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Deadliest Warriors:Predators(Yautja) vs Elites(Sangheili)


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#61 Skirmisher

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 08:39 PM

Which still doesn't support 45 kilojoule single bolts.

Actually it kinda does.

The amount of fire he put into the Arbiter would have easily tied a couple shots from a PR, and besides, that's it's maximum theoretical yield.

Bottom is still 20 KJ


Actually, in Reach, Noble 6 kills a shielded Ultra by firing a third of his MA5 at it.

We don't know any conditions set on them before attacking N6.

They were on a Battlefield, presumably the Elite could have had it's shields shorted out BEFORE attacking N6 somewhere else in some other battle. Same for pretty much all the others too.

They had after all just fought against the UNSC Reach Army, and a Good number of UNSC Marines. Complete with Vehicle and air support while it lasted.

#62 ricrery

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 08:51 PM

Actually it kinda does.

The amount of fire he put into the Arbiter would have easily tied a couple shots from a PR, and besides, that's it's maximum theoretical yield.

Bottom is still 20 KJ


Actually, a single volley of 9 bolts would generate 270 kilojoules, or 66 MA5 7.62mm NATO rounds. He didn't fire nearly that much, and that's just one volley from the rifle.

We don't know any conditions set on them before attacking N6.

They were on a Battlefield, presumably the Elite could have had it's shields shorted out BEFORE attacking N6 somewhere else in some other battle. Same for pretty much all the others too.

They had after all just fought against the UNSC Reach Army, and a Good number of UNSC Marines. Complete with Vehicle and air support while it lasted.


Except we see the Ultra is not under fire, and was not fired on long enough for his shields to recharge.

#63 Skirmisher

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 09:01 PM

Actually, a single volley of 9 bolts would generate 270 kilojoules, or 66 MA5 7.62mm NATO rounds. He didn't fire nearly that much, and that's just one volley from the rifle.

Plus the Pistol... oh and he almost got Crushed with a Slip Drive.


Except we see the Ultra is not under fire, and was not fired on long enough for his shields to recharge.

Yes and if this can happen to the Chief's Armour then the same could happen to others...

What do you think that Covenant Armour systems need not be Repaired or require Replacement parts on occasion? Their Armour and Shielding is good, but not That good.

Presumably the Ultra could have had it's Shielding damage in a previous fight. It can happen if it's shields are dropped and then it's shielding matrix is shot... It could still work, but be at reduced strength.

We don't know how much battle the Elite in question had seen before advancing upon Rally Point Omega.

#64 ricrery

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 09:58 PM

Plus the Pistol... oh and he almost got Crushed with a Slip Drive.


Does the pistol have tens of kilojoules of kinetic energy?

Yes and if this can happen to the Chief's Armour then the same could happen to others...


Look at First Strike page 61 nearly at the end. Apparently an entire pistol clip can defeat the shields of an Elite.

#65 Skirmisher

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:08 PM

Does the pistol have tens of kilojoules of kinetic energy?

Look at First Strike page 61 nearly at the end. Apparently an entire pistol clip can defeat the shields of an Elite.

IDK what the energy is behind the Pistol... due to it's SAPHE ammo it could theoretically act like a HEAT round, and that does far more damage than just Ke.

Presumably since 8 to 12 rounds of it are equal to a full clip or more of MA5 rounds, then they do a Hell of alot of Damage.

#66 ricrery

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:12 PM

Presumably since 8 to 12 rounds of it are equal to a full clip or more of MA5 rounds, then they do a Hell of alot of Damage.


And there are only 8 rounds in a clip as well, supporting that they don't have 45 kilojoule bolts.

#67 Skirmisher

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:17 PM

And there are only 8 rounds in a clip as well, supporting that they don't have 45 kilojoule bolts.

Presumably the Pistol also has 20 to 45 KJ rounds?

Realistically Pistols should be Obsolete in settings with Energy Shields...

#68 ricrery

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:22 PM

Presumably the Pistol also has 20 to 45 KJ rounds?


