (A fact established in the very first movie when the Death Star destroys Alderaan because Grand Moff Tarkin felt like it) and when people protest anything they get jailed, shot, tortured or have capital ships land on them Hell, the Empire began with the sistematic genocide of the Jedi Order. In Shadows Of The Empire page 167 we have Gholondreine-β who didn't like some of the changes the GE was making.

"The oceans of Gholondreine-b had been sucked down to the last molecule of saline liquid, then transported by a fleet of massive Imperial freighters to an orbital catalysis plant near Coruscant. Economy hadn't been the motivating factor- it was more expensive to ship that amount of water than to synthesize it- but punishment had been."

Seriously Skirmisher, you sound like you don't even know what the Galactic Empire is.

Prove those numbers of planets.

While to the IOM's troops it would be more like... well, I can't think of a war that would be this easy going in comparison to the wars that the IOM usually faces.


Seriously Skirmisher, you keep ignoring the fact that the IoM takes months to get anywhere. They won't be able to even leave their home galaxy before the GE forces start attacking them on their ground, draining their resources while the GE has months in advance to replace loses, build up ships, train men and assemble battle droids.

How is the war going to be easy for them if they have to stay on the defensive against ships that can slip past their defenses and hit bases on the other side of their territory before they can even respond?


There it is! Supply and Demand. I'm saying that if Blaster Gas was so plentiful then everyone who owned a gun would have a Blaster. It would be easy to make a blaster, easy to power it, but the key component to them is the Gas, and for some reason that is Expensive.

But wait, that hasn't happened, so I guess the Supply isn't as great as you say.


Blasters.
"The most commonly used weapon in the galaxy..."
"Some have used blasters ever since their youth"
"The most common personal weapon in the galaxy by the rise of the Empire, blasters were often used not only by military personnel, but by civilians as protection."


Slugthrowers were considered by many to be a primitive, inferior technology when compared to blasters, and were often used by those without access to better weapons, such as primitive cultures.


Skirmisher, you are arguing that a type of weaon that has been in use for 35,000 years (and probably more) and is soo common that the only people who can't use them are civilizations who can't even build blasters, uses rare, hard to find ammunition, and that the supply of the gas used to make blasters work will be exhausted in one war?

*vulgarity* it.
Prove the gas is expensive. Show quotes.
Show the amount of people who own something besides a blaster, and show how significant a portion of the galaxy they are.

#63 Ruinus

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:31 PM

Yes why don't they? That would AT LEAST bring them up to Imperial Guard Standards of Weaponry.


Because the GE got along fine fielding less powerful weaponry, as they had no one to fight on an equal footing with.

Posted Image


Ok, point taken. A bit iffy to me, but I'll accept it.

Yes, Yes, ~800 Teratons, but your calcs have all the energy running only through ONE Heavy Turbo Laser turret, meaning only that one turret could shoot. A better example is the actually stated numbers of 800 Teratons per second, not per shot. The way you word it, is as if Every Turbo Laser on the entirety of that damned ship could put out that kind of power all at once. That would be Incorrect.


Yes, the firepower would be routed through the main heavy turrets that usually flank the superstructure on a star destroyer. The firepower can be routed through one gun for 800 TT per second, or split apart through all the guns (for instance, 2 guns with 400 TTs per second each). Nowhere in the quote does it say the firepower is being routed through one and one gun only, it simply says that it can divert that much energy to it's guns.

Wow that's kind of wrong.


It's called an ice moon. I'm going on "It's made entirely out of ice." not "Yeah, it's only covered 30 km in ice."

#64 Ruinus

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 03:33 PM

!!!SHORTER POSTS PLEASE!!!


I was hoping to do that when I first posted the Wookieepedia quote on the speeds of hyperdrive, but even that got drawn out into a long debate.
Believe me, even I get tired of looking up Wookieepedia for an hour to look up stuff, if this could be solved fast and easily then it would.

#65 ricrery

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 06:51 PM

Well, with this "it takes months to get anywhere for the IoM crap, I think I'll bring up the "the GE needs a map to go anywhere deal". Besides, Warp space has probably reached the SW galaxy by now. Suggesting the IoM get a big big big advantage before their disadvantage.

#66 Ruinus

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 08:17 PM

Well, with this "it takes months to get anywhere for the IoM crap, I think I'll bring up the "the GE needs a map to go anywhere deal". Besides, Warp space has probably reached the SW galaxy by now. Suggesting the IoM get a big big big advantage before their disadvantage.


It takes months for the IoM to get anywhere even within WH40K itself, a fact that Skirmisher established himself when he posted the Warp travel times and speeds. Either way, the GE can just spam probe droids till it's hearts content, it will take a while, but not as much as the IoM will.

