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#21 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:17 AM

What?

That argument is utter bullshit and you know it.

Their guns = our guns, because the props they used for their guns = our guns. That said they look EXACTLY LIKE OUR GUNS AND HAVE SIMILAR SIZED BARRELS. What does this mean? They have the Same sizes of Caliber as our guns.



Again, out of universe explanation. All the replica guns used in the movies and shown in the movies shoot energy bolts, none of them shoot bullets. The only ones that do are the Tusken Cyclers, and those only pierce the eye lenses or the black underarmor areas. I mean, I even specifically posted a picture of a Verpine sniper rifle, with it's ridiculous barrel.

Price and production. Why use super metals to make bullets for a gun, when you could use a Blaster.

Why use a Unobtanium Bullet when out in the boonies you're only real target most of the time will be a womprat?


Except the unobtanium is so widespread in their galaxy that chairs, cups, and freaking starship hulls.

Yes, because that would be Oversized to them because it's oversized to us and our guns = their guns, at least in Caliber.


Again, OoU explanation. Show some evidence of their AP rounds or large caliber rounds.

IDK? It's nonstandard ammo, there are some types for assault rifles, but I've never seen them in action.


So... then why did you say the SEALs would be able to take at least one round from blasters, if you then compared their effects to HE and incendiary rounds from large rifles?

#22 Jason Redfield

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:22 AM

Why would a .50 cal round penetrate their armor?

Because a .50 cal round is capable of piercing a hardened steel armor plate that is about 1" thick from over 100 yards away, and their armor much thinner than that. And because certain .50 cal rounds (generally the "favorite" of the military) are capable of piercing 11mm of solid rolled homogeneous armor, the same stuff they put on armored vehicles. I have trouble believing stormtrooper armor is equivalent to that. Besides, the momentum and kinetic energy alone would probably do the job.


BTW, modern armor takes HE or incendiary rounds? Peoplel wearing such armor can survive this?


Err, depends on the caliber more than specialty stuff like that. Incendiary rounds, yes. The ballistic fibers as well as any hard armor inserts are both flame-resistant. And there aren't any true high-explosive rounds until you get to .50 BMG. So a direct hit from any HE round would punch through modern personal armor, but this is because the only calibers that are practical to use explosives in are already big enough and have enough energy to pierce armor as it is.

However, you could expect the armor to protect from the shrapnel of an HE round just fine. It'd have to be a direct hit.


Except the unobtanium is so widespread in their galaxy that chairs, cups, and freaking starship hulls.

But you pointed out that not all of it would be of the same quality in another thread. Skirm has a point here, I think. Besides, there's no knowing if any metal the SW guys have would outperform what we have access to. A lot goes into making a good bullet. Just because durasteel or what have you makes decent armor doesn't mean it wouldn't be an utter flop as a projectile.

#23 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:40 AM

Because a .50 cal round is capable of piercing a hardened steel armor plate that is about 1" thick from over 100 yards away, and their armor much thinner than that. And because certain .50 cal rounds (generally the "favorite" of the military) are capable of piercing 11mm of solid rolled homogeneous armor, the same stuff they put on armored vehicles. I have trouble believing stormtrooper armor is equivalent to that. Besides, the momentum and kinetic energy alone would probably do the job.


Lightsabers, from Young Jedi Knights:
"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."

No modern day weapon has the momentum or kinetic energy to pick a man off his feet and slam him into a nearby wall. Note also that the armor wasn't penetrated, it had a "nick".

Err, depends on the caliber more than specialty stuff like that. Incendiary rounds, yes. The ballistic fibers as well as any hard armor inserts are both flame-resistant. And there aren't any true high-explosive rounds until you get to .50 BMG. So a direct hit from any HE round would punch through modern personal armor, but this is because the only calibers that are practical to use explosives in are already big enough and have enough energy to pierce armor as it is.

However, you could expect the armor to protect from the shrapnel of an HE round just fine. It'd have to be a direct hit.


Right, and Skir's own words:
"a Normal pistol could do that too...

Not only that, but the same effect of a Smoldering bullet wound could easily be caused by a .50 Deagal with Incendiary rounds.

As for the Smoldering hole in the wall, true it is a good feat, but I would think that a large Rifle with Incendiary or HE rounds could pull off something similar."

