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#81 the atom

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 04:50 PM

No, but without treatment, the disease is lethal, so yes, the two can be compared. Actually, they don't have to be shot in the head, only permanantly detained. And seeing as how the afflicted are mindless anyway, thats not gonna be a problem anyway.


There are plenty of lethal diseases. Rabies is really only remarkable because of the effects it has on animals. And why would they waste the space "detaining" a bunch of zombies? Nobody is going to come running to whatever the government has in store for them once it is learned that the disease is incurable.

#82 force_echo

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 05:00 PM

There are plenty of lethal diseases. Rabies is really only remarkable because of the effects it has on animals. And why would they waste the space "detaining" a bunch of zombies? Nobody is going to come running to whatever the government has in store for them once it is learned that the disease is incurable.

No, I'm using rabies because it's a lethal disease spread by biting. Just like Zombeism.

Umm, what part of "mindless" do you not get? If these people were capable of anything but wandering around and biting people, maybe the disease would have more credibility. But since it dosen't, these people don't really have a say in the matter.

#83 the atom

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 05:11 PM

No, I'm using rabies because it's a lethal disease spread by biting. Just like Zombeism.

Umm, what part of "mindless" do you not get? If these people were capable of anything but wandering around and biting people, maybe the disease would have more credibility. But since it dosen't, these people don't really have a say in the matter.

Yes, but it doesn't spread person to person that way because people generally don't bit each other. Mindless? I'm talking about the infected and the many irrational things they might do in the 24 or so hours they have before they turn, such as leave the country or go to a different city. Whatever it is they certainly aren't going to go running to disease control once they find out that there's no treatment besides a bullet through the skull.

#84 force_echo

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 06:08 PM

Yes, but it doesn't spread person to person that way because people generally don't bit each other. Mindless? I'm talking about the infected and the many irrational things they might do in the 24 or so hours they have before they turn, such as leave the country or go to a different city. Whatever it is they certainly aren't going to go running to disease control once they find out that there's no treatment besides a bullet through the skull.

It dosen't really matter whether they go running to disease control or not. After the incubation period, they're easy and ostentatious to find. Chances are the person wouldn't bite anyone during the incubation anyway. Chances are that on the first siting the entire place would go into lockdown anyway. The spread of the disease would effectively stop, or slow down to a tiny trickle.

#85 the atom

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Posted 17 April 2011 - 07:05 PM

It dosen't really matter whether they go running to disease control or not. After the incubation period, they're easy and ostentatious to find. Chances are the person wouldn't bite anyone during the incubation anyway. Chances are that on the first siting the entire place would go into lockdown anyway. The spread of the disease would effectively stop, or slow down to a tiny trickle.


What "place"? A neighbourhood? A town? A city? There's only so much you can "lockdown". And they're not always easy to find either. What if it wanders into a warehouse or gets stuck in a bush in park and then bites someone who comes looking for their ball? And what if that somewhere is a thousand miles away from where the outbreak started because that person fled when they were bitten? Once again we seem to be assuming that this outbreak starts in a stable first world country with effective security and law enforcement. I rather doubt Libya's capability to quell an outbreak of the undead at the moment. Palestine wouldn't fare so smoothly either. And if an outbreak happens to include more then 1000 zombies, the epidemic would have the potential to spread across the entire country, or even a continent (in a limited form anyway).

#86 Ruinus

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 12:42 AM

As much stuff as our government covers up, you should know that they would downplay anything that would happen. Normally anything they tell you, its about 5 times worse than they will admit. Add in the fact that its the living dead and they definetly would not say it to everyone. They would sound crazy. The first thing the government would do is try to capturee some and look for a cure. Some retard in the pentagon would also want to learn how to weaponize it, just like they try with other diseases. In the process many more would become infected.


Yeah. Ok, tell me about all the times epidemics, plagues, or disasters occured in the US and the US government told no one about it.

You act as if the government was an all trusting service. Did you know that now in Mexico, the drug cartel has begun to board buses and search cars for Americans. Anyone with an American ID that they find they kill on the spot. If a zombie epidemic was happenning to some other country it would be all over the news. If it was in the US, you wouldnt here about it until it was at your front door.


What the hell does the drug cartel have to do with the reliability of the US government?

#87 Ruinus

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 12:48 AM

I agree that the speed at which the disease would spread is often overrated. It would take years to proliferate, and take possibly decades to become a problem.

Thing with SARS is is that, SARS patients complied with pretty much every single medical procedure necessary. A zombie wouldn't exactly be cooperative, and hunting down every single zombie would take some time. Add that to the fact that infected people aren't going to exactly be lining up to disease control once it is established that the virus is incurable, and that the only treatment is a bullet through the brain. Some might commit suicide, but others would not be so noble.


