Jump to content


Photo

Death Star vs. 3 Battlebarges


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 04 May 2011 - 07:12 PM

Death Star: http://starwars.wiki...wiki/Death_Star
Posted Image

Battle Barges Litany of Fury, Eternal Crusader, and Caesar: http://warhammer40k....ki/Battle_Barge

Litany of Fury: Posted Image

Eternal Crusader:Posted Image

Caeser:Posted Image (I'm aware that this isn't Caesar so I picked the best battle barge image i could find.

All vessels have their full capbablities including the super laser and boarding torpedoes.

#2 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 04 May 2011 - 07:24 PM

The Death Star wins, because the new novel Death Star introduced the DS's ability to fire on capital ships, when it destroyed a few Rebel capital ships in a battle prior to the one at Yavin.

#3 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 04 May 2011 - 09:58 PM

The Death Star wins, because the new novel Death Star introduced the DS's ability to fire on capital ships, when it destroyed a few Rebel capital ships in a battle prior to the one at Yavin.


But what if the fleet manages to severely damage the dish before it can get off a second shot?

#4 shellsbut

shellsbut

    Nuking the site from orbit

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada, thats all you get

Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:00 PM

No contest, Deathstar easy win

#5 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:15 PM

No contest, Deathstar easy win


What if the battle barges do an exterminautus on the firing dish of the DS?

#6 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 04 May 2011 - 10:17 PM

But what if the fleet manages to severely damage the dish before it can get off a second shot?


Even if the 3 battlebarges somehow hurt the superlaser dish (which I doubt, as the shields on that thing are ridiculous, it took mountain sized chunks of Alderaan slamming into it without worry), the DS still has thousands of guns on it's surface:

Death Star:
However, given the surface-to-vacuum defenses, the number of fighters, turbolaser batteries, charged-particle blasters, magnetic railguns, proton torpedo banks, ion cannons, and a host of other protective devices, no naval ship of any size would be even a remote thread.



#7 shellsbut

shellsbut

    Nuking the site from orbit

  • CBUB Match Judges
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,583 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada, thats all you get

Posted 05 May 2011 - 06:04 PM

What if the battle barges do an exterminautus on the firing dish of the DS?



You cant really get through the Deathstars sheilds, nothing has been able to.

#8 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 05 May 2011 - 06:41 PM

You cant really get through the Deathstars sheilds, nothing has been able to.


That's because there is no other ship in the SW universe that can really measure up to the kind of firepower necessary to do enough damage. Cyclonic torpedoes are powerful enough to shatter the crust of a planet and destabilize it's core. A few volleys would probably be enough to bring down it's shields, in which case two stage cyclonic torpedoes could be used to blast apart the death star's outer layers and destroy the core.

#9 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 05 May 2011 - 07:03 PM

That's because there is no other ship in the SW universe that can really measure up to the kind of firepower necessary to do enough damage. Cyclonic torpedoes are powerful enough to shatter the crust of a planet and destabilize it's core. A few volleys would probably be enough to bring down it's shields, in which case two stage cyclonic torpedoes could be used to blast apart the death star's outer layers and destroy the core.


No, it wouldn't. The battlebarges, going by some of the calcs I remember, either have teraton level firepower per salvo or petaton level. This is the same as either a Venator at max power to guns (850 teratons) or an ISD at max power to guns (2.2 petatons). The Death Star, on the other hand, had to generate at least 1E+32 joules when it blasted Alderaan, giving it's reactors, a firepower of 23 zettatons (or 23,900,573,613.77 teratons or 23,900,573.61 petatons). Even if only 1% of that was shields, then the DS's shields are 239,005,736.13770002 teraton proof. (There's no reason it can't put that into it's shields either, seeing as in Star Wars the reactor powers everything on a ship).

The Battlebarges aren't going to do anything to it. They show up, one gets blow up immediately by a superlaser blast, the others die due to the DS's defenses.

#10 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 05 May 2011 - 07:32 PM

No, it wouldn't. The battlebarges, going by some of the calcs I remember, either have teraton level firepower per salvo or petaton level. This is the same as either a Venator at max power to guns (850 teratons) or an ISD at max power to guns (2.2 petatons). The Death Star, on the other hand, had to generate at least 1E+32 joules when it blasted Alderaan, giving it's reactors, a firepower of 23 zettatons (or 23,900,573,613.77 teratons or 23,900,573.61 petatons). Even if only 1% of that was shields, then the DS's shields are 239,005,736.13770002 teraton proof. (There's no reason it can't put that into it's shields either, seeing as in Star Wars the reactor powers everything on a ship).

The Battlebarges aren't going to do anything to it. They show up, one gets blow up immediately by a superlaser blast, the others die due to the DS's defenses.


Even in the likelihood that the battlebarges lose, they could still always simply ram into the death star and deploy their space marine legions as they did with the Necron world engine. Say the Ceaser is destroyed by the super laser. It still gives the time for the other two to either deploy their boarding torpedoes at close range or simply ram the ship through the hull. Once inside the Space Marines would be more or less unstoppable and would have no difficulty either seizing control of the death star or critically sabotaging it's reactor.

