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#21 M Bison

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 05:01 PM

Achilles isn't a mythology. Gods like Athena, Zeus and monsters like the Hydra are mythology. Achilles is a character in Homer's Illiad, one of the oldest and most important literary works in the history of mankind, one that has translated for millennium and holds an extremely important place in human history. He could also quite possibly have been a real individual, an actual living and breathing Greek warrior.

And I just watched him be used as a whipping pedestal for a character who's only purpose was to kill Superman back in the nineties when they could have used anyone as a jobber. Seriously **** DC.


And he's been used as a character by many other works of fiction, including Marvel.

Alan Moore used numerous characters from important works of literature for The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. He killed some of them off. Does that make it a terrible piece of work?


Now, I’ve not read this comic, have no interest in doing so and for all I know it may be terrible. But the reasons given are rather weak. Especially deriding an entire company for one comic.

#22 KidStranglehold

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Posted 14 March 2011 - 06:58 PM

I agree with Jaeger and Ivan.

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Posted 15 March 2011 - 09:18 PM

Achilles isn't a mythology. Gods like Athena, Zeus and monsters like the Hydra are mythology. Achilles is a character in Homer's Illiad, one of the oldest and most important literary works in the history of mankind, one that has translated for millennium and holds an extremely important place in human history. He could also quite possibly have been a real individual, an actual living and breathing Greek warrior.

And I just watched him be used as a whipping pedestal for a character who's only purpose was to kill Superman back in the nineties when they could have used anyone as a jobber. Seriously **** DC.


You're technically correct in stating that Achilles isn't "A mythology." He's a CHARACTER in Greek Mythology. He was dipped in the river Styx as a baby, to make him invulnerable. Got shot in the heel. Played by Brad Pitt in a really ponderous action movie. Yes, he is part of Classical Greek mythology. No, feigning surprise toward a decision made in a comic book you never read doesn't make sense. (Nor is it even particularly believable in your case, since you can't spell Iliad correctly.)

Just for everyone's edification, pretending to be "outraged" by a questionable decision in mainstream comics has never made any sense. Obsessing over comics is fine, (this is coming from a guy who made a list of historical costume inconsistencies in Asterix comics for a French History report,) but getting upset because a tertiary Wonder Woman character got beat up in a comic book is DUUUUUUMB. It's a comic book, and since Achilles Warkiller has both Wolverine levels of regeneration and Gladiator's old "confidence = strength level" shtick there's no reason to suspect he won't be back on his feet in two weeks to help the Outsiders battle... some other Outsiders. (Not that you were reading Outsiders to begin with, but whatever.)

I want to make a second point here: There is no reason to assume anything about this version of Doomsday. For all we know he may be limited to having the powers of Steel, Eradicator, Superboy, and Cyborg Superman. There is no reason to assume he's been augmented when he could've just as easily been rewritten.

#24 xman4life

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 10:11 AM

Wait, is that Achilles? As in Achilles from Homer's Illiad, the same epic that was read to me as a child?

I *vulgarity*ing hate DC.

Now I do agree I can't stand dc either and the reason for it is because each year some OTHER person becomes god like! Need examples sure

Supermans base strength from abck in the day went from maybe 400 tons to 100000000. Like really?

Wonder woman went from maybe 100 tons to 10000000 tons!

And who else can damn near lift a whole continent? Martain manhunter, supergirl, power girl, captain marvel

Like they need to wipe all slates clean and start from scratch and depower everyone before it gets to the fact every hero is like a god which its almost there
I mean what else can superman do? They over powered him sooooooo much the only time he can have a good story is if he "forgets to use all of his powers" or kyrptonite ia around. Other than that he should not have trouble melting metallo for miles away or flying ftl so that the kryptonite won't effect him as much.

And speaking of ftl who else has it green lantern (all of them) flash(almost all of them) all of the supers(girl, power girl, boy and man) and I think martain manhunter too!

Like they way they over powered everyone normal villians shouldn't stand a chance! But they do. But for DC to have soooo many heavy hitters they should have crime at all time lows with 4 super men 3 captain marvels, 3 wonder women 3 flashes, 3 green lanterns, 6 batmen running around. Like each good hero has like 3 wanna bes/sidekick/replacements to the point that it lacks originality. Even martain manhunter has the girl, big barda has little barda, and catwoman now has the cat girl now!