This is your set up, and ultimately the conditions are all up to you, but why should the IoM get a "big big big advantage"?

#67 ricrery

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 01:28 AM

Okay, let's see... there's a giant Hivefleet blocking said galaxy, me thinks the probes will take a while to get around it. Plus, all of those Imperial defenses that notice it will blow it into a million pieces, hell Han Solo easily destroyed one. Me thinks they won't get a good map. There's also the "they don't know what planets are important part" that I'll leave out, just because that would ruined the debate.

#68 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 06:29 AM

How can you make claims on "he is still better than what he would have been just starting out."? He blocks 3 out of 4 shots that the remote fires at him, both with and without the visor blocking his views. That's a 75% success rate based on a very small sampling. How do you know the success rate for people barely training in blaster deflection?

Marked improvement? This is the first time we see him even attempt blaster deflection, so how can you judge that he has marked improvement?

Either way, the point still stands. He says they will arrive by 0200, which still means they will arrive the same day. The specific amount of hours is irrelevant to our main discussion, which is that their FTL drives can allow for travel across their galaxy in less than a day.

Yet, there is still no conclusive proof that they arrived in under a days worth of travel. There are many points to prove that it did take far longer than you seem to think though, and only one point to vaguely prove otherwise, that I can also disprove.

1) When we see Luke training with the remote, he blocks about three of the four shots that we see on film, before he puts the helmet on. However there is about a minute stretch were we do not see Luke and the remote, but can still just barely hear the hum of his lightsaber occasionally. At no time during his off camera training did we hear him yelp in pain from a failed parry, and while the lightsaber and the blasts deflected might not have been heard, you can bet that him yelling in pain would have been. Then there would be the fact that Han would have pointed and laughed at Luke had he missed a couple. Meaning that there is a vague possibility that Luke’s average is significantly higher than just 75%.

2) A lightsaber is an extremely dangerous weapon, able to cleave limbs off with just the flick of a wrist. You would think that like the Samurai who train extensively with bokken before ever wielding a Katana, Obi wan would have at least taught Luke how not to kill himself or anyone nearby before continuing his training. This alone would have required time, and only after that could he train with a remote.

3) Lets run an experiment… grab a broomstick about 115 to 130 cm in length. Tape the “hilt” of the broomestick to give you grip but make sure that you have about a 100cm “blade”. Now grab a bucket of golf balls, and get someone to throw them at you (try for softball speeds) while you try and deflect them with your improvised “lightsaber”.
Note: your going to want safety equipment for this, so that you don’t get hit in the face or any other vital area with these balls…
Only then can you tell me how many hours or even Days it would take to get to an average of a 75% deflection rate.

4) As you should know, Hyperspace travel isn’t just one jump from point A to point B. Since ships can only travel in a straight line through Hyperspace they must come out to adjust their course and navigate around stellar obstacles. Based on the usual maps this would have taken the Falcon a bare Minimum of three jumps to get to Alderran. At least one to get from Tattoine to the shipping lane, the shipping lane itself and then assuming that the shipping lane doesn’t have various stops, one more to Alderran. However this could have easily taken many more jumps. So by “0200” that could mean that, yes that last leg of the trip was inside of a day, but that was just the small last leg to go from the shipping lane to Alderran.


compromise
Here, I’ll compromise and say that the trip took about 2 to 3 days (avg: 2.5 days). Various maps that actually give measurable distances have given me about ~42,000 light years between Tatooine and Alderaan, and this can be confirmed to be in the ballpark with trigonometry using the two planets canon distance to the core and the average angle given in official maps. So that would put the Falcon at 16,800 Light years per day. However going by the Canon “drive rating”, the Falcon with it’s 0.5 would be four times faster than ISDs and SSDs that have a rating of 2. Meaning that these Imperial warships would only go at about 4200 light years per day, which is only 12 times faster than IOM Warships.


Completely incorrect, as it would still fall under C-canon, hence, still part of the Star Wars continuity. Also, that Ashoka is not there for the last episode is irrelevant also, since we do not know her final fate, whether she lives/leaves/disappears/exiled or whatever. Since her final fate has not yet occured her absence in the final episode of the Clone Wars animated series doesn't contradict anything.

Also:
"N is the only level that is not considered canon by Lucasfilm"

Yet that is the eventual fate of at least the last season of the original Clone Wars series where you got your scene. Besides the majority of the canon problems it has come from those final episodes of the series. Also, note that Anaken was present at the battle of Belderone that happened shortly before the battle of Courescant, this from the Prelude Book to Ep3 “Labyrinth of Evil” which would undoubtedly hold a higher canon slot than the questionable Clone Wars cartoon. This would mean that with the information they gathered from the separatists about the location of Darth Sidius being on Corescant, both Anakin and Obi Wan would have traveled back to Corescant at best speed, while Sidius plotted the Battle of Corescant to cover himself from this leaked information. This would effectively render your scene from Clone Wars as N Canon while maintaining my observation that Star Wars hyperspace travel is not as fast as you claim.