#11 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 05 May 2011 - 07:37 PM

Or the Death Star jettisons the areas that have been boarded.

But why would they get to close range in the first place?

#12 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 05 May 2011 - 07:46 PM

Or the Death Star jettisons the areas that have been boarded.

But why would they get to close range in the first place?


On second thought i doubt they would need to. All it would take is to teleport a terminator squad into the firing control room, slaughter the operators, and then sabotage the laser itself. Then do the same to other critical areas of the ship, such as the shield generators and the administration areas. With the shields down and the head of command decapitated, the fleet proceeds to bombard the entire station with two stage cyclone missiles, crippling it permanently if not outright destroying it. Or failing that they could simply have pyskers compel the crew to murder each other.

#13 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 05 May 2011 - 08:07 PM

And of course the Battlebarges simply happen to know where all of these important areas are located, and can teleport in with no problem at all. In WH40K does teleporting work through shields?

And the psykers will all be able to mind control the 1.7 million people on the Death Star. Do psykers regularly make Gambia sized groups of people kill themselves?

#14 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 05 May 2011 - 08:26 PM

And of course the Battlebarges simply happen to know where all of these important areas are located, and can teleport in with no problem at all. In WH40K does teleporting work through shields?

And the psykers will all be able to mind control the 1.7 million people on the Death Star. Do psykers regularly make Gambia sized groups of people kill themselves?


A brief scan would easily highlight the critical areas of the ship in a matter of seconds. It wouldn't exactly take a genius to notice that certain areas of the ships produce obscene amounts of energy and tracing the pathways would be a breeze. Even without energy readouts, most ships tend to follow a logical layout and the DS's critical areas would be fairly obvious. Teleporting works through shields in most cases with the one exception of the Necron world engine. If it didn't they wouldn't bother teleporting boarding parties of terminators to other crafts during battle.

All 1.7 million? They wouldn't need to (Although powerful pskers are supposedly capable of making large armies simultaneously explode so I wouldn't rule it out) just the all the important people.

#15 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 05 May 2011 - 08:42 PM

This says Terminator Marines need something called a Teleporter Homer to reach their destination. I'd like to see some examples of Terminators teleporting into enemy ships. I'd like to see that before we can even begin talking about these scans which will show the DS's inner workings in great detail and bypass the jamming fields the DS puts out.

And the psykers know who is important way? Show some evidence of this occuring mid battle.

#16 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 05 May 2011 - 08:54 PM

This says Terminator Marines need something called a Teleporter Homer to reach their destination. I'd like to see some examples of Terminators teleporting into enemy ships. I'd like to see that before we can even begin talking about these scans which will show the DS's inner workings in great detail and bypass the jamming fields the DS puts out.

And the psykers know who is important way? Show some evidence of this occuring mid battle.


It says that they are required to be EFFECTIVE. They can still do it, but it puts the people they are teleporting at significant risk. It would be possible if the battlebarges deployed boarding tubes of marines to plant beacons, but considering the dire nature of the battle they would be forced to take their chances, resulting in many unpleasant casualties. How would the psykers know who is important? With a large number of mind readers working at once, locating the critical engineers, operators and authorities wouldn't take too long. Even a rudimentary scan would likely reveal the critical areas of the ship as they are the ones producing the most energy, such as the core and the super laser firing room. All it takes is to make one engineer shut down the shields or sabotage the laser, and the fleet gains the significant upper hand.

Terminators teleporting onto other ships? "Squads of Terminators are most often employed in spacecraft boarding actions, and although the armaments can be modified for longer-range combats, it is brutal assault for which they are made. Because of their bulk and slow speed, various methods have been developed to make the greatest use of these warriors. Primary among these is to deploy the Terminators straight into the thick of battle via teleportation. Although inaccurate and potentially dangerous, it is often the best way to ensure that the Terminators see combat."

#17 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 05 May 2011 - 09:11 PM

It says that they are required to be EFFECTIVE. They can still do it, but it puts the people they are teleporting at significant risk. It would be possible if the battlebarges deployed boarding tubes of marines to plant beacons,


Which results in those areas being ejected into space.

but considering the dire nature of the battle they would be forced to take their chances, resulting in many unpleasant casualties. How would the psykers know who is important? With a large number of mind readers working at once, locating the critical engineers, operators and authorities wouldn't take too long.


Right, how many psykers are on a battle barge? And they'd be able to sift through the 698,458 of the support/engineering/officer/maintenance crew in the span of this battle? Again, I'd like to see evidence of things like this occuring in WH40k mid battle.

Even a rudimentary scan would likely reveal the critical areas of the ship as they are the ones producing the most energy, such as the core and the super laser firing room. All it takes is to make one engineer shut down the shields or sabotage the laser, and the fleet gains the significant upper hand.


Death Star cutaway:

Yup, they'd be able to see the 30-something KM reactor, but not much else. I'd like some evidence of IoM ships getting scans on enemy ships through EM jamming. Seriously, you are tossing alot of things out here without showing examples of this occuring in WH40K.

