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Deadliest Warriors:Predators(Yautja) vs Elites(Sangheili)


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#81 Skirmisher

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:37 PM

It should be noted that in the events of Alien vs Predator 3, Yautja have come across Weyland-Yutani combat synthetics that have built in cloaking devices which also hides their thermal body heat. Why do the Synthetics have cloaking devices, could be answered that Weyland-Yutani has had actually gotten their hands on Predator technology sometime ago and utilized cloaking for combat synthetics and perhaps improved upon it, or the Yautja have had this technology built in their cloaking devices all along.

There is a problem with the cloaking devices for the combat synthetics is that it never really fully covers their body heat. They show up as shimmers in the air with patches of heat still registered in the thermal infrared visual sensors.

Also, there is also the case of light-bend/pred-tech vision which allows them to see through cloaked enemies. Not to mention the other visual modes in the mask such as Air-Molecule vibrational mode and Ultraviolet..

.....Not really getting in this debate, just saying about the Yautja mask's visual ranges is all....

-Rakai'Thwei

Ok, and how are the two Cloaking Technologies in anyway similar?

Weyland-Yutani =/= Sangheili Cloak

Not only that Sangheili cloaks Do cover heat signatures, and I would think that it it would run from the Infrared all the way through the Ultraviolet spectrum.

As for Air-Molecule Vibration Mode... if that's like the one seen in Predators, how that one Predator found Royce after he set all those fires to mask his heat, then it's not going to help much. It took too long to actually allow him to see Royce that the only reason it was effective was because Royce was fatigued and resting/hiding behind a tree.

Besides, not all the Elites are going to be cloaked, just enough of them to win the fight.

#82 RakaiThwei

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:40 PM

Ok, and how are the two Cloaking Technologies in anyway similar?

Weyland-Yutani =/= Sangheili Cloak


Whoah, calm down, Halo-man.

I'm just saying that Yautja have come across something like that before. Just sharing some insight is all.

As for Air-Molecule Vibration Mode... if that's like the one seen in Predators, how that one Predator found Royce after he set all those fires to mask his heat, then it's not going to help much. It took too long to actually allow him to see Royce that the only reason it was effective was because Royce was fatigued and resting/hiding behind a tree.


I only specialize in Predator, Predator 2, AvP, and AvP-R.

I should've been more clear to state that the visual mode I was talking about was the silver/grey visual mode seen in PREDATOR 2.

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#83 ricrery

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:51 PM

How are Preds stronger than Elites?


Let's see... Preds can hurl around Xenomorphs and punch them through pillars, run through walls as if they were made of paper, be hit by lightning and not take any noticeable effects, and have bullets bounce off their skin.

Elites are stronger than Spartans who can lift 2-3 tons easy, even in the books MC had trouble fighting one unarmed.


No, Master Chief's (an average Spartan in terms of strength) maximum lifting capacity is 1.5 tons, per The Fall of Reach. A young, unblooded Predator can lift a maximum of 2.5 tons. A young unblooded Predator also got whooped by a crippled elder Predator. That's right, the elder was crippled, yet he still won that fight. So... no, the Elite does not hold a strength advantage at all. In terms of durability, the Predator still wins. Remember, 7.62 NATO rounds can puncture an Elite's shields and armor, whereas shotgun blasts knocked down a young Predator, but didn't show any remotely lethal damage done. So... the Predator holds an advantage in both strength and tolerance to damage.

#84 Skirmisher

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:52 PM

Whoah, calm down, Halo-man.

o.0

What are you talking about? I was already calm, and just stating a point.


I'm just saying that Yautja have come across something like that before. Just sharing some insight is all.

Ok, but you came across as saying that Elite Cloaks would not mask heat when clearly they have.


I only specialize in Predator, Predator 2, AvP, and AvP-R.

I should've been more clear to state that the visual mode I was talking about was the silver/grey visual mode seen in PREDATOR 2.

-Rakai'Thwei

Hmm... do you have a link to this, I would actually like to see it.

#85 ricrery

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:58 PM

The motion radar on the Spartans and Elites can only detect mobile targets, with immobile ones being invisible, so the Pred can easily evade its detection and just snipe off the Elite.