I used to like DC but now a lot of things are becoming reoccuring or becoming too much. They made darkseid so powerful he can only use two powers at a time! Lmao. You can't name a comic where you seen all of his powers being used!

The monarch! Need I say more

Superman prime One Million need I say more.

When marvel had the sentry they KNEW they went to far but at least gave him a good weakness in having a weak mind and easily manipulated or vulnerable to mind attacks. But still they had to get rid of him because he was just too much to make fun.

Case in point superman name the last good story that he used all of his powers to the max. And if you name a time then why is lex luthor even a problem? And lex luthor isn't even the smartest man or earth. He's smart but not like reed richards smart so why does a being like superman shown to beat up darkseid having issues with the 5th smartest man in the world?

#25 xman4life

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 10:23 AM

Now with doomsday too! Hey we already have world breaker hulk let's make him have super speed, able to absorb power, grow, turn into adamantium, give him thors hammer, quasars bracelets, captain americans sheild, wolverines claws, beyonders powers, and make him galactus jr! Lmfao

Like to the people at DC sit around like " ok doomsday killed superman already how can we can someone unstoppable more unstoppable" and they are like make hims base strength 10000000000000000000000000000 tons! And then some one else says AND make him fly. And someone else comes and says now let's give HIM heat vision,
(And then they all chime on)
And super speed

And a green lantern ring

And wonder womans bracelets

And super hearing

And able to pahse

And able to grow

And able to manipulate energy

(And at the end of the day someone looks at the board with all of doomsdays new powers and says "you think we went over board" and another person says hell no were about to make superman one BILLION times powerful tomorrow anyway so its ok" lmfao

#26 M Bison

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 10:41 AM

People who base their opinions on a comic based on how weak or powerful a character is are not comic book fans. There are plenty of fantastic stories, from both Marvel and DC, featuring characters of various power levels, including some of the characters you listed above. You likely don’t care of course. I doubt you’ve ever bothered to read a comic outside of your very narrow interest.

I’ll never get the hatred some Marvel and DC fans have for the other company. They aren’t that different at all.

#27 xman4life

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 10:59 AM

Oh no don't get me wrong I read everything from batman to new avengers. In my pull list you will see

New avengers
X-23
Daken
Osborn
Thunderrbolts
X-men
X-men legancy
Uncanny X-men
Uncanny X-force
Batman
Justice League
X-factor
And Thor. I read a bunch of different stuff and oje thing I can tell you or any comic book follower of both will tell you is the power levels are VERY different and the willingness to take a life is different.

For example
Batman
Superman
Flash
Martain manhunter
Any from the batman family
Any captain marvel affiliate doesn't and won't take a life

Captain america(time to time if need be)
Punisher
Wolverine
Hawkeye
Moonknight
X-force(more murders than 5 years of all of batmans foes)
X-factor
And even thor(from time to time if need be)

Now you have all of these popular titles of heroes that DO take lives regularly. And marvel doesn't have that many high powered people as dc does. That's why sentry was a big deal. Marbel has mostly street level and medium powered people. Marvel does has its share of cosmic but that's why they are cosmiv becuase they don't belong on earth. Those are two big differences

#28 M Bison

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 11:08 AM

You're pointing at differences in power level. A terrible argument. How about story telling? Writing quality? Art?

Looking at your pull list, I've not read a great deal of X-Men so I can't really help you there, but I see Batman on there. Have you read The Dark Knight Returns? Arkham Asylum? The Killing Joke? Those are just three examples of his absolute best. And Justice League, have you read the Grant Morrison run? As for characters you don't like, have you ever read All Star Superman? For the Man Who Has Everything? Kingdom Come? Brilliant stories featuring Superman, with him being even more powerful than normal in both Kingdom Come and All Star, and yet they are fantastic comics with a huge amount of critical acclaim. You can’t really say “this character sucks” without reading their best.


And if you’re so concerned about power levels, then why are you reading Justice League? Granted, I don’t know the current incarnation of the team – I read trades, not single issues, so I’m never completely up to date.

EDIT: There are also Marvel characters that won't kill and DC characters that will.

#29 xman4life

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 11:34 AM

You're pointing at differences in power level. A terrible argument. How about story telling? Writing quality? Art?