That would mean that the Elite can't survive one second of his own weapon firing at him, literally.

#69 Skirmisher

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:25 PM

That would mean that the Elite can't survive one second of his own weapon firing at him, literally.

How so? If his shields can take 8+ Plasma Rifle/Pistol hits at 45KJ as seen everywhere... then he could take a hit from his own weapon firing at him.

Now if you meant that he couldn't take a hit UNSHIELDED then yes, a Plasma round would probably gut him depending on where it hit. Their Armour is quite resilient...

#70 ricrery

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 10:34 PM

How so? If his shields can take 8+ Plasma Rifle/Pistol hits at 45KJ as seen everywhere... then he could take a hit from his own weapon firing at him.


But his shields can't tank 8+ 20-45 kJ rounds (which they don't have, in terms of kinetic energy at least). The novel shows that a clip can take down an Elite's shields, cut through his armor, and kill him.

Now if you meant that he couldn't take a hit UNSHIELDED then yes, a Plasma round would probably gut him depending on where it hit. Their Armour is quite resilient...


You mean the same armor that 7.62x51mm NATO rounds can puncture, right?

#71 Skirmisher

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 11:18 PM

But his shields can't tank 8+ 20-45 kJ rounds (which they don't have, in terms of kinetic energy at least). The novel shows that a clip can take down an Elite's shields, cut through his armor, and kill him.

Yeah, for most human weapons it takes about a whole Clip to kill or at least drop an Elites shields.

Regardless of how absurd that is based on what the damage the rounds could do...

It's just that Bungie had a Pistol that would be a .50 semi-auto doorstop had they taken realism into the equation. Instead they balanced it so that the Pistol could actually work in this setting... how they did that IDK.


You mean the same armor that 7.62x51mm NATO rounds can puncture, right?

True, but then pretty much any Universes armour (That's not too far out there) would be penetrated by their supped up rounds. And It still takes a couple shots to actually put them down.

#72 Red Blue Blur

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 09:46 AM

I would just like to point out that an Elite's shield goes down after one physical strike from an opponent. So essentially if they are hit with anything by the preds then there shields are down. The plasma caster literally destroyed a tower vaporizing it with a single blast. Thats more than enough to take out an Elite. Also armor made of Dlex is highly resistant, very similar to the spartan armor.

Again I will state in this setting the preds have the upper hand, it would be different in a large scale war. This set up has the advantage of guerilla style fighting which in every instance I have seen or read goes in favor of the preds.

Also the pred in the novel i mentioned defeated 150 soldeirs with massive firepower against one single pred. Even if it was the Thai army thats impressive seeing as how he beat them in just a few hours. I couldnt see a low ranking Elite doing the same.

#73 Skirmisher

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 03:18 PM

I would just like to point out that an Elite's shield goes down after one physical strike from an opponent.

Because they can put several tons of force behind their Melee blows. Thrown Weapons don't work like that, and neither do projectile weapons.

Presumably if a Yautja were to actually get up to an Elite and were to Melee a Defenseless Elite with a full powered punch then the shields would drop.

But the thing is, you are taking Game Mechanics a little to far. Meleeing in the game was Simplified like a lobotomizing someone of an already low IQ... They take absolutely Nothing into account when fighting hand to hand in the game, and treat the attack like a Zero Range projectile. The World doesn't work like that though. If they wanted to make it more realistic, then Melee would probably use a quick time event that pits players against each other in a timed game of rock paper scissors. That would be fun, and more realistic than it is... but even that isn't too close to reality either.


The plasma caster literally destroyed a tower vaporizing it with a single blast. Thats more than enough to take out an Elite.

Ok, a High Powered Shot could presumably do that. But what's the time it takes to charge that shot? I would imagine that it would take a relative amount of time to charge it as the damage it would output. Larger shots should need longer charge times.


Also armor made of Dlex is highly resistant, very similar to the spartan armor.

And even Spartan Armour fails after a couple hits. Energy Shielding is the way to go, it protects you from headshots, and things that would otherwise kill you dead.