#86 Stranglehold-prime

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:04 PM

The motion radar on the Spartans and Elites can only detect mobile targets, with immobile ones being invisible, so the Pred can easily evade its detection and just snipe off the Elite.



Yautja don't have sniping weapons.

#87 RakaiThwei

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:05 PM

o.0

What are you talking about? I was already calm, and just stating a point.


Sometimes you calm off as aggressive and angry. O_o

Ok, but you came across as saying that Elite Cloaks would not mask heat when clearly they have.


Actually I wasn't stating as such, just more or less saying.... just trying to explain somethings in the AvP universe is all. Guess it didn't come out right. My heart is not in this debate.. sorry.

Hmm... do you have a link to this, I would actually like to see it.


Actually yes.



Skip to 1:10 to see it the changing of the visual modes from thermal infrared to the grey/silver visual mode which might be air-molecular vibrational mode.

I'm not sure what the other two visual modes are prior to that are.

And those men who are in the silver jump suits are wearing thermal insulated body heat, and they show up as even darker patches of silver/grey against the background, meaning the Yautja in question can see them.

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#88 Skirmisher

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:08 PM

A young, unblooded Predator can lift a maximum of 2.5 tons.

Proof?

Where do you get such numbers? AvP had doors with 2 ton crush capacity, and Three Unblooded Preds couldn't hope to even budge them.


Remember, 7.62 NATO rounds can puncture an Elite's shields and armor, whereas shotgun blasts knocked down a young Predator

Shotgun =/= Advanced Assault Riffle

The Remington shotgun that was used fires 12 gauge buck, probably double-ought as well.

That would fire about eight .33 caliber balls at just under the speed of sound.

If they were lead, then their weight would be about 3.5g.

At an average Shotgun Muzzle Vilocity of 340m/s, that gives Each ball 203 joules of Ke.

Compare this to the 11.3g 7.62 NATO round that travels at 900m/s, giving a Ke of 4576.5 Joules per round.


Actually yes.



Skip to 1:10 to see it the changing of the visual modes from thermal infrared to the grey/silver visual mode which might be air-molecular vibrational mode.

I'm not sure what the other two visual modes are prior to that are.

And those men who are in the silver jump suits are wearing thermal insulated body heat, and they show up as even darker patches of silver/grey against the background, meaning the Yautja in question can see them.

-Rakai'Thwei

I don't see it....

I see the Normal IR mode
I see the Black mode that only shows the Lamps
I see the Silver/Blue mode that still doesn't show the marines and
I see the Silver/Red mode that also doesn't show the marines...

He only sees and Reacts to them once he switches to Ultraviolet and can see their ultraviolet lights.

#89 ricrery

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:25 PM

Proof?

Where do you get such numbers? AvP had doors with 2 ton crush capacity, and Three Unblooded Preds couldn't hope to even budge them.


Predator: Jungle Concrete. Very strange how you forgot about this, despite this being stated in your own Yautja quantification thread. Go figure.

Shotgun =/= Advanced Assault Riffle


Haha... advanced? Well, maybe, but not very.

The Remington shotgun that was used fires 12 gauge buck, probably double-ought as well.

That would fire about eight .33 caliber balls at just under the speed of sound.

If they were lead, then their weight would be about 3.5g.

At an average Shotgun Muzzle Vilocity of 340m/s, that gives Each ball 203 joules of Ke.


Or 1.6184 kJ total, plus maybe 5 blasts total.

Compare this to the 11.3g 7.62 NATO round that travels at 900m/s, giving a Ke of 4576.5 Joules per round.


Why pick the highest number possible? An empty MA5 weighs 3.8 kilos, and a loaded one weighs 4.1 kilos. That means that with the 32 rounds it has, each weighs only 9.375 grams. That's a total of 3.84 kilojoules per bullet.

#90 RakaiThwei

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:36 PM

I don't see it....

I see the Normal IR mode
I see the Black mode that only shows the Lamps
I see the Silver/Blue mode that still doesn't show the marines and
I see the Silver/Red mode that also doesn't show the marines...