Right, which is one of the points of my argument. No disease spreads as ridiculously fast as a zombie plague is requried to. It'll never spread beyond a small outbreak, so it'll never become a big problem.

Again, I'm not talking about how a zombie infected will comply with the hospitals or not, I was pointing out that several diseases have had epidemics that didn't destroy the world and were caught before they spread to any ridiculous degree. Zombie plague, on the other hand, is far more visible than a cough or fever once it reaches the "attack everyone in sight" stage.

Also, zombie plague can't be prevented because...?

#88 Ruinus

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 01:02 AM

Any pathogen that would take over it's host to such a degree would likely have some defenses to microscopic organisms and possibly other carrion feeders.

Falcon has a point. While the government would probably give citizens some idea at first, they wouldn't want to disclose all the facts immediately. Any outbreak in the states would have to be dealt with smoothly and quietly. Keeping the population 100% ignorant would be a bad idea, but alerting them to the full extent of the outbreak would be a bad idea, at least at certain stages

Even a rouge zombie inside a city would be tough to track. All it takes is for a couple of homeless guys, or some drunk people staggering home from a party to bitten, and it starts all over.


So a pathogen is immune to the carrier being killed by an animal now? To falling off a cliff? Getting swept up in a river?

No, he doesn't. If someone want to claim a world government (in his case, the US government) has suffered some sort of epidemic or disaster (as what we are assuming a zombie outbreak would be) and never told anyone or kept the population in the dark on some issues, he can show some past historical examples. I mean really, what do you guys think a government would not tell people, or why it would be in their best interested to tell the people?

Let's see: outbreak of zombie plague. Important, so tell people.
Outbreak spreads through contact with infected. Important, so tell people.
The military and health organizations are quarantining areas. Important, so tell people.

What, exactly, is important information during this outbreak that is not important enough to share with the local population that is at risk?

Also, no, it wouldn't. You seem to want a zombie to be able to sneakily stealth around a city until it can infect someone (and, presumably, for that someone to not be smart enough to say "Oh hey,t here was a zombie outbreak in this city before. Last night some wierd dude bit me... NOT RELATED! HA!" A zombie is mindless, their only drive seems to be to attack people. There's no way a zombie is goign to be hanging out in a city without attacting attention to itself.

There's also no way a city would go "Mmmh, ok, we THINK we got all the zombies during the last sweep. There's a chance some of them were missed. We can either pack up and go back home and risk another outbreak, or just pay our cops/soldiers overtime to do another sweep, and then another and THEN still tell the people to be on the lookout for anything odd."

#89 Ruinus

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 01:04 AM

I'd like to see a zombie outbreak occur in some shithole third world country (not that the poor living conditions and terrible political climates there are anything to laugh at), just to see the zombie infected by shot immediately by militia men armed with AKs or torn up in any of the civil wars that occur anywhere. Or for the zombies to be used as political tools by dictators in the areas "See! We need my giant oppressive army to keep you safe!"

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 10:17 AM

Yeah. Ok, tell me about all the times epidemics, plagues, or disasters occured in the US and the US government told no one about it.



What the hell does the drug cartel have to do with the reliability of the US government?

The first cases of West Nile were in the US 5 months before the news and government started admitting to it. Here is proof for plenty of other things the government tries to cover up and wont "comment" on.

http://www.conspirac...sseventura.com/

The drug cartel example is something that the government is trying to keep quite from the american people as much as possible.

#91 force_echo

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 11:03 AM

What "place"? A neighbourhood? A town? A city? There's only so much you can "lockdown". And they're not always easy to find either. What if it wanders into a warehouse or gets stuck in a bush in park and then bites someone who comes looking for their ball? And what if that somewhere is a thousand miles away from where the outbreak started because that person fled when they were bitten? Once again we seem to be assuming that this outbreak starts in a stable first world country with effective security and law enforcement. I rather doubt Libya's capability to quell an outbreak of the undead at the moment. Palestine wouldn't fare so smoothly either. And if an outbreak happens to include more then 1000 zombies, the epidemic would have the potential to spread across the entire country, or even a continent (in a limited form anyway).

Why do you assume that police or military action is required? Are you assuming that poor people are mentally retarded and do not know how to avoid being bitten by a walking mindless corpse that has a life span of like 2 weeks? How many instances where a zombie getting stuck in a bush would accidentally bite a kid looking for a ball? Not enough to be an epidemic. I don't think you're grasping the scale the disease would have to be to even classify as a threat. You would need at least a hundred thousand a month. The only diseases that have achieved this are covert and invisible, spread throughout ingenious means. An African doesn't have a choice to drink dirty water or get bit by a tiny, unindentifiable mosquito. But a giant zombie thats trying to bite him? That's easy.