So, he's saying that the E-11's bolts and their effects are comparable to either a .50 Deagle with incendiary rounds, or a large rifle with incendiary or HE rounds. Which is why I asked him if he still says modern armor (or modern soldiers wearing that armor) can survive and still fight after being hit with a round that he just described as being comparable to those things.

But you pointed out that not all of it would be of the same quality in another thread. Skirm has a point here, I think. Besides, there's no knowing if any metal the SW guys have would outperform what we have access to. A lot goes into making a good bullet. Just because durasteel or what have you makes decent armor doesn't mean it wouldn't be an utter flop as a projectile.


Yes, but Skir's saying here that they probably have bullets the same as ours (based on nothing more than the props used in the movies), with probably the same materials. I'm saying that we know they have access to far superior materials, to such an extent that one of those materials is used in chairs and in hulls for spaceships. Of course it will be off a different quality than the one used in chairs or hulls, but the point is that it would also be of a different quality than modern rounds.

#24 Jason Redfield

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 02:19 AM

Lightsabers, from Young Jedi Knights:
"Qorl stood inside the training chamber holding a wicked-looking spear in his black-wrapped left hand. His droid replacement gripped the gleaming shaft with enough force to dent the metal."
...
"He cocked his droid arm back - and hurled the deadly weapon ..."
"Norys slammed into the wall, his helmet ringing against the hard metal bulkhead. His vision sparkled with impending unconsciousness."
...
"He looked down at his chest in amazement and saw only a nick in the white armor where the spear had struck."

No modern day weapon has the momentum or kinetic energy to pick a man off his feet and slam him into a nearby wall. Note also that the armor wasn't penetrated, it had a "nick".

Yeah, but a .30-06 rifle round actually has more kinetic energy than a heavy spear. It's different physics. Modern rounds still knock people over often, even if their armor takes the impact completely. Additionally, a person wearing a Kevlar vest can take a shotgun slug without penetration. But that slug still has sufficient momentum, mass, etc. to break bones and cause internal bleeding.

And I don't necessarily interpret that quote as him actually traveling backwards through the air to hit a bulkhead. For all we know, he could have staggered backwards, his head recoiling to hit the bulkhead. Something a modern round can do.



Right, and Skir's own words:
"a Normal pistol could do that too...

Not only that, but the same effect of a Smoldering bullet wound could easily be caused by a .50 Deagal with Incendiary rounds.

As for the Smoldering hole in the wall, true it is a good feat, but I would think that a large Rifle with Incendiary or HE rounds could pull off something similar."

So, he's saying that the E-11's bolts and their effects are comparable to either a .50 Deagle with incendiary rounds, or a large rifle with incendiary or HE rounds. Which is why I asked him if he still says modern armor (or modern soldiers wearing that armor) can survive and still fight after being hit with a round that he just described as being comparable to those things.

Meh, I wasn't trying to butt in on this argument. I saw that you had asked about surviving an HE/incendiary round hit. I answered that question, giving you a data point to consider. I don't have a dog in this fight, so to speak.



Yes, but Skir's saying here that they probably have bullets the same as ours (based on nothing more than the props used in the movies), with probably the same materials. I'm saying that we know they have access to far superior materials, to such an extent that one of those materials is used in chairs and in hulls for spaceships. Of course it will be off a different quality than the one used in chairs or hulls, but the point is that it would also be of a different quality than modern rounds.


I see the point you're making, but it being a different quality from modern rounds doesn't make them better. It makes them unquantifiable for the most part, at least for our uses.

#25 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 03:01 AM

Also, I notice no love for Supreme Commander, though only because I'm currently reading about them elsewhere... what a great game.

Dude, I LOVE Supreme Commander, maybe its just me, but I get the satisfaction of completing a mission once I see the enemy commander erupt in a nuclear fashion. :huh:

I heard the second game was a bit of a let down? Tell me its not true!

#26 TheJ0ke

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 03:24 AM

Yeah, but a .30-06 rifle round actually has more kinetic energy than a heavy spear. It's different physics. Modern rounds still knock people over often, even if their armor takes the impact completely. Additionally, a person wearing a Kevlar vest can take a shotgun slug without penetration. But that slug still has sufficient momentum, mass, etc. to break bones and cause internal bleeding.

And I don't necessarily interpret that quote as him actually traveling backwards through the air to hit a bulkhead. For all we know, he could have staggered backwards, his head recoiling to hit the bulkhead. Something a modern round can do.