He only sees and Reacts to them once he switches to Ultraviolet and can see their ultraviolet lights.



Maybe I've been wrong all those years on that visual mode... Eeeeh.

-Rakai'Thwei

#91 Skirmisher

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:42 PM

Predator: Jungle Concrete. Very strange how you forgot about this, despite this being stated in your own Yautja quantification thread. Go figure.

Nope, I'm not going there.

AFAIC Preds cannot be over 4 tons in strength.


Or 1.6184 kJ total, plus maybe 5 blasts total.

Please when not talking about tens or hundreds of Kilojoules just state the base measurement.

1618 Joules, per pull of the trigger, also spread out over a Much Larger Area than the 7.62 round, and also rounded tip of a softer material than the AP rounds normally used in MA5's


Why pick the highest number possible? An empty MA5 weighs 3.8 kilos, and a loaded one weighs 4.1 kilos. That means that with the 32 rounds it has, each weighs only 9.375 grams. That's a total of 3.84 kilojoules per bullet

Except writers can't do math. These are the same guys who wanted 60 of these rounds to fit in a clip as big as your hand after all. Even then at 32 rounds, the clip should stick out below by double to triple the current length.

Just because you can do the math, doesn't mean the people at Bungie can.

#92 ricrery

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:58 PM

Except writers can't do math. These are the same guys who wanted 60 of these rounds to fit in a clip as big as your hand after all. Even then at 32 rounds, the clip should stick out below by double to triple the current length.

Just because you can do the math, doesn't mean the people at Bungie can.


Is that so? Then why did the 1.17 teraton MAC exist? If they can do relativistic kinetic energy calculations, they can most certainly do basic addition and subtraction. Also, per normal debating rules, this doesn't prove anything at all. It is the norm to use these numbers because these are part of canon.

#93 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:09 AM

Why does it always devolve into the semantics?

#94 Red Blue Blur

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 08:38 AM

1) Yes, and the point being? Ooh Wow he knocked out a couple towers made of thin pieces of Wood! Whoop-de-freakin-do...

2) Did he have it off at all times? Besides, I say again, if those Thai Solders were Elites, they would WTFPWN him if he were so brazen to do that in front of them.

3) 150 soldiers who were Panicked and Afraid, shooting wildly into the Darkness. Yes, That's Expert Marksmanship I would think.

4) Actually they're Much Better Strategists and Tacticians than the Prophets... The Prophets were the real reason for the War being dragged out so much, as they had a more hands on approach to this war to keep the fact that Humans were Reclaimers secrete. After the Schism, Elites regularly pwned the Prophets who were leading the Brutes. Even a Three to One advantage for the enemy wasn't enough to phase them.

5a) Preds aren't a Warrior Race, they're hunters. That's what they do. they go out and hunt things. Elites are a Warrior Race as they commit their Entire Race to the Concept of War. EVERY Sangheili is trained in Combat, and ALL of them view any other profession as a Hobby.

5b) Ok, No limits fallacy there. Just because they can scramble Human Active Radar and Radio Signals does not mean they can scramble Motion Radar from a Far more advanced Alien Race.

6) Sangheili have Energy Weapons which pwn Predator H2H. Not only that but Sangheili are more Strike Oriented rather than Grapple, but aren't deficient in a fist fight, since they can overpower a Predator.



Yes it does actually.

Spartans have IR and Thermal Vision modes in their HUDs yet in First Strike, even with them they couldn't see Cloaked Elites, and had to explode a tin of talcum powder to shower the area and reveal anything that was cloaked.

Ergo, Cloaked Elite negates Visible and IR signature.

1) The towers were made of stone (an old temple on the island)

2)Yes he left it off for the challenge.

3)150 trained soldiers and hunters using Anit Aircraft guns aimed at ground level, Mortars, Assault rifles, Sniper rifles, grenades, M60s. While yes its not Elites its still 150 heavily armed soldiers fighting one single uncloaked pred.

4) The prophets controlled the big war. The Elites had command over battles and skirmishes. They still got owned by single Spartans or ODST most the time. Not very impressive here.

