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Deadliest Warriors:Predators(Yautja) vs Elites(Sangheili)


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#181 ricrery

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 11:26 AM

Its game mechanics because it occurs in the game outside a cutscene, what other evidence is needed, thats the definition of game mechanics.


Except you have to prove it is limited by game mechanics. It's not actually something that occurs in gameplay.

What does it matter if the Predator tanked the lightning in the first place? I don't see how that matters at all in this debate


Um, what? It does matter.

Elites don't use weapons that electrocute you.


Wrong. The electrocution comes from the voltage, which is what Covenant plasma bolts have. They generate 100,000-150,000 volts at .2-.3 amperes per second, or 20-45 kilowatts. A lightning strike generally has millions of volts at millions of amperes, or terawatts. That means that the bolt itself has megajoules of energy, most of which that doesn't go into its target. If both were to go through the heart, then it would get zapped.

#182 force_echo

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:36 PM

Covenant weapons are PLASMA weapons, they don't use electricity. They might use 20-45 kilowatts to GENERATE the plasma, but Covenant weapons don't shoot electrocute you, you don't see an anode sticking to the target like a taser.

#183 ricrery

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 03:50 PM

Covenant weapons are PLASMA weapons, they don't use electricity.


And do you know what lightning is? Plasma.

They might use 20-45 kilowatts to GENERATE the plasma, but Covenant weapons don't shoot electrocute you, you don't see an anode sticking to the target like a taser.


Actually, they do use volts, just not enough to zap you from a normal hit. They'd need to hit somewhere near the heart to fry it via electricity.

#184 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 05:14 PM

How about you prove MACs are restricted by game mechanics already? I'm tired of your "they are game mechanics because... they are game mechanics" nonsense right now. Put up or shut up. End of story.

This is because everything you see in Game is Rendered and is an Actual Object.

Those ships you see off in the distance? They're Actual In Game Objects, being rendered just like an Elite, or a Banshee, or a Pelican.

What does this mean? Everything they do is still bound by the limitations of the Game Engine. They Fire MAC's like the Gauss Hog fires it's shells, they probably uses the Same [Cannon.exe] as the Gausshog for their MACs, with maybe slight alterations.

But the Fact remains, They are still bound by the Limitations of the Game Engine and are Based in Game Mechanics.

#185 force_echo

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 05:33 PM

And do you know what lightning is? Plasma.



Actually, they do use volts, just not enough to zap you from a normal hit. They'd need to hit somewhere near the heart to fry it via electricity.

Lightning is not plasma, and as far as I'm concerned, this statement undermines your scientific credibility for the entire debate. Lightning is an electrical charge, a stream of electrons, not an energized gas like plasma is. Lightning CREATES plasma due to its pure energy instantly ionizing and superheating the air around it, but lightning is not plasma. Plasma is an energized gas, when heated, it will ionize into electrons, positively charged particles, and some neutral particles. It is NOT, and is nowhere near a discharge of electricity like lighting is, they do not even measure energy in the same form. I find it amazing that Benjamin Franklin knew this hundreds of years ago, and some people today do not.

#186 ricrery

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 05:53 PM

Lightning is not plasma, and as far as I'm concerned, this statement undermines your scientific credibility for the entire debate.


Well, given what Bungie said, Covenant plasma weapons are about as close to plasma as lightning is.

Lightning is an electrical charge, a stream of electrons, not an energized gas like plasma is. Lightning CREATES plasma due to its pure energy instantly ionizing and superheating the air around it, but lightning is not plasma.


And do you know what Covenant weapons are quantified from? Volts and amperes. Want to know how lightning is? Volts and amperes. How about you learn to read what I say from now on?

Plasma is an energized gas, when heated, it will ionize into electrons, positively charged particles, and some neutral particles. It is NOT, and is nowhere near a discharge of electricity like lighting is, they do not even measure energy in the same form. I find it amazing that Benjamin Franklin knew this hundreds of years ago, and some people today do not.


Oh, and did you even look at the post showing a Plasma Rifles output?

http://www.bungie.ne...k=h3plasmarifle

The weapon has a power output of 100~150 Kv@2~3 dA.


Do you see that, Force Echo? 100-150 kilovolts at 2-3 deciamperes. Wait... Isn't that how one finds the output of ligh- ... Oh...

#187 force_echo

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 06:27 PM

Well, given what Bungie said, Covenant plasma weapons are about as close to plasma as lightning is.



And do you know what Covenant weapons are quantified from? Volts and amperes. Want to know how lightning is? Volts and amperes. How about you learn to read what I say from now on?