Again I will state in this setting the preds have the upper hand, it would be different in a large scale war. This set up has the advantage of guerilla style fighting which in every instance I have seen or read goes in favor of the preds.

Except they are fighting against an opponent that has dealt with Cloaks...

Is not hindered by the terrain...

And has Motion Radar virtually destroying the Predators advantage of stealth.


The Preds would have to do a Massive Rethink on their hunting strategy, as Sangheili aren't like humans. They're stronger, and much much more combat orientated in their thinking.

As well, rather than Fear of the enemy as you would have with Humans, they would probably evoke an Intense Hatred of the enemy. Cowards that only use Cloak and hide in the shadows, never fighting like Real Warriors.


Also the pred in the novel i mentioned defeated 150 soldeirs with massive firepower against one single pred. Even if it was the Thai army thats impressive seeing as how he beat them in just a few hours. I couldnt see a low ranking Elite doing the same.

No, you wouldn't because a Low Ranking Elite doesn't have the kind of equipment that Preds just give out to their children...

Sangheili have to Earn their equipment, they have to show that they don't need that equipment to become proficient killers. And Besides, if even a low ranking Sangheili warrior was equipped with Cloak, he could do the same thing against the Thai Army.

Because against an enemy that has no tech that can see through your cloak, they're easy prey for anything.

#74 force_echo

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:07 PM

How are Preds stronger than Elites? Elites are stronger than Spartans who can lift 2-3 tons easy, even in the books MC had trouble fighting one unarmed.

Why are people comparing Elites to the freaking Thai army? The Elites have tech that nullifies Predator cloaking and are superior to the Thai army in EVERY way. Also, the obliterating the tower thing, not really that special. A fuel Rod gun could do that easy, and it dosen't have to charge anything.

#75 Red Blue Blur

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:14 PM

1) the problem with your logic is that the pred destroyed the towers in a minute or two. Also other than the plasma caster he only had a glaive and wrist blades that he used.

2) He allowed the soldiers to see him and didnt use the cloak to try and strike fear into them. So that eliminates the cloak problem.

3) With all the soldiers being able to see him, they used AA guns mounted so they were able to fire at ground targets, multiple grenades and 150 soldiers shooting at him he came away with some scratches and dents in his armor.

4) The game is the origin of Halo. Which is were the story came from. The Elites are not brillant strategists. In almost all points of the game they just follow orders of the prophets. The only real Elite warrior was the Arbiter and his sqaud he led.

5) The preds are a warrior race. Not just hunters. They dont go out to conquer planets but have defended effeciently many times. As a clan they use guerilla tactics and would be a much more effective fighting force in the jungle. Also in every encounter: books, movies, and games the preds have a device that scrambles radar and radios. The same would happen here.

6) Finally the Preds are much more efficent H2H fighters than anything the Elites have demonstrated whether it be games or novels.

IN THIS SETTING THE PREDS WILL NOT LOSE.

#76 Red Blue Blur

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:18 PM

How are Preds stronger than Elites? Elites are stronger than Spartans who can lift 2-3 tons easy, even in the books MC had trouble fighting one unarmed.

Why are people comparing Elites to the freaking Thai army? The Elites have tech that nullifies Predator cloaking and are superior to the Thai army in EVERY way. Also, the obliterating the tower thing, not really that special. A fuel Rod gun could do that easy, and it dosen't have to charge anything.

I was pointing out that one low ranking Predator beat 150 trained heavily armed soldiers in one night using a plasma caster, wrist blades, and glaive while uncloaked. He walked away with only scratches. Also while the Elites have radar that tells where the preds are they are still invisible and like has been shown the radar is not 100% accurate. The cloaks the Elites have dont mask body heat. Also one Elite has a fuel rod gun and EVERY pred has a plasma caster

again the preds win.

#77 Stranglehold-prime

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:31 PM

All I ave to say is that I am glad that this has turned into a big debate and not a flame war. :D


Both parties brought up valid points.