#92 Ruinus

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 12:49 PM

The first cases of West Nile were in the US 5 months before the news and government started admitting to it. Here is proof for plenty of other things the government tries to cover up and wont "comment" on.

http://www.conspirac...sseventura.com/


As evidence you site Conspiracy Theory? That's pretty funny. West Nile in the US. From 1990 to 2001 there were only 149 recorded cases of West Nile, with only 19 deaths.

This paper says:
During the crissis surrounding the first outbreak of WNV, which lasted until October 1999 and claimed seven lives, public officials from New York City, surroudning localities, New Yok State and the CDC were called upon to rapidly and continually communicate with the public about the disease and steps to combat the mosquito-borne virus.

Now, if you want to keep claiming the government didn't disclose any information about WNV, show some evidence. Outbreak started in 1999, show me news archives that fail to contain stuff about WNV. New York Times or news and media corportations around that area.

EDIT: Oh, by the way, I went around and searched for a lack of new coverage about WNV in New York in 1999.

“WEST NILE MYSTERY,” The New Yorker, October 11, 1999.

Outbreak of West Nile-Like Viral Encephalitis -- New York, 1999:
Emergency telephone hotlines were established in New York City on September 3 and in Westchester County on September 21 to address public inquiries about the encephalitis outbreak and pesticide application. As of September 28, approximately 130,000 calls have been received by the New York City hotline and 12,000 by the WCDH hotline. Approximately 300,000 cans of DEET-based mosquito repellant were distributed citywide through local firehouses, and 750,000 public health leaflets were distributed with information about personal protection against mosquito bites. Recurring public messages were announced on radio, television, on the New York City and WCDH World-Wide Web sites, and in newspapers, urging personal protection against mosquito bites, including limiting outdoor activity during peak hours of mosquito activity, wearing long-sleeved shirts and long pants, using DEET-based insect repellents, and eliminating any potential mosquito breeding niches. Spraying schedules also were publicized with recommendations for persons to remain indoors while spraying occurred to reduce pesticide exposure.

Double Edit:BTW According to the last news paper, the first cases showed up in August 23, and only 1 week later the NYCDOH start active surveillance in the area of where the first patients came from. 4 days later on September 3 is when the phone lines went up. So the total time for the government to figure out something was up and start working on it and telling people about it was 11 days, that only because the NCDOH actually had to go and find mosquito carriers.

This all goes back to the first paper I linked, which says:
From a normative persepective, risk communications theorist emphasize the improtance of accepting and invovling the public in an open fashion in risk assessment activities, including sharing decision-making power where possible.

The drug cartel example is something that the government is trying to keep quite from the american people as much as possible.


Could have fooled me, what with this simple Google Search showing Fox News reporting on the Mexican Drug War several times. The government isn't trying to keep people quiet about it, especially since Obama has spoken about the Mexican Drug War and met with Felipe Calderon to discuss it too.

BTW, this is a pretty bad example. Since the Drug War and killings don't affect US citizens (except tourists and the like). Mexico, where the events are taking place, on the other hand, knows full well about it's Drug War and covers it regularly. Show me an event that occured in the US that the US didn't tell people about.

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 01:06 PM

I give up on you. You seem to believe our government will tell you everything and be up front and honest. So you can keep happily believing everything fed to you through media since the media is never wrong. There are plenty of things the government dont want people to know about. Area 51 was only a rumor until technology became advanced enough to prove it existed. Same with other sites around the world. Nothing underhanded exists until you find it. While Conspiracy theory may be just a TV show, it points out a lot of facts and inconsistencies with government stories and policies.

#94 Ruinus

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 01:13 PM

Yeah, I'll do that. Your informative arguments almost swayed me, with all the truths you spoke and examples you cited.

Baaaah, says I.

#95 Opalord

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 03:54 PM

I give up on you. You seem to believe our government will tell you everything and be up front and honest. So you can keep happily believing everything fed to you through media since the media is never wrong. There are plenty of things the government dont want people to know about. Area 51 was only a rumor until technology became advanced enough to prove it existed. Same with other sites around the world. Nothing underhanded exists until you find it. While Conspiracy theory may be just a TV show, it points out a lot of facts and inconsistencies with government stories and policies.

<_<

#96 the atom

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:41 PM

Right, which is one of the points of my argument. No disease spreads as ridiculously fast as a zombie plague is requried to. It'll never spread beyond a small outbreak, so it'll never become a big problem.