Terminators teleporting onto other ships? "Squads of Terminators are most often employed in spacecraft boarding actions, and although the armaments can be modified for longer-range combats, it is brutal assault for which they are made. Because of their bulk and slow speed, various methods have been developed to make the greatest use of these warriors. Primary among these is to deploy the Terminators straight into the thick of battle via teleportation. Although inaccurate and potentially dangerous, it is often the best way to ensure that the Terminators see combat."


So it's innacurate and potentially dangerous, and they don't even know where they are going.

#18 the atom

the atom

    SPOOOON!

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 221 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Your mom's bedroom

Posted 05 May 2011 - 09:28 PM

Which results in those areas being ejected into space.



Right, how many psykers are on a battle barge? And they'd be able to sift through the 698,458 of the support/engineering/officer/maintenance crew in the span of this battle? Again, I'd like to see evidence of things like this occuring in WH40k mid battle.



Death Star cutaway:

Yup, they'd be able to see the 30-something KM reactor, but not much else. I'd like some evidence of IoM ships getting scans on enemy ships through EM jamming. Seriously, you are tossing alot of things out here without showing examples of this occuring in WH40K.



So it's innacurate and potentially dangerous, and they don't even know where they are going.


Space Marines move fast, and i think they'd be able to move to deeper sections of the station before they can be jettisoned. How long would it take to find out which areas they are in and jettison it?

They wouldn't have to sift through everyone. Just the people in the areas of the large power sources, and not even all of those. All they need to find is a few people who know how to flip the switch and make them shut down the major systems the area.

I can't find any stats anywhere that detail how many psykers are on board each battlebarge, but I estimate that they would have at least a few hundred at minimum between all three ships which should be enough to find the half a dozen or so crewmen needed for the job. All you really have to do is read one or two crewmen in the critical areas to find out who is important.

Yeah teleporting is inaccurate and dangerous, but it doesn't really matter when one terminator would be more then enough to create unstoppable havoc in any area he was teleported to.

Also remember that the Imperium has handled threats similar in nature to the death star such as the Necron world engine, which was more or less the same deal except that it was entirely alien in nature, was larger in size and instead of stormtroopers and imperial officers, it was populated entirely by invincible, regenerating robots that shot beams that stripped their targets on a molecular level.

#19 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 05 May 2011 - 11:04 PM

Space Marines move fast, and i think they'd be able to move to deeper sections of the station before they can be jettisoned. How long would it take to find out which areas they are in and jettison it?


The SM's have a map of the area why and how?

Immediately, because the Imperial Navymen, unlike the invading SMs, can simply call up any section and say "Hey, we have enemy invaders in Sector 7G, we can't repel them. Jettison the block."

They wouldn't have to sift through everyone. Just the people in the areas of the large power sources, and not even all of those. All they need to find is a few people who know how to flip the switch and make them shut down the major systems the area.

I can't find any stats anywhere that detail how many psykers are on board each battlebarge, but I estimate that they would have at least a few hundred at minimum between all three ships which should be enough to find the half a dozen or so crewmen needed for the job. All you really have to do is read one or two crewmen in the critical areas to find out who is important.


Right, you mean you'd have to have the psyker read the mind of a crew member to find out who his boss is... and then read his boss' mind to find out who is his boss, and so on and so forth.

BTW you still haven't presented evidence that this is a standard battle tactic or examples of their scans working through jamming fields or being so accurate.

BTW how far out can the Terminator squads teleport? Because the Death Star, during the Battle of Despayre fired on the Fortessa from a distance of 2,209 km.

Yeah teleporting is inaccurate and dangerous, but it doesn't really matter when one terminator would be more then enough to create unstoppable havoc in any area he was teleported to.


Until the area is jettisoned into space.

Also remember that the Imperium has handled threats similar in nature to the death star such as the Necron world engine, which was more or less the same deal except that it was entirely alien in nature, was larger in size and instead of stormtroopers and imperial officers, it was populated entirely by invincible, regenerating robots that shot beams that stripped their targets on a molecular level.


Without specifics I have no way of knowing if this was smilar or not. Oh wait, I just read about it. The World Engine was already known by the IoM, they had enough info to deduce that a regular attack would not work, and sacrificed a Battle Barge to destroy land the Space Marines, and then used the Imperial Navy to actually finish the job.

#20 Ruinus

Ruinus

    Plebiscite Moderator

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,154 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:SupaFreedomland AKA USA
  • Interests:Star Wars, Guilty Gear, Guns N' Roses, astronomy, school, English, reading, science fiction, drawing, video games and playing guitar.

Posted 05 May 2011 - 11:15 PM

Or, to put it in a shorter words, because these long typing sessions are getting annoying.

Prove:
The distance that Space Marines or Terminators can be deployed.
That psykers can read minds mid battle.
That psykers mind control people mid battle.
Scans from IoM ships are accurate enough to distinguish important areas.

BTW: what positions do psykers serve aboard Imperial ships, particularly Battle Barges? I can guess at Navigator and Astropath, but what else? I see that a High Alpha level psyker can read minds of a small town, but at what level do they start doing that?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users