So the IoM, which moves slower than the GE, would purposefully destroy it's own planets, and you still think it would win?
So, what planets does it burn? Factory worlds? Farm worlds? What does it do when some planets start starving out under blockades?

No, I mean that once the IOM reaches GE space they Exterminatus worlds that they do not need to further their Crusade, thereby depleting the GE of it’s mineral and economic wealth as well as it’s means of food production. To do this they would need to build up a massive Crusade fleet separate of the home defense fleet numbering in the hundreds of millions of Warships and founding about 400,000,000 to 1,000,000,000 new regiments of Imperial Guard. Estimated time would be around a decade two at the most (Actually one of my points below gets them a a new full crusade fleet in less than a year), and yes I know that the Galactic Empire would be sending wave after wave of fleets and troops at the IOM.

They face a couple of problems, they would first have to map the Milky Way, hard to do when your droids have no way of communicating back the co-ordinates of the vary rare successful jumps. The GE would probably loose tens of billions of these specialized and costly probe droids for every 5,000 light years mapped into the Galaxy. Then once they’ve actually found an Imperial world, (let say one that the Imperium actually cares about) they would have to face it’s Planetary defenders AND whatever detachment of the Imperial Sector Fleet that would be stationed above the planet at any given time. IOM Sector Fleets consist of 50 to 75 large capitol ships of Cruiser to Battleship weights, with approximately 30 to 50 squadrons (~3 ships/squad) of escort class and light cruiser types, with many thousands of smaller vessels (ie Fighters/shuttles/etc.). Source

So let’s say that One Full GE sector group (1 SSD, 24 ISD, 3000-4000 smaller craft (Mostly composed of fighter craft/shuttles/gunboats)) managed to beat a path up to this world. They would find their a** getting hammered in a very one sided way. They would face a couple defence stations capable of repelling multiple ISDs, as well as a few Dozen warships easily comparable to an ISD. Those would only be the systems ships and the fleet detachments Escort vessels, there are then the Cruisers, (lets say 2) that could easily hold off the SSD long enough for additional fleet assets to show up in system. Oh, I forgot about those ~3500 smaller fighter craft, well IOM point defense turrets could easily handle them, or let them through since they wouldn’t be able to do anything.

#69 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 06:35 AM

“No, Battleships are reported to be a about a dozen or more Kilometres in length, it's just that their Shield Bubbles extend out to that far, rather than hug the hulls of the ships like Star Wars.”

Are you sure? That sounds VERY odd, so I would like to ask for a source on this.

Years ago I could name you some sources… but I don’t have the books and apparently the Internet has been scrubbed of all reference to them. So the only thing I have to go on is that in BFG the little bases of the ships represent the shields, or at least the area that would be dangerous to the shields/ship if hit. Weak, I know… Also “consensus” on IOM ship lengths actually has the Battleship class at around 8km in length, except special Command ships which could easily get up to the number of Km that I said, which is why I got the number confused.


Because the game mechanics are just that, game mechanics. In the novels you have very different things going on, with space marines dying in one hit, being ripped apart, IG soldiers taking on bigger enemies than they ever could in the games, etc etc.

Actually unless it’s from something very deadly, Space Marines usually don’t go down that fast. Authors that are new to the fiction often get loads of criticism for making Space Marines drop like mooks. They usually then actually do some research and in later works correct their mistakes. Take for instance Dan Abnett, one very early story had Gaunt and his regiment fight various chaos cultists lead by a couple Iron Warrior Chaos Space Marines. He dropped them like mooks to some sustained heavy fire. He received criticism from fans and GW alike and the next time a Chaos Space Marine loomed it’s head it took much more to put it down. Still the criticism came in and the latest Chaos Marines to show their ugly heads in his books took very Desperate and Heroic actions to take them out. IIRC it took a bundle of 5 to 12 Demo Charges to kill one Marine, and Demo Charges are designed to take out Tanks and other hardened targets. Another one was KIA after getting hit with a close range headshot from a lasgun using a “Hotshot” power clip which basically pumps all 60+ shots into just one, meaning based on average weapons calcs, it puts that single shot at around several hundred Megajoules straight to the guys face.

The point is that Game Mechanics are overridden in 40K table top because at least that has books and stories. There is no such thing for Battle Fleet Gothic, at least not on the level that you can get actual numbers from. So the higher Canon would be based around the Game Mechanics.


And how long would this news take to travel? It would still take months to reach the entirity of the IoM, and then months for them to even reach the SW galaxy and get anywhere important there.