Certainly modern round are able to knock armored people over, perhaps even causing them to stumble backwards into a wall. However, I would hardly say that reeling backwards from said impact could be accurately described as being "slammed into the wall". Ruinus may have exaggerated when he said that the spear's impact bodily flung the man into the wall, but he has a point when he says that no modern rounds could cause the same effect.

Dude, I LOVE Supreme Commander, maybe its just me, but I get the satisfaction of completing a mission once I see the enemy commander erupt in a nuclear fashion. :huh:

I heard the second game was a bit of a let down? Tell me its not true!

Heh, leave it to JP to come up with such a post in the middle of a heated debate.

#27 sirmethos

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 03:47 AM

Certainly modern round are able to knock armored people over, perhaps even causing them to stumble backwards into a wall. However, I would hardly say that reeling backwards from said impact could be accurately described as being "slammed into the wall". Ruinus may have exaggerated when he said that the spear's impact bodily flung the man into the wall, but he has a point when he says that no modern rounds could cause the same effect.


no, he wasn't exaggerating, he was quoting directly from one of the novels. the 2nd or 3rd in the Young Jedi's series if i'm not completely mistaken.

#28 TheJ0ke

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:07 AM

no, he wasn't exaggerating, he was quoting directly from one of the novels. the 2nd or 3rd in the Young Jedi's series if i'm not completely mistaken.

Wai, wah?
I'm aware he was quoting... I never said that the quote was skewed. I wasn't questioning the reliability of the information from the book, I was questioning the interpretation. I thought that it was fairly obvious, but apparently it wasn't obvious enough. So here, I'll put it as plainly as I possibly can with all edits clearly marked:

Ruinus may have exaggerated [to some extent] when he said [in his interpretation of the quote from the [i]Young Jedi Knights[/i] book] that the [heavy metal] spear's[, whose shaft had been dented by Qorl's robotic hand, had enough force that when thrown by Qorl, its] impact [completely picked Norys up, off his feet and] bodily flung the man [Norys] into the wall, but he [Ruinus] has a point when he says that no modern rounds [bullets commonly used in modern military guns] could cause the same effect [a man to hit a wall so forcefully that it could accurately be described as a "slam"].

#29 Skirmisher

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 05:51 AM

And everyone seems to have forgotten The Battle of Maridun... where a Force of Tribal Spear Chuckers went up against a Company (Typically 80 to 225 Soldiers) of Stormtroopers, and two Juggarnauts and inflicted 90% Casualties on them...

With Spears...

Wooden Spears...

That Penetrated Through their Armour...

Not the Soft Black parts, or the gaps...

But Through the Hard White Parts.


They killed 72 to 202 Stormtroopers by Shafting them.

#30 TheJ0ke

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 09:35 AM

In an attempt to reconcile the obviously conflicting canon, I shall now devise an incredibly improbable, yet still possible, explanation...

You see, what happened on Maridun was that the Stormtroopers were being attacked by 2-3 meter tall hulking giants while running around in chaos and fear due to terrible COs. Said fear could have caused minor fluctuations in the molecular structure of some of the plastoid armor as a result of various quantum principles. The foremost of which is the uncertainty principle. Since the Amani would not have been able to directly observe where each spear landed and what it did and the Stormtroopers were too busy panicking (for the most part), the moment in which some spears made contact with soldiers may have gone completely unobserved. Thus meaning that, much like Schodinger's cat, each of these troopers was both alive and dead until observed by another and had a 50/50 chance for each. Over time, this resulted in the gradual build up of Stormtrooper casualties, despite the normally superior armor. Additionally, the Amani were using spears constructed from an unknown wood, which could possibly highly durable and tough as stone due to a variety of molecular properties and possible treatments used by the Amani. It is therefore possible that these factors all compounded to reduce the overall strength of the plastoid armor used by the Stormtroopers.
This stands in sharp contrast to the relative neutrality of Norys. His certainty is not great enough to affect the outcome, and his fear is not great enough to make him not pay attention to the spear's trajectory. As a result, the armor acts according to normal probabilities and easily deflects the heavy blow.

Note: Please do not refute my psuedo-science. In the Land of TheJ0ke, it all makes perfect sense and in fact is how that universe works in some areas. Besides which, it took me all of 2 minutes of hard thinking to come up with this explanation.

#31 force_echo

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 10:55 AM

Well, The Fact that Greedo was sizzling after he was killed only speaks to the fact that Blasters are Thermal Weapons. Of course it would burn him, it's concentrated superheated plasma, besides, a Normal pistol could do that too...