5)Preds do much more than hunt. The preds have had a war against the bad bloods for years. They fight for supremacy in there own clan. They have much more than hunting. Also there is nothing that says they cannot scramble Elite radar. They have proven to scramble any tech they have tried to so its reasonable that Elite tech gets scrambled as well.

6)The energy weapons cannot penetrate in one hit through the armor. The pred weapons are plasma grade therefore they are just as powerful and can deflect the energy weapons.

7) There is no proof that the Elite cloak blocks out body heat. Thats just your assumption. The Spartans have night vision and standard vision. They have never demonstrated IR vision.

8)Since you like to bring up that the preds cant lift the pyramid doors. You have a at minimum a 4000lbs door showing. Then add in all of the door that is still within the walls. Then since the pyramid changes a force pushes thoughs doors into place. So the preds would have to push in all about 6000lbs of rock plus push against the force that is pushing the stone into place. Also there is no proof they could not have lifted it. They never attempted, so no matter the circumstances, if they didnt attempt you cant say they couldnt. They just chose not too. They chose to honor there hunt no matter what.

9)Strength wise the Elites have shown no feats that a Pred cannot perform.

#95 Skirmisher

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 12:55 PM

1) The towers were made of stone (an old temple on the island)

2)Yes he left it off for the challenge.

3)150 trained soldiers and hunters using Anit Aircraft guns aimed at ground level, Mortars, Assault rifles, Sniper rifles, grenades, M60s. While yes its not Elites its still 150 heavily armed soldiers fighting one single uncloaked pred.

4) The prophets controlled the big war. The Elites had command over battles and skirmishes. They still got owned by single Spartans or ODST most the time. Not very impressive here.

5)Preds do much more than hunt. The preds have had a war against the bad bloods for years. They fight for supremacy in there own clan. They have much more than hunting. Also there is nothing that says they cannot scramble Elite radar. They have proven to scramble any tech they have tried to so its reasonable that Elite tech gets scrambled as well.

6)The energy weapons cannot penetrate in one hit through the armor. The pred weapons are plasma grade therefore they are just as powerful and can deflect the energy weapons.

7) There is no proof that the Elite cloak blocks out body heat. Thats just your assumption. The Spartans have night vision and standard vision. They have never demonstrated IR vision.

8)Since you like to bring up that the preds cant lift the pyramid doors. You have a at minimum a 4000lbs door showing. Then add in all of the door that is still within the walls. Then since the pyramid changes a force pushes thoughs doors into place. So the preds would have to push in all about 6000lbs of rock plus push against the force that is pushing the stone into place. Also there is no proof they could not have lifted it. They never attempted, so no matter the circumstances, if they didnt attempt you cant say they couldnt. They just chose not too. They chose to honor there hunt no matter what.

9)Strength wise the Elites have shown no feats that a Pred cannot perform.

1) So something like this? Don't confuse Chedi for Defensive towers.

Posted Image


2) Or to scare the shit out of badly disciplined and heavily superstitious soldiers...

Posted Image


3) And as you said, it was night, and the power to their lights was cut and their morale was brutally shaken and a Demon from Hell was breathing fire at them, in the ruins of an old Temple complex that more than likely had plenty of places to hide.

4) No more often than not, Elites pwned them still. ODST's were good, but they didn't turn the tides of battle. Spartans were better, but all ground engagements were pretty much lost. And the Prophets still had their hands on the smaller battles as well, each fleet and alot of capitol ships had a Prophet on board to oversee.

5a) So? Elites have been in some kind of War or another since before the founding of the covenant thousands of years ago.

5b) No Limits Fallacy, just because they can scramble one type of radar that actually has nothing to do with Sangheili motion radar, doesn't mean they can scramble Sangheili motion radar.

6) Pred Armour however is not Plasma Grade. Stop trying to toy with words to make them appear to say something they aren't. Pred armour would get penetrated by Plasma weapons, and it is a possibility that Plasma Grade Weapons could resist Plasma Weapons, they wouldn't be deflecting them back like Jedi.

7) Page 205 The Fall of Reach

A Branch opened to another wing. The word GEOLOGY was carved on the entry arch. Through that arch there was a strong infrared source, a razor-thin line that shot straight up and out of the building. The Master Chief only caught a glimpse of the thing - a wink and a blink then it was gone again... it was so Birgit his IR sensors overloaded and automatically shut down.