Telepathic Communication travels at around 10x the speed of Warp Travel from the sources I’ve found. However I cannot re-find those sources, so you don’t have to take that x10. ButI can tell you that it is many times faster than actual ship travel, confirmed in any material regarding it. So news would only take a couple of months at the most to reach every ears in the IOM.


It doesn't say what setting the A280 is required to slice apart men (why would it be reputed to be able to if any soldiers could easily check?)

Why do you assume the Astartes are going to be everyone? They are outnumbered by the IG (who would be likely to be doing the greatest amount of fighting).

1) A280’s, congratulations you now have the calibre of weapon that comes Standard to all Guardsmen. Happy Hunting with them Flashlights!
2) Guardsmen during the Great Crusade with the Emperor did just that, they Guarded. That’s what their purpose was, and they could do it because when the Emperor was around and when the other Legions were loyal they had enough Space Marines to do all the Attacking jobs. The Guard was the Shield of the Imperium and the Astrates the Sword.
3) I’ve almost forgot about the Legios Titanicus, most Space Marine planetary assaults are accompanied by (as the name implies) legions of Titans. These God-Machines would easily lay waste to however many troops the GE decided to pump out in defence of its planets. But the Titans aren’t just relegated to attack, many imperial worlds have at least One of the smaller 40 story tall models. In fact there were Titans active in the poorer sectors of the Galaxy on planets at the far reaches of the Imperium. The GEs only equivalent would be an AT-AT, and even a small Titan would easily overpower one of those. Also did I forget, all models have some strength of Void Shield, giving them far more battlefield longevity than anything in the GEs arsenal.

#70 Skirmisher

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Posted 02 September 2009 - 06:36 AM

Prove those numbers of planets.

As shown by the Segmentiums of the Imperium the IOM stretches over 80% of the Galaxy.
The Milky Way has 200 to 400 (Avg: 300B) billion stars, current estimates place that about 40% to 60% (avg: 50%) of stars can develop some type of terrestrial planet. We can stop there because the IOM can put people just about anywhere they want, they have the Tech to do it, and that would give a number of 127.5 billion worlds under the Imperium. But let’s still go further with planets that could presumably support life, atmosphere, magnetosphere, etceterasphere. Current theories predict that 0.5% or more of these planets would have these conditions, meaning that 637 million planets in the IOM could support life. That’s a very bare minimum considering that it implies Only one planet per star system and that there are no moons or asteroid belts. Meaning that the number of planets that the IOM controls would be much greater. Factoring in a combination of lifeless planets farmed for minerals and life sustaining planets farmed for men and food, the numbers that I gave are entirely reasonable.


Seriously Skirmisher, you keep ignoring the fact that the IoM takes months to get anywhere. They won't be able to even leave their home galaxy before the GE forces start attacking them on their ground, draining their resources while the GE has months in advance to replace loses, build up ships, train men and assemble battle droids.

How is the war going to be easy for them if they have to stay on the defensive against ships that can slip past their defenses and hit bases on the other side of their territory before they can even respond?

Actually the Resources drain would be in the opposite direction. If the GE attacked the IOM on their own turf, then the GE would have to spend the fuel and energy cost of waging a war into a galaxy that they know nothing about that is filled with extremely hostile peoples and creatures. Once they managed to find prime IOM targets they would then have to actually manage to permanently kill the IOMs warships, which is not an easy task, as even long dead space hulks can be refitted and ready for action in a couple months. And SW ships just don’t have the firepower to even cripple the larger warships of the IOM unless they commit a large percentage of Fleet resources to fighting one.

Even then guess what, the raw materials that the GE doesn’t limp home with would remain in IOM territory. Now how many expeditions could the GE launch if each time they sent ships in, barely any came back? Meanwhile the IOM would have all these extra ship carcasses littering its sectors, each one could be dragged back to an IOM shipyard and refitted with IOM technology providing the IOM with yet more ships. And then there’s another advantage, the set-up has the Emperor of Mankind alive and well with all his sons. That would mean the IOM isn’t as afraid of everything as it is in the current game timeline. The Emperor himself with an army of scientists would probably inspect every inch of every dead GE ship. Then he would determine that the Hyperdrive was without Chaos Taint and proclaim that every ship in the Imperium be fitted with one at soonest convenience. Gradually the Warp Drive would be phased out and the Hyperdrive would become the new mode of travel for the IOM’s warships. Fully evening out the playing field. And yes the Emperor would do that, before Horus interrupted him he was attempting to build an Imperial Webway gate akin to the Eldar. The Webway being many times faster and many times safer than the Warp. He would say the word and all IOM ships would have working hyperdrives inside of a year, because the Emperors word is Law.