Wrong, Han's DL-44 isn't a plasma based weapon its the more common particle beam version that delivers high speed electrons as well as a laser blast.

"The more common type was the blaster that fired a high energy particle beam that was more deadly to humanoids and other biological targets than superheated plasma (which was quite deadly anyway), but it was still effective enough against droids to put a B1 battle droid down and keep it down. Particle-beam types were also more efficient because they used less blaster gas to produce the beam than is necessary to form a plasma bolt, as plasma, as a state of matter, requires a far greater amount of energy to produce."

Plus, you just refuted your own point. You said a large rifle with Incen. or HE ammo can do the same thing as a regular blaster, that means a regular blaster can punch through modern armor, or atleast cause, as Redfield said, cause internal bleeding and internal damage from the concussive force.

#32 Skirmisher

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:44 AM

Particle Beams Are Plasma you idiot.

http://en.wikipedia....eapon_(fiction)

"When discussing weapons in science fiction, a plasma weapon is a type of raygun that fires a stream, pulse or toroid of plasma...

[At present] The technology to create plasma toroids and particle beams is presently far too bulky for anything man-portable..."

Basically Particle Beams are compressed Plasma Bolts. I'm not sure why they try and differentiate them on the Wiki quote you gave, but I think that it is based on Fanon Speculation on how someone thinks they should act, or once again the Writers getting their Physics Wrong. I also like how the ENTIRE Article Section on Mechanics is unsourced, it leads Greatly to it's credibility.

Presumably some fan got upset that Blasters are described as shooting Plasma and wanted to differentiate them from Standard Plasma Weapons seen in other universes. But since they don't even fully operate as a Particle Beam Gun said fan had to compromise.

#33 Jason Redfield

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 11:59 AM

Certainly modern round are able to knock armored people over, perhaps even causing them to stumble backwards into a wall. However, I would hardly say that reeling backwards from said impact could be accurately described as being "slammed into the wall". Ruinus may have exaggerated when he said that the spear's impact bodily flung the man into the wall, but he has a point when he says that no modern rounds could cause the same effect.


I see what you mean, but I still think it's open to interpretation. A guy wearing a bulletproof vest standing in front of a wall could get shot. He stumbles back, his head recoiling to hit the wall. Later on, he could say "Yeah, but the bullet slammed me into a wall."

I'd just like to know how far the wall was behind him. Besides, this is all moot point, as even the ability to knock a Stormie over with a round would be good. And I still believe many rounds would be able to penetrate, and even if they can't, the sheer volumes of fire modern firepower can put out will eventually find the visor or body glove, particularly with SEAL marksmanship.

#34 TheJ0ke

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:08 PM

Bah! But you all seem to be forgetting the Stormtrooper Effect!

The deadliness of Stormtroopers is directly proportionate to the amount of main characters present in the opposing force subtracted by the amount of of main antagonists multiplied by 2.23 over the quotient of the amount of time elapsed since the beginning of the movie (or number of pages into the book) divided by the total possible.

Or: Ds = (P - A) (2.23/(Tc/To))

So since there are no plot crucial, named, protagonists present, the potential deadliness of the Stormtroopers is infinite! Hah! Pseudoscience wins again!

Anywho, now back to the real debate:

I see what you mean, but I still think it's open to interpretation. A guy wearing a bulletproof vest standing in front of a wall could get shot. He stumbles back, his head recoiling to hit the wall. Later on, he could say "Yeah, but bullet slammed me into the wall."

Well, I see what you mean as well. However, the thing is that the book isn't told through a first person narrator (not that there could really be any other types of narrator), its told in your typical 3rd person omniscient prose. So there is no potential for bias. If it's described that way, it's probably because it happened that way.

#35 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:46 PM

And everyone seems to have forgotten The Battle of Maridun... where a Force of Tribal Spear Chuckers went up against a Company (Typically 80 to 225 Soldiers) of Stormtroopers, and two Juggarnauts and inflicted 90% Casualties on them...

With Spears...

Wooden Spears...

That Penetrated Through their Armour...

Not the Soft Black parts, or the gaps...

But Through the Hard White Parts.


They killed 72 to 202 Stormtroopers by Shafting them.


And as I said, it's outright contradicted by the book. Either the Amanin killed Stormtroopers in another way (for instance, the spears hit necks and snapped them, or hit the black body glove) thus removing the contradiction, or the comic is overshowing the extent of the casualties due to spears and not showing the ones due to stolen blasters. Etc.

