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Group of fictional armies vs modern day NAVY Seals


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#1 ricrery

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 06:16 PM

If 100 Stormtroopers, Alliance soldiers, Imperial Guardsmen, UNSC marines, and Red Shirts faced off against 100 NAVY Seals in combat, who would win against the Seals, and who would lose against the Seals?

These are separate battles, consisting of 100 fictional soldiers from one side, and 100 Navy Seals on the other.

#2 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 08:26 PM

seal ftw

#3 corvette1710

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:17 PM

SEALs win because the other ones are on pieces of paper :huh: Lol. For real:
Stormtroopers- Depends on status- regular or elites regulars lose, elites are close.
Alliance- No vote. I don't know anything about them, or the other three. Sorry :/

#4 Skirmisher

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 09:32 PM

Ok, I was talking with Sir Methos on chat about this.


Imperial Guardsmen are the top dogs here.

Their "Flak Armour" is made of what looks to be Thick Plates of Ceramic Armour. This is what gives them protection from weapons that seem to reduce people to chunky salsa in a single hit. They also have the Best Weapons, in the Las Rifle. A Single shot at regular power at optimal range is enough to explosively evaporate large chunks of people, being able to explode heads, take whole shoulders off, or even cut people in two. Unfortunately that's where the Standards get fuzzy... Training and Doctrine vary considerably from Regiment to Regiment.

Next on the Power Scale are the UNSC Marines. They receive vigorous training like any Marine, and also use a combination of the Super Metal Titanium-A and Super Hard Ceramics as Body Armour. Not only that but they use weapons that are Much Better than Modern weapons, using hardened metals for their bullets, firing them faster and generally using Larger calibers. Their Better Armour and Weapons makes up for their Training disadvantage against the Seals.

Next on the Power Scale are the Navy Seals. The Cream of the Crop for Marine Forces. I would put them on Par with the UNSC Marines, almost, due to their Extensive Training, and Determination. However better firepower and armour allow the Marines to pull ahead slightly. These soldiers are still the best of the best we have today though.

Next on the Power Scale are the Imperial Elite, the Stormtroopers. They too would be fairly close to the Seals, as the two organizations are the Cream of the Crop for both Militarizes. They also have fairly good Armour and Weapons too. But what lands them under the Seals is the fact that, all the Above Mentioned units negate Plastoid Armour. As well, all the Above could tank at least one Blaster Bolt with their armour. Ceramic inserts for Seals, and the Ceramic based armour of the Marines and Guardsmen are Very Good at defeating Thermal Weapons, making them effective against Blasters. I'm not saying that they would effortlessly tank shot after shot, but tanking even one shot puts them above the fact that Stormtroopers couldn't tank even one bullet.

Next up is the Alliance Soldiers, I assume these are the Rebel Alliance, and that's why I've put them here. It's common sense, since the Rebel Alliance Soldiers usually can't stand toe to toe with Stormtroopers.

Last on the List are the Red Shirts... even though they have Really Good weapons that can disintegrate targets at the right setting, they seemed to have drawn the short end of the stick for Ability and Intelligence. Always the first in and first to die they can't seem to catch a break. It seems that they pick the dumbest and slowest members of Star Fleet for this job, and I guess it makes sense... because if they were smarter or had better abilities then they wouldn't be Red Shirts.

#5 ricrery

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 10:52 PM

Ok, I was talking with Sir Methos on chat about this.

Imperial Guardsmen are the top dogs here.

A Single shot at regular power at optimal range is enough to explosively evaporate large chunks of people, being able to explode heads, take whole shoulders off, or even cut people in two. Unfortunately that's where the Standards get fuzzy... Training and Doctrine vary considerably from Regiment to Regiment.


Actually, no. Normal power seems anything put megajoule, or even multi-kilojoule yield. Gaunts Ghosts novels are a good example of this (people surviving direct las-hits without much damage). Higher outputs are much more powerful, however.

The older man smiled at Gaunt. He began to say something.

The wall behind him exploded in a firestorm of light and vaporising bricks. Two fierce blue beams of las fire punched into the room and sliced the man into three distinct sections before he could move.


