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#41 force_echo

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 06:49 PM

If Star Wars EU wasn't canon, then why do the novels/ comic books/ graphic novels/ video games conform to the movies in the first place? Why set a limit on your writing thats not even needed? George Lucas simply stated that he has nothing to do with the EU, and the EU writers have nothing to do with the movies, in terms of that, they are like two different universes, but they are still in the same canon. This is really a sickening canon argument made by people debating against Star Wars. I really don't like debating this because its stupid, and it seems incontrovertible in the first place, but this just pisses me off. There are better ways to debate than finding George Lucas quotes and molding them to fit your argument, in this respect, I agree with Ivan about how cannon arguments are stupid.

#42 kainboa

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:14 PM

The point of calling something "canon" is so you can argue about pointless minutiae. As far as I'm concerned, anybody who does that is not a fan; they're an ass. Phrases like "PIS" only serve to perpetuate a culture of hipster snark, and none of you are very good at it. If you didn't like JMS's turn on Superman, don't read those issues. The only reason this thread exists is because you think feats are more important than the comics themselves. You're wrong. "Feats" have no value.


While this is your opinion and you are allowed to have it, some people on this site have a different opinion, and as this is a public forum, that opinion should have as much weight as yours do.
While you may be a moderator/admin, you are Not the all knowing god of everything that is comics and what you say or think about them are not the law
Simply because you read and appreciate comics in one way, does not mean that everybody Have to do it the same way.
You saying that feats are not important is not as factual as you make it seem like, feats are not important to you, they Are however important to others.
You may not like the way the site has developed, however this is how it is now, as you said yourself, if you don't like it, don't read it/post there.

#43 Guest_Ivan_*

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:23 PM

A list of cold, hard facts. These are Not my opinions, I'm just repeating what is written in the electricferret bible (it's on a special part of the boards that you newbs can't see.)

People who quote feats to "win" a discussion are not real fans. Period. Fans talk about story moments, not about statistics.

The site DEVELOPED over the last twelve years. Only in the last 18 months has being an idiot been the most popular trend.

If RedBlueBlur hates an idea, it needs to be implemented yesterday. That guy is pretty much a litmus test for suck.

#44 kainboa

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:37 PM

A list of cold, hard facts. These are Not my opinions, I'm just repeating what is written in the electricferret bible (it's on a special part of the boards that you newbs can't see.)

People who quote feats to "win" a discussion are not real fans. Period. Fans talk about story moments, not about statistics.

The site DEVELOPED over the last twelve years. Only in the last 18 months has being an idiot been the most popular trend.

If RedBlueBlur hates an idea, it needs to be implemented yesterday. That guy is pretty much a litmus test for suck.


It is Not a list of cold, hard facts, however much you want it to, it is a list of subjective statements.

As I stated earlier, being a fan is different for everybody. Trying to say that being a fan is behaving one way, is like saying that you are the only one who knows the truth about something. The truth is subjective to everybody, while you might prefer to read comics for their stories, others would read comics to see the pretty pictures, doing so does not make them Less of a fan, just a different one.

Frankly the fact that you seem to have this need to press your view of how a comic fan should behave down on everybody, makes it seem like you need to compensate for something.

#45 force_echo

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:49 PM

My biggest wish for CBUB is that instead of a message board, every user would get One Single Comment on each fight, one chance to state your case, and none of those comments were visible to other users until after the match was over.

So you're going to take the capacity to debate out of a debating site. I'd like to see how that turns out.

#46 Guest_Ivan_*

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:50 PM

Thanks Dr. Freud.

I am compensating for something. Your lack of knowledge. Your strawman position as defender of the people doesn't really hold water, because I have credibility in this instance, and you do not. We aren't equals. There is a legitimate, acceptable way to discuss these fights. Look no further than the old WWWF grudge match. Intelligent, well written responses deserve to get posted. Clever, funny responses deserve to get posted. Inventive, unusual responses deserve to get posted. Crap does not deserve to get posted. The CBUB is something of a crap factory. Actually, that's not fair, and is somewhat inaccurate. Fight setup quality has gone UP in the last six months. Fight commentary quality has not really changed. What has dramatically increased is the number of over/under rated threads, "respect" threads, feat lists, out-of-context scans, and copy/pasta from wikipedia. Most posters have NO CLUE what they're talking about, and the use of stats and figures to support baseless knowledge is ABHORRENT. Pages upon pages of arguments without a shred of dignity or credibility, all of which debase the original media by removing the story element and addressing only technical errata.