It's called an ice moon. I'm going on "It's made entirely out of ice." not "Yeah, it's only covered 30 km in ice."

Yet all evidence of actual Ice Moons show that they are actual Moons that are covered in Ice and water. If it were called a large moon shaped chunk/ball of ice then I would say that “Yes, that is completely made of ice.” But that is not the case. Your quote says “Ice Moon” meaning of a similar type to that of other Ice Moons, an example of which we have in our vary solar system: Europa the Ice Moon of Jupiter! Which has an Ice depth of 15-30km, a liquid ocean underneath and a rocky surface below that. Your quote went on to say that it only Melted it, not boiled it away to nothingness, meaning that that ship would have only melted the Ice and stopped when it hit the liquid water beneath, never touching the rock surface below the water.

#71 Ruinus

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 03:44 PM

Okay, let's see... there's a giant Hivefleet blocking said galaxy, me thinks the probes will take a while to get around it. Plus, all of those Imperial defenses that notice it will blow it into a million pieces, hell Han Solo easily destroyed one. Me thinks they won't get a good map. There's also the "they don't know what planets are important part" that I'll leave out, just because that would ruined the debate.


The Tyranids were at the galaxy before the Horus Heresy? Show me some proof, as it was my understanding that they only recently showed up.

Han Solo didn't destroy the probe droid, it self destructed.

#72 Ruinus

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 05:40 PM

Posted Image
By ruinus at 2009-09-03

Nonsense, the hum of the lightsaber is all that we hear. At no point is the sound of the remote firing or the sound of a bolt being deflected hear. Hence Luke and the remote were doing nothing. (In fact, you cannot hear the sound of the remote moving about either. Perhaps he was simply practicing parry positions?)

Either way, we hear nothing except the lightsaber hum.

Obi wan would have at least taught Luke how not to kill himself or anyone nearby before continuing his training. This alone would have required time, and only after that could he train with a remote.

Only then can you tell me how many hours or even Days it would take to get to an average of a 75% deflection rate.


Or Luke is a fast learner, unless you also think Obi-wan taught Luke how to trust the Force at the precise moment needed to launch a missile down a 5 meter wide exhaust shaft. He didn't, all he did was say "Use the Force" and "Remember, a Jedi feels the Forces working through him."

Your 4th assumption is made irrelevant by the map above. Provided by the Behind the Magic hyperdrive charts.

Here, I'll compromise and say that the trip took about 2 to 3 days (avg: 2.5 days)


No comprimise is needed. The trip took 7 hours.

Also, I found this during my lookings for more examples to cement the idea of pangalactic travel in a few hours. I'll try to cut it down:

Queen's ship lands on Tatooine in the early morning.
Qui-gon and co meet Anakin, sandstorm begins, Anakin invites them into their home.
Queen's ship receives transmission from Naboo asking for help. Obi-wan warns her not to respond, since it is clearly a trap. The Queen obviously doesn't listen and responds, thus giving Palpatine and Maul a trace on her location.
Anakin and co have lunch. He tells them he can win them new parts at the podrace tomorrow.
Darth Maul leaves for Tatooine.
Nightime, whole "No Jedi has over 20,000 midichlorians" scene.

Next day:

Darth Maul lands near dawn/dusk/early morning.
Anakin wins pod-race, he earns his freedom and leaves.
They are attacked by Darth Maul.

The entire trip, from lunch to dusk, takes half a day. The Scimitar has a 1.5 class hyperdrive rating, meaning that it is slower than the Millenium Falcon. This makes sense with the BTM chart, where the Millenium Falcon took 7 hours, the Scimitar took 12.

Also, note that Anaken was present at the battle of Belderone that happened shortly before the battle of Courescant, this from the Prelude Book to Ep3 “Labyrinth of Evil” which would undoubtedly hold a higher canon slot than the questionable Clone Wars cartoon.


Battle of Belderone

Followed by:
Siege of Saleucami
Battle of Felucia
Battle of Ywllandr
Battle of Mygeeto
Battle of unidentified planet (enslaved species)
Battle of Orto
Battle of Purple Planet
Battle of unidentified planet (clones surrender)
Battle of Bal'demnic
Second Battle of Tythe
Battle of Murkhana
Battle of Nevlaan
Battle of Coruscant

That's what the listing on Wookieepedia says, and Leeland Chee agrees with this listing, here.

However, reading up on the events of Labyrinth of Evil, and the overviews of the battles themselves, it seems that the New Essential Chronology and Labyrinth of Evil both support the view that Anakin and Obi-wan both visisted Nelvaan before Tythe.

This, however, is still not a problem. Both Nevlaan and Nevlaan are close to each other, and both land near Tatooine, as seen on this map.

So either way, the difference is small, and aboard the Integrity Anakin and Obi-wan leave Tythe and head for the Battle of Coruscant. which, by most accounts lasts a "long, long day."