I don't suppose they even knew what hit them: suddenly struck by the concentrated fire of a couple of score of lasguns, not to mention the unrelenting hail of heavy bolter fire, there was nothing much left of them apart from some unpleasant stains on the snow within seconds. Sulla ambled over to inspect the mess, and spat a small gobbet of ice on it.


There were 10 Orks in total here. The average Ork is 200-400 kilograms, so let's go with 200 kg for a lower limit. I believe 3 of those Orks were killed prior, so instead of 10, we'll use 7 Orks. There were also 3 or so squads I believe, or maybe 30 soldiers there. Assuming that they're 70% water and that the lasguns did half the damage over 5 seconds of firing, we get 7.4 megajoules from this scene.

Next on the Power Scale are the UNSC Marines. They receive vigorous training like any Marine, and also use a combination of the Super Metal Titanium-A and Super Hard Ceramics as Body Armour. Not only that but they use weapons that are Much Better than Modern weapons, using hardened metals for their bullets, firing them faster and generally using Larger calibers. Their Better Armour and Weapons makes up for their Training disadvantage against the Seals.


I wouldn't say they were much better, but better.

#6 ricrery

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 10:54 PM

Next on the Power Scale are the Imperial Elite, the Stormtroopers. They too would be fairly close to the Seals, as the two organizations are the Cream of the Crop for both Militarizes. They also have fairly good Armour and Weapons too. But what lands them under the Seals is the fact that, all the Above Mentioned units negate Plastoid Armour. As well, all the Above could tank at least one Blaster Bolt with their armour. Ceramic inserts for Seals, and the Ceramic based armour of the Marines and Guardsmen are Very Good at defeating Thermal Weapons, making them effective against Blasters. I'm not saying that they would effortlessly tank shot after shot, but tanking even one shot puts them above the fact that Stormtroopers couldn't tank even one bullet.


This is where I start disagreeing. Storm Troopers have probably the best weapons and armor on the list. Some examples of their firepower include when Han shot Greedo, creating a cloud of vapor above him, and the Tatooine escape scene, and a scene in the DSI where there is a grape sized fruit hole visible caused by blasters. In RotJ, these same blasters don't even do any damage to Stormtrooper armor (cept knock them out, but that's not the same). The Storm Troopers have armor that won't crack or dent to rocks impacting, mammals throwing them, or even nearby explosions. If anything, Stormtroopers take this, quite easily.

Next up is the Alliance Soldiers, I assume these are the Rebel Alliance, and that's why I've put them here. It's common sense, since the Rebel Alliance Soldiers usually can't stand toe to toe with Stormtroopers.


No, I meant System Alliance soldiers.

Last on the List are the Red Shirts... even though they have Really Good weapons that can disintegrate targets at the right setting, they seemed to have drawn the short end of the stick for Ability and Intelligence. Always the first in and first to die they can't seem to catch a break. It seems that they pick the dumbest and slowest members of Star Fleet for this job, and I guess it makes sense... because if they were smarter or had better abilities then they wouldn't be Red Shirts.


Agreed.

#7 Skirmisher

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 11:22 PM

This is where I start disagreeing. Storm Troopers have probably the best weapons and armor on the list. Some examples of their firepower include when Han shot Greedo, creating a cloud of vapor above him, and the Tatooine escape scene, and a scene in the DSI where there is a grape sized fruit hole visible caused by blasters. In RotJ, these same blasters don't even do any damage to Stormtrooper armor (cept knock them out, but that's not the same). The Storm Troopers have armor that won't crack or dent to rocks impacting, mammals throwing them, or even nearby explosions. If anything, Stormtroopers take this, quite easily.

Except that their Armour doesn't protect from AP or Large Caliber rounds... To me that makes me think of armour equivalent to 1/2 to 2/3 inch ballistics grade Steel Armour. Other showings seem to back this up too, like getting hit with a Metal Rod, thrown at high speed, but failing to stop Hardened Spears.

That same level of protection would protect them against all the things that they have said they are rated against, such as Fragmentation and Light Civilian rated ammo, as well as protection from impacts from Hand to Hand combat.

What makes Plastoid better than Steel though is that it offers the same protection while being thinner and much lighter.