Looking at your pull list, I've not read a great deal of X-Men so I can't really help you there, but I see Batman on there. Have you read The Dark Knight Returns? Arkham Asylum? The Killing Joke? Those are just three examples of his absolute best. And Justice League, have you read the Grant Morrison run? As for characters you don't like, have you ever read All Star Superman? For the Man Who Has Everything? Kingdom Come? Brilliant stories featuring Superman, with him being even more powerful than normal in both Kingdom Come and All Star, and yet they are fantastic comics with a huge amount of critical acclaim. You can’t really say “this character sucks” without reading their best.


And if you’re so concerned about power levels, then why are you reading Justice League? Granted, I don’t know the current incarnation of the team – I read trades, not single issues, so I’m never completely up to date.

EDIT: There are also Marvel characters that won't kill and DC characters that will.

I read hush , arkham aslylum and I read batman RIP and battle of the cowl.. I'm telling you I'm talking from experience. I also read kigdom come as well. I LOVED that one. And the storied are more detailed and gritty when it comes to batman and his network. I like justice leauge because its more about how they work as a team. Oh yeah and I read all start superman. And I know there are dc people who do kill even wonder woman can take a life here and there. But what I'm saying is in the MOST popular titles of dc is less inclinde to kill where as the most popular heroes in marvel kill.

Superman and batman vow never to take a life no matter how bad they have it coming.

What about captain america and wolverine. If wolverine doesn't kill people call him a pussy! Lol marvel is more laxed about that. I'm not talking villians just heroes. Grant morrison is very good at what he doesm but while your giving me ones to read you should read. X-men second coming. Read that and tell me how do you like that. And people think the 90s x-men was the best roster! Lol ha cyclops is the general of all mutants now so many people at his disposal that it wouldn't even be a good match between them

#30 Scar

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 12:54 PM

You're technically correct in stating that Achilles isn't "A mythology." He's a CHARACTER in Greek Mythology. He was dipped in the river Styx as a baby, to make him invulnerable. Got shot in the heel. Played by Brad Pitt in a really ponderous action movie. Yes, he is part of Classical Greek mythology. No, feigning surprise toward a decision made in a comic book you never read doesn't make sense. (Nor is it even particularly believable in your case, since you can't spell Iliad correctly.)

Just for everyone's edification, pretending to be "outraged" by a questionable decision in mainstream comics has never made any sense. Obsessing over comics is fine, (this is coming from a guy who made a list of historical costume inconsistencies in Asterix comics for a French History report,) but getting upset because a tertiary Wonder Woman character got beat up in a comic book is DUUUUUUMB. It's a comic book, and since Achilles Warkiller has both Wolverine levels of regeneration and Gladiator's old "confidence = strength level" shtick there's no reason to suspect he won't be back on his feet in two weeks to help the Outsiders battle... some other Outsiders. (Not that you were reading Outsiders to begin with, but whatever.)

I want to make a second point here: There is no reason to assume anything about this version of Doomsday. For all we know he may be limited to having the powers of Steel, Eradicator, Superboy, and Cyborg Superman. There is no reason to assume he's been augmented when he could've just as easily been rewritten.


I wasn't outraged, it just pissed me off to see a character that holds a special importance to me being jobbed to a character with a total lack of depth, characterization and any defining traits outside of being a mindless monster and offing Superman one time. But yeah, I did over react a bit. It's just DC being DC.

Kind of like you with the Warbound and Parademons match a while back on CBuB.


People who base their opinions on a comic based on how weak or powerful a character is are not comic book fans. There are plenty of fantastic stories, from both Marvel and DC, featuring characters of various power levels, including some of the characters you listed above. You likely don’t care of course. I doubt you’ve ever bothered to read a comic outside of your very narrow interest.

I’ll never get the hatred some Marvel and DC fans have for the other company. They aren’t that different at all.


Every bit about that statement = the god damned truth.

#31 M Bison

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Posted 16 March 2011 - 07:06 PM

I also read kigdom come as well. I LOVED that one. Oh yeah and I read all start superman.

You loved Kingdom Come and read All Star Superman, and yet earlier you said you couldn't make a good story with Superman. Clearly you see that's not correct?

As for the rest of your post, I couldn't care less about "grittiness" or weather people kill and don't see how that makes a story better or worse in any way.

#32 Kinetic War

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 12:39 AM

Really, xmen4life? Really? You just have to bring that "all superheroes should be like the Punisher" attitude to every thread you post in?