The battle also seems to have started during the day time and equally ended during the daytime (the point in the movie where the Invisible Hand crashes unto Coruscant.

No, I mean that once the IOM reaches GE space...

Estimated time would be around a decade two at the most...


This would never happen then. While the IoM is taking a decade to do all this, the GE has already built up billions of ships (should I post the ship construction calc?), reached the Milky Way galaxy, mapped it, and began attacking. The IoM then has to shift to defensive measures while the GE continous to churn out ships and attack.

That is why I think you are not understanding why the FTL on the GE side makes this a win for them. While the GE can reach the Milky Way galaxy in a what, 2-3 days? (probably faster, considering the SW galaxy is 20,000 light years wider than ours) while the IoM takes months. This means that the GE can attack first, establish bases in the MW first, have more prep time to gether information, get star maps, and plan attacks.

This also means that the GE can send back communications to the SW galaxy faster, ordering more equipment, ships, men, whatever.

This ALSO means that they can pick undefended worlds to attack, and then leave before any form of retalation arrives.

Simply put, your plans for the IoM attacking and burning SW worlds never happens, because they don't have the time to be able to reach the SW galaxy.

#73 Ruinus

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 06:11 PM

They face a couple of problems, they would first have to map the Milky Way, hard to do when your droids have no way of communicating back the co-ordinates of the vary rare successful jumps.

The GE would probably loose tens of billions of these specialized and costly probe droids for every 5,000 light years mapped into the Galaxy


Hyperwave
Hypercomm

Why would the jumps be rarely successfull? Simply scan out to maximum range, jump ahead, scan and repeat.

Prove these are costly and specialized. The probe droid page mentions nothing of the sort.
I want sources, I want quotes.

Then once they’ve actually found an Imperial world, (let say one that the Imperium actually cares about) they would have to face it’s Planetary defenders AND whatever detachment of the Imperial Sector Fleet that would be stationed above the planet at any given time. IOM


Read your own link. It says:
"Because of the vast space that requires policing, the Battlefleet is normally split into detachments consisting of one or two cruisers, accompanied by a squadron of escorts."

So it's not like the faster GE ships (you know, the ones with more time to prepare) will blunder into an entire fleet.

So let’s say that One Full GE sector group (1 SSD, 24 ISD, 3000-4000 smaller craft (Mostly composed of fighter craft/shuttles/gunboats))


Don't mince words, the quote said:
"The RotJ novel states that the Empire is made up thousands of sectors. ? From the same G canon novel a typical sector group is 1 SSD (Com ship 6Km) and 24 ISD plus thousands of lesser war ships. "

Warships do not include starfighters/shuttles or gunboats.

They would face a couple defence stations capable of repelling multiple ISDs, as well as a few Dozen warships easily comparable to an ISD.


While the first section has yet to be proven, I accept the second part, as most of the fan calcs that I've seen put IoM and the GE warships on par with each other. Generally, I've heard it described as "Pound for pound, GE ships are stronger, it's simply that IoM ships are usually much bigger than GE ships."

Those would only be the systems ships and the fleet detachments Escort vessels, there are then the Cruisers, (lets say 2) that could easily hold off the SSD long enough for additional fleet assets to show up in system. Oh, I forgot about those ~3500 smaller fighter craft, well IOM point defense turrets could easily handle them, or let them through since they wouldn’t be able to do anything.


Your reasoning for cruisers being this strong?

Seriously Skirmisher, what's up with the great amounts of unsources uncalced claims you are making? I know WH40K is a ridiculous over the top series, but that doesn't mean "WH40K is stronger ALWAYS!" claims can go unsourced.

There it is again, your lack of tacking into account that the GE ships can simply arrive, blast the planet and then leave before any sort of reinforcements arrive.

How can the IoM ever attack the GE fleets, if the IoM can never catch up to them?

#74 Ruinus

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 06:33 PM

Years ago I could name you some sources… but I don’t have the books and apparently the Internet has been scrubbed of all reference to them. So the only thing I have to go on is that in BFG the little bases of the ships represent the shields, or at least the area that would be dangerous to the shields/ship if hit. Weak, I know… Also “consensus” on IOM ship lengths actually has the Battleship class at around 8km in length, except special Command ships which could easily get up to the number of Km that I said, which is why I got the number confused.


I'm not buying it.
I've read some books of WH40K and never are shields mentioned to extand that far from normal ships. Even if what you say was true, since you can't find any sources to back it up, I will not accept it.

Hell, I've even tried finding some sources for you, and cannot find them. The Lexicanum site and the WH40K wiki don't show up shields at all, thought I know they exist. Void shields I think they are called.