Oh, and did you even look at the post showing a Plasma Rifles output?

http://www.bungie.ne...k=h3plasmarifle



Do you see that, Force Echo? 100-150 kilovolts at 2-3 deciamperes. Wait... Isn't that how one finds the output of ligh- ... Oh...

For the last time, the freaking plasma is not measured in volts or amps, its the power the rifle puts in takes to shoot the plasma bolts, the plasma damage itself is not measured in either volts nor amperes, so again, I don't know why this is a factor in the debate. If anything, it shows the power output of the rifle's battery not its plasma. So how bout you go to your physics teacher have him explain to you why plasma is not measured like electricity is.

#188 ricrery

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 07:40 PM

the plasma damage itself is not measured in either volts nor amperes, so again, I don't know why this is a factor in the debate.


The output of the rifle is less than a lightning bolt, but anyway, in terms of heat, even the lightning wins. It generally heats up the air by tens of thousands of degrees Fahrenheit, so assuming that only a few grams of air, then it's still tens of kilojoules.

So how bout you go to your physics teacher have him explain to you why plasma is not measured like electricity is.


And according to Bungie themselves, Covenant plasma is not normal plasma, but some exotic shit, as supported by Halo Reach's cutscene in Nights of Solstice.

#189 sirmethos

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 07:53 PM

And do you know what Covenant weapons are quantified from? Volts and amperes. Want to know how lightning is? Volts and amperes. How about you learn to read what I say from now on?


from what i can see, Force_Echo was reading what you said just fine, what you said was simply wrong

And do you know what lightning is? Plasma.


lightning is NOT, nor has it ever Been, Plasma.



And according to Bungie themselves, Covenant plasma is not normal plasma, but some exotic shit, as supported by Halo Reach's cutscene in Nights of Solstice.


the 'exotic shit' as you so eloquently put it, is simply that the Plasma is generated from types of Gas that are not found on Earth.

Plasma = Ionized gas. however, this can be done with Any kind of gas. be it Hydrogen-Plasma, Iron-Plasma, Plutonium-Plasma. the only thing it takes is sufficient heat to turn an element into gas, and then ionize it. some forms of plasma are low temperature, usually the elements with a low boiling point, while other forms of plasma are extremely high temperature, ie. elements with an extremely high boiling point

#190 ricrery

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 07:57 PM

the 'exotic shit' as you so eloquently put it, is simply that the Plasma is generated from types of Gas that are not found on Earth.


Complete bullshit. Bungie stated that their "plasma" was some like some sort of arcane magic shit.

#191 sirmethos

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:20 PM

Complete bullshit. Bungie stated that their "plasma" was some like some sort of arcane magic shit.


i assume you have a link then, so we can see this statement for ourselves, without proof, the only statement we have is yours. and based on your earlier statement that lightning is plasma, that doesn't really count for much.

but post a link so we can see bungie's statement about 'their plasma' for ourselves, and i'll be willing to concede on that point.


also, my explanation about Plasma was simply the physical facts. plasma = ionized gas. ask your physics teacher and he(or she) will tell you the same thing, though likely with more(and longer) words.

#192 ricrery

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:26 PM

i assume you have a link then, so we can see this statement for ourselves, without proof, the only statement we have is yours. and based on your earlier statement that lightning is plasma, that doesn't really count for much.

but post a link so we can see bungie's statement about 'their plasma' for ourselves, and i'll be willing to concede on that point.


I'll do that later.

also, my explanation about Plasma was simply the physical facts. plasma = ionized gas. ask your physics teacher and he(or she) will tell you the same thing, though likely with more(and longer) words.


I stated previously that Bungie said that Covenant plasma isn't actual plasma, but I guess that went right through your head, didn't it? Here's a lesson for you. If you are incapable of comprehending an obvious statement, you probably shouldn't start poisoning the well.

#193 sirmethos

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:39 PM

Here's a lesson for you. If you are incapable of comprehending an obvious statement, you probably shouldn't start poisoning the well.


if you can make statements as idiotic as saying that lightning = plasma, then you shouldn't enter science based debates in the first place.

#194 RakaiThwei

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:41 PM

I think it's safe to say this debate is long dead.

-Rakai'Thwei

#195 ricrery

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:46 PM

if you can make statements as idiotic as saying that lightning = plasma, then you shouldn't enter science based debates in the first place.


Lightning actually generates plasma because of its heat/velocity. It's not plasma itself, that I've known before this debate. And if you can't read a rather basic statement and state a defense the opposite of what someone else was saying, then you probably shouldn't have entered such a debate at all.

But yes, this thread is over.