Spartans have IR vision mode, can see Heat, yet cannot see Cloaked Elites.

8) But Presumably apart of the hunt is the danger of getting stuck in a door that is closing on you. If they were strong enough to lift a 2 ton door, then it wouldn't mean anything, and there would be no danger. So, it would make sense to set the Weight behind the door HIGHER than the level of Strength needed to Lift it by a Predator taking the test. Ergo, Preds (at least Unblooded) cannot lift greater than 2 tons, probably closer to 1 ton or maybe even a half ton.

9) Elite > Spartan in strength...


Are there any more unfounded and simple ideas you would like to try and counter with?

#96 Red Blue Blur

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 03:03 PM

1) So something like this? Don't confuse Chedi for Defensive towers.

2) Or to scare the shit out of badly disciplined and heavily superstitious soldiers...

3) And as you said, it was night, and the power to their lights was cut and their morale was brutally shaken and a Demon from Hell was breathing fire at them, in the ruins of an old Temple complex that more than likely had plenty of places to hide.

4) No more often than not, Elites pwned them still. ODST's were good, but they didn't turn the tides of battle. Spartans were better, but all ground engagements were pretty much lost. And the Prophets still had their hands on the smaller battles as well, each fleet and alot of capitol ships had a Prophet on board to oversee.

5a) So? Elites have been in some kind of War or another since before the founding of the covenant thousands of years ago.

5b) No Limits Fallacy, just because they can scramble one type of radar that actually has nothing to do with Sangheili motion radar, doesn't mean they can scramble Sangheili motion radar.

6) Pred Armour however is not Plasma Grade. Stop trying to toy with words to make them appear to say something they aren't. Pred armour would get penetrated by Plasma weapons, and it is a possibility that Plasma Grade Weapons could resist Plasma Weapons, they wouldn't be deflecting them back like Jedi.

7) Page 205 The Fall of Reach



Spartans have IR vision mode, can see Heat, yet cannot see Cloaked Elites.

8) But Presumably apart of the hunt is the danger of getting stuck in a door that is closing on you. If they were strong enough to lift a 2 ton door, then it wouldn't mean anything, and there would be no danger. So, it would make sense to set the Weight behind the door HIGHER than the level of Strength needed to Lift it by a Predator taking the test. Ergo, Preds (at least Unblooded) cannot lift greater than 2 tons, probably closer to 1 ton or maybe even a half ton.

9) Elite > Spartan in strength...


Are there any more unfounded and simple ideas you would like to try and counter with?

other than the temple is wrong. It was fortified with inner and outer walls with four outer towers and a center tower. Also no matter the soldiers defeating 150 that are heavily armed is an impressive feat for a single being using mostly bladed weapons.
The preds have tech that scrambles technology. Therefore something as simple as a radar which acts as simply sonar would easily be disrupted.
So then The preds that are highly experienced warriors are equal in terms of skill. Then add in there amazing hunting skills and put them in a jungle where they will be VERY comfortable and they have an advantage. The pred armor would hold up not long but efficent enough for the battle to become H2H. Also even if the preds couldnt use the IR they have many different visions. The covenant can not mask there heart beat like seen in PREDATORS.

Finally you dont seem to understand. The doors weighed a minimum of 2 tons. Add in how the entire pyramid was shifting. The door would have been massive because the door moved down but somewhere else in the pyramid another slide open. So it has the weight of two doors making it 4 tons. Then add in all the stone that would be hidden inside of a wall that adds another 2 tons possibly. You now have a 6 ton door. Now add what ever force was moving the door and the preds would have to push against 6 tons PLUS the force of the machine moving the door.

You seem to not understand things about architecture and engineering. For a object to move it must have a force behind it. ERGO there is a force of equal or greater mass moving the 6 ton stone thus making the force required to lift it be 12 tons or more.

#97 Skirmisher

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 03:37 PM

1) It was fortified with inner and outer walls with four outer towers and a center tower.

2) Also no matter the soldiers defeating 150 that are heavily armed is an impressive feat for a single being using mostly bladed weapons.