But Most military rounds would just sail right through it... it might stop Pistols and SMG's but Rifles, Assault Rifles, Shotguns at close range, Machine Guns, etc. will penetrate with ease.


As for the Weapons. Blasters aren't That good, they seem rather on par to modern weapons offering a slight increase in Power but lacking Speed and Stealth.

A Good Seal would attack from cover and concealment, and he might even have Flash and Sound suppression, making locating him extremely difficult. However you can't do that with a Blaster, as far as I know there is no way to suppress the sound they make, and there is no way to suppress or conceal the Very Bright Bolt of energy.

That said, I still think that the Ceramic Inserts in Standard Interceptor Body armour could easily withstand a Blaster Bolt and allow the Soldier to keep on fighting, it might knock him down, but he could immediately get back up and fight.

Compare this to a Stormtrooper, and you can see that Stormtroopers would get mulched by the Seals.


No, I meant System Alliance soldiers.

Ok, I'll work on them later, but I think they would probably fit in above Marines but lower than the Guardsmen.

#8 ricrery

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 11:35 PM

Except that their Armour doesn't protect from AP or Large Caliber rounds...


When is this?

To me that makes me think of armour equivalent to 1/2 to 2/3 inch ballistics grade Steel Armour. Other showings seem to back this up too, like getting hit with a Metal Rod, thrown at high speed, but failing to stop Hardened Spears.


When have they ever been shown fighting against any spear or arrow that punctured the white part of their armor?

As for the Weapons. Blasters aren't That good, they seem rather on par to modern weapons offering a slight increase in Power but lacking Speed and Stealth.


Oh? When was the last time modern day weapons ever do this?


Posted Image

Posted Image

Even with all of this, they can't leave visible damage on Storm Trooper armor.

#9 Skirmisher

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:11 AM

When is this?

Specifically stated in their Manual. Oversized rounds and Armour Piercing ammo defeats Stormtrooper armour.


When have they ever been shown fighting against any spear or arrow that punctured the white part of their armor?

The Battle of Maridun


A Company of Stormtroopers and some Juggernauts were attacked by Native Tribal Warriors on the Planet of Maridun. They suffered 90% Casualties and lost both Juggernauts.

These Native Tribal Warriors only weapon was the Spear, and spear the Troopers they did, as denoted in This picture.

Posted Image
Note the Stormtrooper with the Spear in his back, he's on the right side.


Oh? When was the last time modern day weapons ever do this?

Snip

Even with all of this, they can't leave visible damage on Storm Trooper armor.

Well, The Fact that Greedo was sizzling after he was killed only speaks to the fact that Blasters are Thermal Weapons. Of course it would burn him, it's concentrated superheated plasma, besides, a Normal pistol could do that too...

Han Solo's weapon is a specially customized model from what I've heard. It makes sense, because apparently he only gets 6 shots out of it, which is odd for Blasters and their greater capacity for holding ammo (Compressed Gas and Energy) so, he could easily have Overcharged his bolts. Not only that, but the same effect of a Smoldering bullet wound could easily be caused by a .50 Deagal with Incendiary rounds.

As for the Smoldering hole in the wall, true it is a good feat, but I would think that a large Rifle with Incendiary or HE rounds could pull off something similar.

#10 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:11 AM

Except that their Armour doesn't protect from AP or Large Caliber rounds... To me that makes me think of armour equivalent to 1/2 to 2/3 inch ballistics grade Steel Armour. Other showings seem to back this up too, like getting hit with a Metal Rod, thrown at high speed, but failing to stop Hardened Spears.


Mind, we don't know what is considered armor piercing in Star Wars, or what is considered large caliber rounds.

Posted Image

Hilarious sniper rifle. Or at least a model of one.

Also, note the shitstorm that comes up when people say the Endor spears actually peneratrated armor, they are shown hitting one scout, and even then, it simply hits his back. Plus, I've already posted that one quote several times.

Also, Lasers:
Some types of sniper rifles fired invisible bolts of energy by using a special type of blaster gas.

BTW, my money is on the SEALs winning against the UNSC marines and the Red Shirts, but losing against everyone else.

#11 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:21 AM

Specifically stated in their Manual. Oversized rounds and Armour Piercing ammo defeats Stormtrooper armour.