#196 Ruinus

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 08:47 PM

Hey Skir, can you post that one quote with the MC shooting some Elite in the head?

#197 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 09:00 PM

Hey Skir, can you post that one quote with the MC shooting some Elite in the head?

Page 315 The Fall of Reach ~ At this point the Ranger and the Chief had already depleted their shields.

"The Master Chief pushed away and fired the pistol again.
the bolt of fire caught the Elite in the face.
It writhed and clawed at nothing. The Elite shuddered..."

Shot it in the face, an autonomic reaction was for it to cover it's face, but there was nothing there. It melted off his head, it didn't explode his head, it just simply melted it away. The fact that there was Clawing at Nothing rather than a Fused mass of flesh or chard remains, or anything else means that simply there was Nothing There, no face, no helmet, no head.

One uncharged shot from the Plasma Pistol Melted away the Rangers head.

#198 Ruinus

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 09:05 PM

Page 315 The Fall of Reach ~ At this point the Ranger and the Chief had already depleted their shields.

"The Master Chief pushed away and fired the pistol again.
the bolt of fire caught the Elite in the face.
It writhed and clawed at nothing. The Elite shuddered..."

Shot it in the face, an autonomic reaction was for it to cover it's face, but there was nothing there. It melted off his head, it didn't explode his head, it just simply melted it away. The fact that there was Clawing at Nothing rather than a Fused mass of flesh or chard remains, or anything else means that simply there was Nothing There, no face, no helmet, no head.

One uncharged shot from the Plasma Pistol Melted away the Rangers head.


??? I was kinda hoping for the entire thing... ;)

Specifically face =/= head. So, I dunno where you are saying "melted face" means "melted head".

Or wait, wasn't this Elite in some sort of grappled with the MC? Why then, are we taking it as a given that it's attemptint go "claw at nothing" at it's face? Given that it was just, you know, shot in the face, it could be "clawing at nothing" in a blinded attempted to harm the MC. Or the pain from being shot in the face made it literalyl claw at nothing, ie it was waving it's arms around in a death knell before finally dying.

So I don't see where it's established that its entire head was gone.

#199 Skirmisher

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 09:17 PM

??? I was kinda hoping for the entire thing... ;)

Specifically face =/= head. So, I dunno where you are saying "melted face" means "melted head".

Or wait, wasn't this Elite in some sort of grappled with the MC? Why then, are we taking it as a given that it's attemptint go "claw at nothing" at it's face? Given that it was just, you know, shot in the face, it could be "clawing at nothing" in a blinded attempted to harm the MC. Or the pain from being shot in the face made it literalyl claw at nothing, ie it was waving it's arms around in a death knell before finally dying.

So I don't see where it's established that its entire head was gone.

No, pre that quote they were grappling and a previous couple of shots and strikes downed both their shields. Immediately after that Quote, the Elite was dead from having no head left.

Shot it in the face, an autonomic reaction was for it to cover it's face, but there was nothing there. It melted off his head, it didn't explode his head, it just simply melted it away. The fact that there was Clawing at Nothing rather than a Fused mass of flesh or chard remains, or anything else means that simply there was Nothing There, no face, no helmet, no head.

#200 Ruinus

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Posted 12 January 2011 - 09:40 PM

Shot it in the face, an autonomic reaction was for it to cover it's face, but there was nothing there. It melted off his head, it didn't explode his head, it just simply melted it away. The fact that there was Clawing at Nothing rather than a Fused mass of flesh or chard remains, or anything else means that simply there was Nothing There, no face, no helmet, no head.


Ok, I'm confused. Is this the actual quote from the book, or is this just you?

Because if it is just your speculation then the red highlighted part is what I take issue with. Assuming for a moment that the Elite is actually covering it's face ("clawed at nothing") then this does not follow.

You assume:
"Elite shot in face, it goes to cover face and finds nothing, means the head was gone."

When it could just as easily be:
"Elite shot in face, it goes to cover face and finds nothing because the face* is no longer there, and dies." It's face had been boiled away, leaving only roasted skull or flesh.

Third option:
"Elite shot in face, blindly thrases about ("clawed at nothing") and dies."

This argument of yours relies on:
  • Equating the face of an Elite with it's entire head.
  • Assuming the Elite is clawing at its face, instead of simply clawing about randomly.
  • Assuming the Elite's arms can somehow function without a head for it to claw at it's head (or lack therefore) before dying.
*Specifially, a face:
The surface of the front of the head from the top of the forehead to the base of the chin and from ear to ear.

Second definition:
That part of the head, esp. of man, in which the eyes, cheeks, nose, and mouth are situated; visage; countenance.




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