I mean, it's not like it hasn't happened before. The cartoon Clone Wars series has a bunch of things in the Battle of Coruscant that simply could not have happened, and there are several conflicting statements about the lenght of the battle (hour, day and one week).

#36 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:49 PM

Dude, I LOVE Supreme Commander, maybe its just me, but I get the satisfaction of completing a mission once I see the enemy commander erupt in a nuclear fashion. :huh:


Oh yeah, I love that too. I love how it's a game that's almost completely different than other RTSs. In those, static defenses are just there to annoy the enemy, the real strenght is in the units. In SupCom, it's the otherway around, the units are there to annoy you while you build defenses that can shoot all the way across the map. It's like EXTREME turtle-ing (sp?)!

I heard the second game was a bit of a let down? Tell me its not true!


I dunno, I haven't played it. Where did you hear this? Just look up some reviews or something.

#37 force_echo

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:21 PM

Particle Beams Are Plasma you idiot.

http://en.wikipedia....eapon_(fiction)

"When discussing weapons in science fiction, a plasma weapon is a type of raygun that fires a stream, pulse or toroid of plasma...

[At present] The technology to create plasma toroids and particle beams is presently far too bulky for anything man-portable..."

Basically Particle Beams are compressed Plasma Bolts. I'm not sure why they try and differentiate them on the Wiki quote you gave, but I think that it is based on Fanon Speculation on how someone thinks they should act, or once again the Writers getting their Physics Wrong. I also like how the ENTIRE Article Section on Mechanics is unsourced, it leads Greatly to it's credibility.

Presumably some fan got upset that Blasters are described as shooting Plasma and wanted to differentiate them from Standard Plasma Weapons seen in other universes. But since they don't even fully operate as a Particle Beam Gun said fan had to compromise.

You're a freaking retard. Plasma is an energized gas containing some charged particles in the mix, its an electrically conductive gas. Thats all. The atoms don't even free up until its heated, heated more and the electrons fly away and it becomes all charged particles, but its still a gas. All particle beams are purely charged subatomic particles, if you were to shoot a particle beam you would shoot pure electrons at someone, not superheated charged particles like plasma. Ignorant asses these days.

#38 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:33 PM

Oh yeah, I love that too. I love how it's a game that's almost completely different than other RTSs. In those, static defenses are just there to annoy the enemy, the real strenght is in the units. In SupCom, it's the otherway around, the units are there to annoy you while you build defenses that can shoot all the way across the map. It's like EXTREME turtle-ing (sp?)!



I dunno, I haven't played it. Where did you hear this? Just look up some reviews or something.

Exactly, that's why its my favorite RTS game out of all the others I've played.

I read game reviews in my Playstation and Gamestop magazines. They said it deviated from the unique style of the original Supreme Commander and brought it down. But other than that, it was somewhat okay...

#39 Jason Redfield

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:35 PM

Well, I see what you mean as well. However, the thing is that the book isn't told through a first person narrator (not that there could really be any other types of narrator), its told in your typical 3rd person omniscient prose. So there is no potential for bias. If it's described that way, it's probably because it happened that way.


True, but it could just be poor word choice by the author. It all comes down to interpretation and semantics, IMO. But I accept your point.

#40 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:48 PM

Basically Particle Beams are compressed Plasma Bolts. I'm not sure why they try and differentiate them on the Wiki quote you gave, but I think that it is based on Fanon Speculation on how someone thinks they should act, or once again the Writers getting their Physics Wrong. I also like how the ENTIRE Article Section on Mechanics is unsourced, it leads Greatly to it's credibility.

Presumably some fan got upset that Blasters are described as shooting Plasma and wanted to differentiate them from Standard Plasma Weapons seen in other universes. But since they don't even fully operate as a Particle Beam Gun said fan had to compromise.


Actually, I'm pretty sure my Star Wars: Visual Dictionary says exactly the same thing. It really doesn't matter though, becuase blasters are funky, and don't have any characteristics shared by other weapons in sci-fi anyways. Whenever I read tech discussions on how a blaster weapon works I always assume that's what's going on inside the blaster, but none of that laser or gas actually comes out as the bolt.

For instance, they have recoil, sothe bolts must have mass, yet they never arc in atmosphere, they go faster the further out they must travel, etc etc. They are wierd.




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