#78 Skirmisher

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 07:43 PM

1) the problem with your logic is that the pred destroyed the towers in a minute or two. Also other than the plasma caster he only had a glaive and wrist blades that he used.

2) He allowed the soldiers to see him and didnt use the cloak to try and strike fear into them. So that eliminates the cloak problem.

3) With all the soldiers being able to see him, they used AA guns mounted so they were able to fire at ground targets, multiple grenades and 150 soldiers shooting at him he came away with some scratches and dents in his armor.

4) The game is the origin of Halo. Which is were the story came from. The Elites are not brillant strategists. In almost all points of the game they just follow orders of the prophets. The only real Elite warrior was the Arbiter and his sqaud he led.

5) The preds are a warrior race. Not just hunters. They dont go out to conquer planets but have defended effeciently many times. As a clan they use guerilla tactics and would be a much more effective fighting force in the jungle. Also in every encounter: books, movies, and games the preds have a device that scrambles radar and radios. The same would happen here.

6) Finally the Preds are much more efficent H2H fighters than anything the Elites have demonstrated whether it be games or novels.

IN THIS SETTING THE PREDS WILL LOSE.

1) Yes, and the point being? Ooh Wow he knocked out a couple towers made of thin pieces of Wood! Whoop-de-freakin-do...

2) Did he have it off at all times? Besides, I say again, if those Thai Solders were Elites, they would WTFPWN him if he were so brazen to do that in front of them.

3) 150 soldiers who were Panicked and Afraid, shooting wildly into the Darkness. Yes, That's Expert Marksmanship I would think.

4) Actually they're Much Better Strategists and Tacticians than the Prophets... The Prophets were the real reason for the War being dragged out so much, as they had a more hands on approach to this war to keep the fact that Humans were Reclaimers secrete. After the Schism, Elites regularly pwned the Prophets who were leading the Brutes. Even a Three to One advantage for the enemy wasn't enough to phase them.

5a) Preds aren't a Warrior Race, they're hunters. That's what they do. they go out and hunt things. Elites are a Warrior Race as they commit their Entire Race to the Concept of War. EVERY Sangheili is trained in Combat, and ALL of them view any other profession as a Hobby.

5b) Ok, No limits fallacy there. Just because they can scramble Human Active Radar and Radio Signals does not mean they can scramble Motion Radar from a Far more advanced Alien Race.

6) Sangheili have Energy Weapons which pwn Predator H2H. Not only that but Sangheili are more Strike Oriented rather than Grapple, but aren't deficient in a fist fight, since they can overpower a Predator.


The cloaks the Elites have dont mask body heat.

Yes it does actually.

Spartans have IR and Thermal Vision modes in their HUDs yet in First Strike, even with them they couldn't see Cloaked Elites, and had to explode a tin of talcum powder to shower the area and reveal anything that was cloaked.

Ergo, Cloaked Elite negates Visible and IR signature.

#79 Ruinus

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:24 PM

?

So all the Elites at the end of Reach had prior damage to their shields?

#80 RakaiThwei

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 08:27 PM

Yes it does actually.

Ergo, Cloaked Elite negates Visible and IR signature.


It should be noted that in the events of Alien vs Predator 3, Yautja have come across Weyland-Yutani combat synthetics that have built in cloaking devices which also hides their thermal body heat. Why do the Synthetics have cloaking devices, could be answered that Weyland-Yutani has had actually gotten their hands on Predator technology sometime ago and utilized cloaking for combat synthetics and perhaps improved upon it, or the Yautja have had this technology built in their cloaking devices all along.

There is a problem with the cloaking devices for the combat synthetics is that it never really fully covers their body heat. They show up as shimmers in the air with patches of heat still registered in the thermal infrared visual sensors.

Also, there is also the case of light-bend/pred-tech vision which allows them to see through cloaked enemies. Not to mention the other visual modes in the mask such as Air-Molecule vibrational mode and Ultraviolet..

.....Not really getting in this debate, just saying about the Yautja mask's visual ranges is all....

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