#47 Guest_Ivan_*

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:56 PM

force_echo this was never originally intended to be a "Debate" site. Look at the old CBUB archives from 1996-2006. Here, check out Bruce Wayne vs Tony Stark. See how everyone gets one comment, and nobody wastes it? Some people get technical, sure, but they do it in a geeky fanboy way, not in a "look what I copied off marvel.com" way. It's what I've been saying, many of you have the completely wrong impression of how the site is supposed to work.

#48 treacherous

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:09 PM

It would be extremely interesting if Serge took the CBUB back to the old format. I never could get a comment in.

#49 Tsemasi

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:11 PM

Well being a fan isn't about being right or wrong. A fan is simply someone who enjoys something for what it is.
What occurs on CBUB is closer to the gamer term of munchkin-ism. @_o
Not that I think it's horrible, this place is great for many reasons and we're all a return mass of deranged, odd, most often stubborn, gluttons.

#50 Guest_Ivan_*

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:12 PM

Serge, being smarter than all of us, has been talking about bringing the old system back to run concurrently with the user-created matches.

Also, for all my harshness about CBUB in the past year, I've actually been pleasantly surprised a number of times recently. The writers have really stepped up their game, made an effort and improved their own abilities.

The rest of the CBUB boards have yet to catch up, however.

Yes. Tsemasi speaks the truth. CBUB is infested with rules-lawyers, who have the superpower to ruin just about any game there is.

#51 TheJ0ke

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:16 PM

It would be extremely interesting if Serge took the CBUB back to the old format. I never could get a comment in.

That actually would be pretty cool. I remember lurking on the old CBUB from time to time about 5 years ago and always marveled at how entertaining it was to read everything. The match commentators were always good for a couple of laughs and the user comments were all extremely logical and made valid points, were incredibly witty/clever, or some combination of the two. However, one issue I have with being restricted to one post per match is that it's much more difficult to clear up points of confusion. Maybe it would be better if it was just for the official matches when/if they start back up again?

#52 Guest_Ivan_*

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:19 PM

Yes. That is what is happening. Serge has no intention of taking away any of the site's current functionality. I'm just being an old curmudgeon who remembers "back in the day" before all you whippersnappers tracked dirt all over my nice clean linoleum.

#53 silversurfer092

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:23 PM

So you're going to take the capacity to debate out of a debating site. I'd like to see how that turns out.



Correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not), but the CBUB did just fine way back during the time of the Grudge Match.


However, I think what may be in question is the definition of fan. There are some people who like the thing, than there are the people who worship the thing. Like in running. You get your occasional joggers who are all like "oh yeah running is awsom i liek 2 get my 3 miles in for the day". Then you get the runners who eat 3 miles for breakfast.

My main points are: force_echo is a noob, I don't like joggers thinking that what they do is "running", and that Ivan is a "newb" for spelling n00b wrong. I'm 1337.

#54 treacherous

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:23 PM

Yes. That is what is happening. Serge has no intention of taking away any of the site's current functionality. I'm just being an old curmudgeon who remembers "back in the day" before all you whippersnappers tracked dirt all over my nice clean linoleum.


I'm just glad it wasn't me this time.

#55 M Bison

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:25 PM

You know, a year or two ago (not entirely sure how long it's been) I was one of the people going an about feats, canon, PIS and all that jargon.

I'm glad I matured since then. Comics are much more fun now. World War Hulk, for instance, is actually a lot of fun to read now that my mind isn't going "BUT THE SENTRY CAN'T LOSE TO THE HULK! THAT'S PIS!"