Of unknown make, speed, or what "oversized" is. So far, you've shown no reason to think they are at all comparable to modern weapons.

The Battle of Maridun


A Company of Stormtroopers and some Juggernauts were attacked by Native Tribal Warriors on the Planet of Maridun. They suffered 90% Casualties and lost both Juggernauts.

These Native Tribal Warriors only weapon was the Spear, and spear the Troopers they did, as denoted in This picture.


Note the Stormtrooper with the Spear in his back, he's on the right side.


I have this comic, it's pretty awesome. They all die at the end I think, and set up a Turbo tank as a weapon emplacement.

Either way, outright contradicted by that passage in Jedi Knights.

a Normal pistol could do that too...

Not only that, but the same effect of a Smoldering bullet wound could easily be caused by a .50 Deagal with Incendiary rounds.

As for the Smoldering hole in the wall, true it is a good feat, but I would think that a large Rifle with Incendiary or HE rounds could pull off something similar.


I'm a little confused here. So, normal everday blasters can be compared to large rifles or machine guns with incendiary rounds or HE rounds, and this isn't awesome?

#12 Jason Redfield

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:21 AM

I honestly do not feel like getting into the stormtrooper armor argument again. It's exasperating to say the least. However, based on what I've seen, I am of the opinion that military-grade ammunition, particularly AP rounds or close-range direct hits, could penetrate it. I'll leave it at that.


Navy SEALs aren't the best of the best you can go to, by the way. They're amazingly proficient, but we have even better forces at our disposal.

Anyways, Imperial Guardsmen win. Very few universes can stand up against Warhammer -- you could say a lot of WH40K is "overpowered" by comparison. The only way I could possibly see the SEALs winning is if they somehow manage a well-coordinated ambush, using their better training to their advantage to try and demoralize and scatter the Guardsmen. Not bloody likely, but it's their best shot.


As for the UNSC Marines... well, this is tough. There are times when Halo tech and tactics are shown to be hilariously silly. I'm going to handwave them away for the moment and assume we make them a more realistic military for their time period. Their armor would stop any rounds coming at it short of a .50 BMG or some such. They're genetically-modified, so they've got inherent physical advantages. And they've got some pretty grueling combat experience under their belt to boot. The fact that they can use a cartridge the SEALs consider to be a battle rifle/sniper rifle/medium machine gun round as a carbine caliber is pretty serious stuff.


Red Shirts get massacred. Seriously, no contest. That's what they're there for. I don't watch Star Trek, but I'm pretty sure they've never shown any level of proficiency to match SEALs. Besides, I could go on a rant all day about how a phaser is a pretty inefficient weapon. No sights, no discernible penetration of hard cover, no suppressing fire capability, etc. Plus, to my knowledge, the Red Shirts don't have any armor.

Alliance soldiers are major contenders for top dog here. I'd actually put them above UNSC Marines but slightly below the Guardsmen. Their kinetic barriers will take any modern rounds that come their way unless they get hit by sustained fire or several high-caliber shots. Explosives are marginally more useful. They have genetic enhancements. Their weapons are also more efficient, but not necessarily levels of magnitude more powerful, than modern weapons. Their training doesn't seem to be quite as extensive, but based on what I've seen it's about on par with a modern US Marine.

Like I said, this gets more interesting with other modern US forces than SEALs.

#13 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:23 AM

Oh, BTW, now that I think about it, the Alliance soldiers could probably mess up the SEALs the most, by knocking out their communications (with their tech bombs), and also cause some hell with their Biotics. That, and their shields would be pretty sweet against modern guns.

#14 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:37 AM

Also, I notice no love for Supreme Commander, though only because I'm currently reading about them elsewhere... what a great game.

#15 Skirmisher

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:39 AM

Actually Ruinus, the definition of Caliber of rounds should be exactly the same as our own. Since they used Replica firearms for all their guns, including the few slugthrowers we've seen, then it stands to reason that our Caliber = Their Caliber, and that our Oversized .50 caliber is their "oversized" caliber.

So I would think that .50 Deagles and such could easily penetrate Stormtrooper armour.

As well, It would be probable that similar materials would be used to construct Slugs... It is probable that they called their bullets Slugs because they looked like a slug of metal after use? Or that Lead is malleable and is the "Slug" of Metal. Presumably they never developed their Slugthrowers much past this point, instead opting out for Blasters.