Again, I'm not talking about how a zombie infected will comply with the hospitals or not, I was pointing out that several diseases have had epidemics that didn't destroy the world and were caught before they spread to any ridiculous degree. Zombie plague, on the other hand, is far more visible than a cough or fever once it reaches the "attack everyone in sight" stage.

Also, zombie plague can't be prevented because...?


The problem with a zombie plague is that it would have the potential to reoccur over and over and over, in almost any type of climate. Sure a small outbreak might not get far, but there's a reasonably high chance it will happen again. And again. And agin. Eventually you've got a dozen mini outbreaks at any one time. Soon enough they become harder to contain and soon those mini outbreaks are less mini.

True it is somewhat visible. However all that is really required of a zombie is to break the skin with its nails or teeth, which isn't really asking a whole lot. One person is enough to make the outbreak continue.

#97 the atom

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 05:55 PM

Why do you assume that police or military action is required? Are you assuming that poor people are mentally retarded and do not know how to avoid being bitten by a walking mindless corpse that has a life span of like 2 weeks? How many instances where a zombie getting stuck in a bush would accidentally bite a kid looking for a ball? Not enough to be an epidemic. I don't think you're grasping the scale the disease would have to be to even classify as a threat. You would need at least a hundred thousand a month. The only diseases that have achieved this are covert and invisible, spread throughout ingenious means. An African doesn't have a choice to drink dirty water or get bit by a tiny, unindentifiable mosquito. But a giant zombie thats trying to bite him? That's easy.


I never said poor people were retarded. However in many places, the organized forces required to properly contain and exterminate an outbreak would be lacking. Poor countries would make an excellent target because of lack of organization in officials, as well as a high rate of homelessness. Any zombie would have a field day with the masses of people sleeping outdoors or the ones too starved to escape. A zombie plague would spread like wildfire.

#98 the atom

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Posted 18 April 2011 - 06:02 PM

I'd like to see a zombie outbreak occur in some shithole third world country (not that the poor living conditions and terrible political climates there are anything to laugh at), just to see the zombie infected by shot immediately by militia men armed with AKs or torn up in any of the civil wars that occur anywhere. Or for the zombies to be used as political tools by dictators in the areas "See! We need my giant oppressive army to keep you safe!"


How the hell would they contain the spread of such a disease? Infections and attacks might go completely unreported, and many would certainly attempt to handle the situation on their own. The high rate of poverty would also make the plague spread MUCH faster due to the high rate of homelessness (i.e. Defenceless people that nobody can or will help), and disease ("help me i'm sick" "get in line"). Poorly trained mobs of people going at the undead with automatic weapons and machetes would also be a recipe for catastrophic disaster.

#99 force_echo

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 01:25 PM

I never said poor people were retarded. However in many places, the organized forces required to properly contain and exterminate an outbreak would be lacking. Poor countries would make an excellent target because of lack of organization in officials, as well as a high rate of homelessness. Any zombie would have a field day with the masses of people sleeping outdoors or the ones too starved to escape. A zombie plague would spread like wildfire.

What?You don't need an organized force to properly contain and exterminate the outbreak, the damn disease spreads so slowly all you would need to do is kill one zombie. Even poor kids in Africa have AK-47s and knives. Here's what happens:

One person gets plague. This guy manages to bite one guy. The tribe puts previous guy down. The second guy turns into a zombie. The tribe puts the second guy down. If the second guy manages to bite a third guy, the tribe immediately puts those people down, because they know what's gonna happen based on previous experience. Zombie Invasion terminated.

Zombeism isn't like Cholera or Dysentry. You have to drink water, you don't have to get bitten by zombies.

#100 the atom

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Posted 19 April 2011 - 04:09 PM

What?You don't need an organized force to properly contain and exterminate the outbreak, the damn disease spreads so slowly all you would need to do is kill one zombie. Even poor kids in Africa have AK-47s and knives. Here's what happens:

One person gets plague. This guy manages to bite one guy. The tribe puts previous guy down. The second guy turns into a zombie. The tribe puts the second guy down. If the second guy manages to bite a third guy, the tribe immediately puts those people down, because they know what's gonna happen based on previous experience. Zombie Invasion terminated.

Zombeism isn't like Cholera or Dysentry. You have to drink water, you don't have to get bitten by zombies.

Yes, but what if the first zombie bit 6 people before being taken down? People are usually easy to ambush when they live in shacks where you can simply push the walls down to get in.
Even a horde of two dozen can be difficult to put down when you don't know how to do it properly. As mentioned spraying alot of bullets and trying to stab the undead wont get you very far. Even the disease gets past even 10 it would be hard to stop.




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