[RANT] Let's make one thing clear, since it seems it's not getting through: Comic books depict fantasy. They (should) focus on story-telling, drama, character development, that kind of thing. Sometimes, they may be used as a means of conveying political or ideological messages, but only the soap box types actually make comic books about their beliefs (Steve Ditko, anyone?). The question "Should superheroes kill?" is way older than you seem to think. With idealistic characters, there are multiple ways of answering that question without jeopardizing what makes the character who he/she is, and their policy may be presented in favourable or unfavourable light depending on the intention of the writer. A good writer can look beyond whatever political and ideological disagreements they might have with the character to tell an entertaining story. They might use a combination of messages, ranging from heartlessly practical to loftily ideological solutions. When there are so many brutal vigilantes one could easily use as their poster boy, why should the combination of messages for someone like Batman be "what describes a hero, nudge nudge" and "how would a misantrophic redneck solve this dilemma, wink wink"?

Since you're apparently very well-versed in comics, having read at least ten different titles from two companies, you're surely aware that countless heroes have seen or presented at least one rebuttal each for the "kill everyone" argument, right? The Joker episode in HUSH is cleverly written, with Batman nearly murdering the Joker for a crime he, for once, is not guilty of. Daredevil has had Frank Miller, Ann Nocenti and many others write a defense his socially responsible view, and has compared opinions with the Punisher quite often. Spider-Man knows that committing one murder, however justified it seems, would make it that much easier to take the next life, and then the next. All this without mentioning Captain America. You get the idea.

You could just as easily write a response as to why said characters should kill, but what's the point of that, since they're clearly been established as people who don't use lethal force? Why not be content with all the antiheroes we have? Not all people think alike, why should fictional protagonists? [/RANT]

#33 xman4life

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 09:59 AM

Um did anyone actually read my posts? I didn't say heroes should kill! I said that's the difference between marvel and dc when someone said there isn't much of a difference. So please everyone calm down. Lol I LITTERALLY said I didn't like DC because of why???? They over power their people to the point it is just ridiculous and when you over power people that much you have to make them "forget" to use their power or have something around that makes it so they can't use it.

Now I explain why I read justice leauge and batman. Batman I have no qualms with except for him doing things that he shouldn't be doing but hey that happens to the best of heroes.
DC also have too many sidekicks/jrs/boy/girls(supergirl, powergirl,superboy,aqua lad, damion robin,robin,nightwing,red robin,batgirl,batwoman, kid flash, wondergirl, donna troy) after a while it become a bit much.
And I said I hate the fact DC overpowers there people. I didn't say DC stories suck or they don't have good characters. So please READ my posts.

My qualm is about making people that powerful hurts stories sometimes because allstar superman was an alternate timeline/dimensions so was kingdom come. I'm talking current ongoing series not stories, because stories like arkham asylum and allstar superman sometimes and most times don't reflect what's going on and doesn't tie in with any current series PLUS they are like custum tailored for how smart batman is and how powerful superman is. I like justice leauge but they don't or they have to omit peoples power a lot. Because with superman, wonder woman, martian manhunter,(three people who lift well over 1000000 tons) flash, green lantern, superman, vixen(who can match flashes speed) 4 people who are near the speed of light there fights should be rather quickly fought if going by comic cannon.

#34 xman4life

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 10:17 AM

You loved Kingdom Come and read All Star Superman, and yet earlier you said you couldn't make a good story with Superman. Clearly you see that's not correct?

As for the rest of your post, I couldn't care less about "grittiness" or weather people kill and don't see how that makes a story better or worse in any way.

Kingdom come and allstar superman are one shots, different timelines. You read it one time and not much comes from it as far as sequel is concerned. And kingdom come used all of his powers even though I didn't see him use his breath once though or x ray vision to see captain marvel was being mind controled. And sidenote how the hell did captain marvel die in that explosion of captain marvel is basically supermans equal? I didn't like that. But oh well. And allstar superman was dying. All of these things tie in together because when people debate who superman can beat on cbub they go by feats right? They say he's faster than light base strength is well over 10000000000 tons heat vison hotter than the sun and breath that can freeze on the spot. THEN he had an issue with doomsday, mongol, solomon grundy and others which makes me like um why didn't he use freeze breath or heat vision. And then its a debate between weakness to magic and being vulnerable to magic.

That is all I'm saying. I prefer marvel over DC. Not to say DC doesn't have its ups and high points(because I do read some DC titles) its just as a WHOLE marvel is better to me.