I would think that AP for them is AP for us too. And if a .50 cal round can penetrate their armour, then it's not much to assume that standard Depleted Uranium, Tungsten, or Steel rounds could penetrate their Armour.

#16 Jason Redfield

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:45 AM

Also, I notice no love for Supreme Commander, though only because I'm currently reading about them elsewhere... what a great game.


I've learned on Space Battles that Supreme Commander forces can stomp many others, particularly modern earth. Their air units alone require kiloton-level blasts to take down or something.

#17 ricrery

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:48 AM

Well, The Fact that Greedo was sizzling after he was killed only speaks to the fact that Blasters are Thermal Weapons. Of course it would burn him, it's concentrated superheated plasma, besides, a Normal pistol could do that too...


1) Yet if it was a few kilojoules (well within Seal weaponry yields), then there would be burns, maybe even boiled skin, but not a cloud of vapor, no.

2) It is actually a particle weapon.

As for the Smoldering hole in the wall, true it is a good feat, but I would think that a large Rifle with Incendiary or HE rounds could pull off something similar.


And when have large rifles ever created grape fruit sized holes in industrial metals? That one instance is probably a megajoule+ feat, which is more than enough than to kill Seal soldiers, no matter their gear.

#18 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:51 AM

Actually Ruinus, the definition of Caliber of rounds should be exactly the same as our own. Since they used Replica firearms for all their guns, including the few slugthrowers we've seen, then it stands to reason that our Caliber = Their Caliber, and that our Oversized .50 caliber is their "oversized" caliber. So I would think that .50 Deagles and such could easily penetrate Stormtrooper armour.


Out of Universe explanation, not acceptable. By the same argument those same replica guns shoot out energy bolts in the movies... so I guess the replicas do too?

As well, It would be probable that similar materials would be used to construct Slugs... It is probable that they called their bullets Slugs because they looked like a slug of metal after use? Or that Lead is malleable and is the "Slug" of Metal. Presumably they never developed their Slugthrowers much past this point, instead opting out for Blasters.


Also out of universe, and conjecture. No foundation in the actual setting. Besides that, why woudl they use normal metals or modern day materials when they a hve access to superior ones?

I would think that AP for them is AP for us too. And if a .50 cal round can penetrate their armour, then it's not much to assume that standard Depleted Uranium, Tungsten, or Steel rounds could penetrate their Armour.


Why would a .50 cal round penetrate their armor?

BTW, modern armor takes HE or incendiary rounds? Peoplel wearing such armor can survive this?

#19 Ruinus

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 12:53 AM

I've learned on Space Battles that Supreme Commander forces can stomp many others, particularly modern earth. Their air units alone require kiloton-level blasts to take down or something.


I know, which is why I love it. Especially since the game mechanics are canon in that setting, so building the Marine, a giant 7 meter robot with twin rail machineguns that runs as fast as a sports car actually does take 5 seconds to build. And it's the standard grunt.

Goddam, love that setting.

#20 Skirmisher

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 01:07 AM

Out of Universe explanation, not acceptable. By the same argument those same replica guns shoot out energy bolts in the movies... so I guess the replicas do too?

What?

That argument is utter bullshit and you know it.

Their guns = our guns, because the props they used for their guns = our guns. That said they look EXACTLY LIKE OUR GUNS AND HAVE SIMILAR SIZED BARRELS. What does this mean? They have the Same sizes of Caliber as our guns.


Also out of universe, and conjecture. No foundation in the actual setting. Besides that, why woudl they use normal metals or modern day materials when they a hve access to superior ones?

Price and production. Why use super metals to make bullets for a gun, when you could use a Blaster.

Why use a Unobtanium Bullet when out in the boonies you're only real target most of the time will be a womprat?


Why would a .50 cal round penetrate their armor?

Yes, because that would be Oversized to them because it's oversized to us and our guns = their guns, at least in Caliber.


BTW, modern armor takes HE or incendiary rounds? Peoplel wearing such armor can survive this?

IDK? It's nonstandard ammo, there are some types for assault rifles, but I've never seen them in action.




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