It's nothing against you, nor am I calling you a liar. It is simply a matter of principle that I cannot accept unsourced arguments.

The point is that Game Mechanics are overridden in 40K table top because at least that has books and stories. There is no such thing for Battle Fleet Gothic, at least not on the level that you can get actual numbers from. So the higher Canon would be based around the Game Mechanics.


There are books, however, that show space battles, engagements and maneuvers.

Telepathic Communication travels at around 10x the speed of Warp Travel from the sources I’ve found. However I cannot re-find those sources, so you don’t have to take that x10. ButI can tell you that it is many times faster than actual ship travel, confirmed in any material regarding it. So news would only take a couple of months at the most to reach every ears in the IOM.


It makes sense that the telepathic communication is faster than warp travel itself, yet the problem is still the same. The communication may get there relatively fast, but the reinforcements themselves do not.

2) Guardsmen during the Great Crusade with the Emperor did just that, they Guarded. That’s what their purpose was, and they could do it because when the Emperor was around and when the other Legions were loyal they had enough Space Marines to do all the Attacking jobs. The Guard was the Shield of the Imperium and the Astrates the Sword.
3) I’ve almost forgot about the Legios Titanicus, most Space Marine planetary assaults are accompanied by (as the name implies) legions of Titans. These God-Machines would easily lay waste to however many troops the GE decided to pump out in defence of its planets. But the Titans aren’t just relegated to attack, many imperial worlds have at least One of the smaller 40 story tall models. In fact there were Titans active in the poorer sectors of the Galaxy on planets at the far reaches of the Imperium. The GEs only equivalent would be an AT-AT, and even a small Titan would easily overpower one of those. Also did I forget, all models have some strength of Void Shield, giving them far more battlefield longevity than anything in the GEs arsenal.


Since I'm getting slightly frustrated by the amount of things that you are saying (and hoping I will take on trust, since you aren't actually bothering to put any links around for the vast majority of your claims) I've looked them up for you.

Imperial Guard
"The Imperial Guard is the primary fighting force of the Imperium, "

Also the AT-AT is a assault transport vehicle. It is not a dedicated attack vehicle like the Titans are. The A6 Juggernaut can give us a ballpark of the AT-AT (and any dedicated assault vehicles) strenght:
"Against an unshielded target, a Juggernaut could deliver the heat of a nuclear bomb into a small area."

#75 Ruinus

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 07:27 PM

As shown by the Segmentiums of the Imperium the IOM stretches over 80% of the Galaxy.
The Milky Way has 200 to 400 (Avg: 300B) billion stars, current estimates place that about 40% to 60% (avg: 50%) of stars can develop some type of terrestrial planet. We can stop there because the IOM can put people just about anywhere they want, they have the Tech to do it, and that would give a number of 127.5 billion worlds under the Imperium. But let’s still go further with planets that could presumably support life, atmosphere, magnetosphere, etceterasphere. Current theories predict that 0.5% or more of these planets would have these conditions, meaning that 637 million planets in the IOM could support life. That’s a very bare minimum considering that it implies Only one planet per star system and that there are no moons or asteroid belts. Meaning that the number of planets that the IOM controls would be much greater. Factoring in a combination of lifeless planets farmed for minerals and life sustaining planets farmed for men and food, the numbers that I gave are entirely reasonable.


Milky Way galaxy
"The Imperium exists within the Milky Way galaxy, a large spiral with a total mass of about 200-400 billion stars. The Imperial worlds are scattered throughout most of this galaxy, although it counts only a tiny fraction of the galaxy's stars as its territory."

WH40K wiki
The Imperium is the largest and most powerful political entity in the galaxy, consisting of at least a million worlds, which are dispersed across most of the Milky Way galaxy.

If you have sources that prove otherwise, show them.

Actually the Resources drain would be in the opposite direction. If the GE attacked the IOM on their own turf, then the GE would have to spend the fuel and energy cost of waging a war into a galaxy that they know nothing about that is filled with extremely hostile peoples and creatures. Once they managed to find prime IOM targets they would then have to actually manage to permanently kill the IOMs warships, which is not an easy task, as even long dead space hulks can be refitted and ready for action in a couple months. And SW ships just don’t have the firepower to even cripple the larger warships of the IOM unless they commit a large percentage of Fleet resources to fighting one.


No, they wouldn't. The GE ships can attack the least defended areas, destroy those planets, and them leave. They'd have to fight, at best, a few scattered defenders here and there, and might occasionally do all out offensives against fleets. This means that worlds that contribute to production of war resources are being destroyed across the strecth of Imperium space, and only on rare occasions could a counterattack be mounted.

Also, WTF is "permanently kill the IoMs warships" mean?
Prove that SW ships don't have the firepower to crippler the larger ships.