#56 tomisntblue

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:29 PM

force_echo this was never originally intended to be a "Debate" site. Look at the old CBUB archives from 1996-2006. Here, check out Bruce Wayne vs Tony Stark. See how everyone gets one comment, and nobody wastes it? Some people get technical, sure, but they do it in a geeky fanboy way, not in a "look what I copied off marvel.com" way. It's what I've been saying, many of you have the completely wrong impression of how the site is supposed to work.


The longer I'm around here the more I tend to find myself agreeing with you. I don't necessarily like the way you put everything and hold yourself about most people, but that's not the point. The point is I do agree that just quoting feats and statistics makes for annoying conversation and many times gets us no where. To illustrate my point I ask anyone reading this to think about the last Superman vs Hulk fight they read. However, I have a question, mostly out of curiosity. In a discussion of a hypothetical fight, under given conditions (I.E any half decent fight), how do you think the discussion should go? I know you often times say that people vote for whoever they like best and to think different is to fool yourself, so do you think that should be the basis on the discussion? Or are you saying

#57 Artemis Entreri

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:57 PM

"BUT THE SENTRY CAN'T LOSE TO THE HULK! THAT'S PIS!"


This is exactly why I hate PIS... Of course Hulk could beat Sentry, he's the Strongest one there is! People that read comics often mistake Hulk for a Brutish Brick. This is wrong on so many levels. Hulk is not a character in the traditional sense, rather he's a metaphor... He is Bruce Banner's indomiable strenght of will. The creator(and later even the writers) realized that inside even the the weakest of us exist an inner strength capable of overcoming every obstacle. Hulk is that inner "power of Will" we all posses.

It's not PIS when Hulk win against great odds... It's the power that exist in all of us to succeed when our backs are against the ropes... We all have a Hulk, and we all can overcome a Sentry!

This is what Ivan was saying (I think). More, it's about the story and the character than about feats.If you only read wiki feats then yes Sentry might win, but if you understood what Hulk actually is you'd see PIS was never in the mix during the saga. Read Hulk's comics (Especially Peter David's run) and realize that Hulk is not a super being like most comic book heroes. Instead he is the inner winner in all of us!

#58 Marvel Man

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 09:24 PM

But... But...

Without PIS, how are we suppose to tell people a writer's run sucks? I mean, part of the reason Red Hulk is so bad, is all the massive amount of PIS everywhere? If you don't count PIS, how will you distinguish what previous good writers used, and help ignore the obvious out of character performances a new writer might use. Also, how do you explain a character clearly not doing what he could do (Take Flash for example. In one comic he can outrun the Black Flash and travel to the end of time, but in the next one he gets surprised by that dude in the Jester costume? What? Why didn't he blitz the dude?). Honestly, I'm a big supporter of moderate use of PIS.

... Oh wait, you guys saw my username and stopped reading didn't you?

Note: But seriously, you can't throw cannon and PIS away. What point is there in pitting two characters against each other if we can't say stuff like "Spider Man dodged a missile in Spider Man ##". It's not like we can argue using the writers. I mean, guys like Swamp Thing would stomp everybody...

#59 DSkillz

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 09:52 PM

Wow, HayesMeister, I don't know how you do it, but even your topics are causing a lot of debate. It's like you have a gift for this type of thing, man!

#60 Red Blue Blur

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 11:06 PM

A list of cold, hard facts. These are Not my opinions, I'm just repeating what is written in the electricferret bible (it's on a special part of the boards that you newbs can't see.)

People who quote feats to "win" a discussion are not real fans. Period. Fans talk about story moments, not about statistics.

The site DEVELOPED over the last twelve years. Only in the last 18 months has being an idiot been the most popular trend.

If RedBlueBlur hates an idea, it needs to be implemented yesterday. That guy is pretty much a litmus test for suck.

and your a pompus prick who thinks his opinion is law and cant see past his own ego. Get off the stick and let people talk and debate how they want and stop complaining about it. The site since 2000 has been exactly like it is now. I was there then too. People voted and discussed why they believed someone would win. If you dont like it, dont read it. Spend your time twidling your thumbs waiting for someone to believe you actually know all like you TRY to portray.

Other than pretending to know something I havent honestly seen Ivan contribute anything useful to this site. I may not always agree with treach but atleast he doesnt try and force his will and abuse his power as an admin.




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