#35 M Bison

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 10:23 AM

That complaint might be valied if you didn't have Thor on your pull list. Are you aware of half of the insane things Thor has done with that hammer of his over the years? The same complaint can be lodged at him as Superman. So what's your point?

The only valid reason you should have for disliking a comic is bad writing or terrible art. Powers are not a reason.

It's funny that you point out the fact those stories are out of continuity as if it matters in the slightest, because it doesn't.

And I couldn't care less about CBUB and feats. This is talking about what makes a good comic, not mindless crap like that that means nothing to good story telling.

#36 xman4life

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 11:26 AM

That complaint might be valied if you didn't have Thor on your pull list. Are you aware of half of the insane things Thor has done with that hammer of his over the years? The same complaint can be lodged at him as Superman. So what's your point?

The only valid reason you should have for disliking a comic is bad writing or terrible art. Powers are not a reason.

It's funny that you point out the fact those stories are out of continuity as if it matters in the slightest, because it doesn't.

And I couldn't care less about CBUB and feats. This is talking about what makes a good comic, not mindless crap like that that means nothing to good story telling.

And I do hear where your coming from but Thor has been revamped multiple times. Examples. When he was rune thor king. He's not anymore so those powers are not there.
Odin force thor he doesn't have that anymore so again those feats are waived. Regular thor hasn't done anything recently that hasn't always been said . No new powers or anything. Some time travel, teleport, absorb energy, make storms, only he can lift it. That's pretty much all he has now I have seen anything new pop up.

Um I listed sotries that were great to me so you can get an idea of what I like. Kingdom come was done brilliantly! I praise DC for that. Battle for the cowl as well. I liked hush too. I'm a marvel fan but when stuff is good its good. I'm no fan boy and dislike all things DC. I just have issue with things like if superman has this power in one comic and when it comes to a time where that SAME power is needed then"forgets/dont use/doesnt acknowledge" it then I'm like WTF. That's not dumb at all. I would be the same pissed if spidey forgot his spider sense logan forgot his claws, and if emma forst forgets she's a telepath!

#37 kainboa

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 11:54 AM

The problem with Superman, and most of the Extremely High powered characters, are that they have so many powers that the writers either forget that they have them, or don't want to use them because it would make the story boring.

Marvel has the exact same problem with Their high tier characters.

#38 force_echo

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Posted 17 March 2011 - 05:59 PM

The problem with Superman, and most of the Extremely High powered characters, are that they have so many powers that the writers either forget that they have them, or don't want to use them because it would make the story boring.

Marvel has the exact same problem with Their high tier characters.

Silver Surfer- One of my favorite comics back when I was a kid. Still read the old ones now, even though he dosen't have his own title now. He was a very interesting character, had some interesting villains, and while the plot was sometimes lacking, Surfer's inner monologue and his reaction to the sins of mankind was well written.

#39 Kinetic War

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 12:13 AM

@xmen4life:

the willingness to take a life is different


there are dc people who do kill even wonder woman can take a life here and there. But what I'm saying is in the MOST popular titles of dc is less inclinde to kill where as the most popular heroes in marvel kill.


Superman and batman vow never to take a life no matter how bad they have it coming.


If wolverine doesn't kill people call him a pussy!


Apparently, I misread all these. Clearly, the idea of you bringing up your absolutely invalid argument about willingness/unwillingness to kill in this thread was just my delusional imagination. My bad.

So please everyone calm down.


It strikes me as very amusing when someone without basic grammar skills writes several rants detailing their obsession with a certain aspect in comics, and when someone gives them a comprehensibly written response, the aforementioned obsesser tells them to calm down.

Finally, to the thread itself: Umm... Whatever. I'm done with Doomsday anyway.

#40 xman4life

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Posted 18 March 2011 - 10:46 AM

Like kenetic do you not undertsand.

1 I was told there isn't that much of a difference between marvel and DC and I explain some differences. I didn't say I want characters to kill or if it made them more of a hero. I just said that's a difference is the willingness to take a life is more rampant in marvel! Point blank. Like where are you guys getting that from. If anyone would READ the WHOLE discussion rather than just what I post then you can understand! Its like people get on here just to make fun of people rather than discuss comics and claim other people don't read. When hardly anyone in this discussion read and was like o ok xman4life RESPONDED to what was said when a person posted there isn't much difference between marvel and dc and he was just pointing out differences!




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