Even then guess what, the raw materials that the GE doesn’t limp home with would remain in IOM territory. Now how many expeditions could the GE launch if each time they sent ships in, barely any came back? Meanwhile the IOM would have all these extra ship carcasses littering its sectors, each one could be dragged back to an IOM shipyard and refitted with IOM technology providing the IOM with yet more ships. And then there’s another advantage, the set-up has the Emperor of Mankind alive and well with all his sons. That would mean the IOM isn’t as afraid of everything as it is in the current game timeline. The Emperor himself with an army of scientists would probably inspect every inch of every dead GE ship. Then he would determine that the Hyperdrive was without Chaos Taint and proclaim that every ship in the Imperium be fitted with one at soonest convenience.


World Devastators
The GE wouldn't have to waste it's own resources, it could simply plop those down in asteroid fields or uncolonized planets and churn out fleets using the resources of the Milky Way.

Also, you severly overestimate how long it would take to retrofit an entire fleet with an alien technology, let alone start building your own.

Oh wait, you know what?

The GE uses it's superios FTL to attack a relatively undefended planet. It gathers all the lasguns, vortex grenades, Titan models, tanks etc etc that it can carry, and runs back home. The next time the GE shows up, all it's soldiers are Dark troopers sporting lasguns, supported by SW-Titans, LeMan Russ tanks and all manner of reverse engineered technology.

Yet all evidence of actual Ice Moons show that they are actual Moons that are covered in Ice and water. If it were called a large moon shaped chunk/ball of ice then I would say that “Yes, that is completely made of ice.” But that is not the case. Your quote says “Ice Moon” meaning of a similar type to that of other Ice Moons, an example of which we have in our vary solar system: Europa the Ice Moon of Jupiter! Which has an Ice depth of 15-30km, a liquid ocean underneath and a rocky surface below that. Your quote went on to say that it only Melted it, not boiled it away to nothingness, meaning that that ship would have only melted the Ice and stopped when it hit the liquid water beneath, never touching the rock surface below the water.


Iapetus: A moon made 80% out of ice, well over 1,400 KM wide.
Mimas
Tethys
Dione
Rhea

I'd go on, but it seems that most of Saturns moons have most of their mass as ice.
The rings of Saturn are almost entirely made up of ice, it would be easy to imagine 1,000 km ice moons floating about, probably close to planets similar to Saturn.

#76 Nova Force Nova

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 09:04 PM

"Dunno. They should be here..." *shrugs, and grabs a hotdog*



"This is getting good."

*takes a huge bite out of his hot dog*

"Keep it up, you two!"

#77 ricrery

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 09:27 PM

Dark Troopers, before I bring in Space Marines and Power weapons (which are much deadlier than a lightsaber) that would slice em apart, let's talk about Psykers who dominate their force counterpart.

#78 Ruinus

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 09:42 PM

Dark Troopers, before I bring in Space Marines and Power weapons (which are much deadlier than a lightsaber) that would slice em apart, let's talk about Psykers who dominate their force counterpart.


I rarely, if ever, attempt to talk about the Force Users the GE employs, since that is more of a "This one particular Force user was strong" or "This one class of Psyker could overpower a weaker class of Force User." Either way, in the end, it is quite irrelevant, since they would show up in insufficient numbers to really affect a way.

BTW, what age of the Imperium is this set in? Pre-Horus Heresy isn't very specific? Dark Age of Technology (in which psyker's only start showing up at the end of) or Age of Strife? Earlier?

#79 ricrery

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 10:16 PM

Shortly before Horus got possessed.

#80 Ruinus

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Posted 03 September 2009 - 10:40 PM

Mmmh, odd.
Lasgun:
"The standard pattern is known as the 'M-Galaxy' style although hundreds of thousands of variants exist... The M-Galaxy was first put into use in 2546789.M35."

Timeline

So, the lasgun doesn't exist for another 5,000 years? Neither do plasma guns? I'm assuming that's what the M35 means (the millenium it is introduced into service), at least that's what it seems like for the lasgun.

Land raiders and Land speeders don't exist yet either. Or at least, the knowledge to build them.

This entire timeline is interesting, I'm reading over it to see exactly what I'm fighting, and it seems that, going by the time you stated "Shortly before Horus got possessed." it sounds like the Imperium was at it's weakest. This page says the Emperor went out and reconquered some planets, "hundreds of thousands", it's not until 3 millenia later that more worlds are conquered? Or, at the very least, a major conquest mission lead by some Ursurs guy. If anyone could point me to some sources that would help me flesh this out, I'd appreciate it. Since some websites I've visited earlier (the Lexicanum and some other wiki) point to the IoM controlling millions of worlds (not billions) and this whole "conquering hundreds of thousands" makes sense to me, given the millions.




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