3) The preds have tech that scrambles technology. Therefore something as simple as a radar which acts as simply sonar would easily be disrupted.

4) So then The preds that are highly experienced warriors are equal in terms of skill. Then add in there amazing hunting skills and put them in a jungle where they will be VERY comfortable and they have an advantage.

5) The pred armor would hold up not long but efficent enough for the battle to become H2H.

6) Also even if the preds couldnt use the IR they have many different visions. The covenant can not mask there heart beat like seen in PREDATORS.

7) Finally you dont seem to understand. The doors weighed a minimum of 2 tons...

1) So there are Thousands of Ankor Wat's all over Thailand? Also, like I said, don't mistake Stupa's for Towers

2) Yes, it would be impressive had the 150 soldiers not been at night without power against an enemy they have never before comprehended except in their worst dreams. The Predator used Fear and Panic to his advantage as well as the Horrible night time conditions. More than likely in the chaos and confusion more than 50% of those Thai casualties would have been from friendly fire.

3) Once again that is a No Limits Fallacy.

"The no limits fallacy is the illogical idea that a poorly understood phenomena can be extrapolated to infinity or assumed to not have any maximum value or threshold."

Prove that they can jam Sangheili Motion Radar, or else they can't.

4) Actually Preds are only comfortable in the Heat, Jungles are also Humid, which knocks out IR vision. Not only that but Sangheilios is a verdant Jungle planet, the Sangheili evolved in rich Jungles presumably... If anyone has Homefield advantage it's the Sangheili.

5) Have you seen the Last Samurai? Remember when the Samurai got into H2H with the soldiers? Yeah, now make those Soldiers as well trained as the Samurai, in Close Combat as well... then give then armour that is a match for the Samurai... then give them Energy Shields that go overtop that Armour... oh and the guns, replace them with shorter guns that have Full Auto... he Samurai (Predators) don't stand a chance.

6) The Problem with that is that it isn't that good. You say how long it took the Predator to filter out all the background noise and get a beed on Royce? He could only do that because Royce was fatigued and hiding behind a tree to catch his breath. In a Battlefield like this they wouldn't have the time.

7) Except it was the Force behind the doors that was 2 tons, not the total weight of just that door. Meaning that the door was probably 400lbs, that there was another door adding it's weight so total 800lbs, plus maybe 400lbs of stone in the walls, and then the force of the mechanism totaling it to 2 tons of Force...

2 Tons is apparently too heavy for a Pred to Lift, so that means that they aren't anywhere Close to 2 tons. 2 tons is a DANGEROUSLY HEAVY Weight to them.

#98 ricrery

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 06:04 PM

You know what's funny? The Predator can laugh off lightning, yet he's going to be somehow threatened by Covenant plasma weapons.

#99 Red Blue Blur

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 06:31 PM

You know what's funny? The Predator can laugh off lightning, yet he's going to be somehow threatened by Covenant plasma weapons.

whats funnier is that Skirmisher tries to downplay everything in his favor. A solid stone door standing at 8 to 10 feet high and about 5 to 8 feet thick would weigh more than 400lbs. More like 2 tons and thats just the actual stone part shown. Skirmisher again does not understand how engineering works.

You say if I cant prove that the preds have tech that could scramble the radar then it wont huh? You have no proof that the jammer wont work.

Also the IR worked in the first pred movie in a hot and humid jungle so it would work here.

Also when it comes to the weapons the preds have the advantage in a single weapon, Plasma Caster. It was shown to destroy 2 stone towers in less than 2 minutes. The towers were vaporized were the caster hit. That is much like the fuel rod gun. Only problem is that all 9 preds have that weapon and only one elite has it.

No it took the pred a minute to find Reed because he had his head beat in a couple times before switching views.

Also you try to downplay the 150 soldier feat but and elite couldnt do it from everything shown from there achievments.

#100 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 06:43 PM

You know what's funny? The Predator can laugh off lightning, yet he's going to be somehow threatened by Covenant plasma weapons.

Humans can actually survive lightning bolts... does this mean humans can survive the Covenant's plasma weaponry?




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