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#41 sirmethos

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 05:18 PM

Yes, Magneto is a serious powerhouse, we all know that. Has anyone read the Marvel Zombies series? Magneto took them all on in an abandoned city. The man was throwing everybody around. He's his team's biggest threat.

Having said that, I'd still put Thor over him. Mags can't lift that thing due to the magical enchantment, and he can't match him in speed or brute strength. Yes, he has tons of raw energy, but so does Thor. It'd be a good fight, but I'd put Thor over him every day.

Note: If we're using Magneto's electron manipulating power level, then it's only fair we upgrade some Avengers. Odin Force Thor? Classic Dr. Strange?



Magneto's "electron manipulating power level", as you put it, is part of his original powers, as i have already stated. his Original power was the ability to manipulate electro-magnetism.


I see, but could Magneto have the potential to do that?



Magneto definitely has the potential, yes.

Joseph was only different than Magneto because of the 'flaw' in his creation.


it has been stated that all Mutants have a 'built-in' safety measure, that prevents them from overloading their powers, so they don't kill themselves.

Joseph does not have that 'safety measure', thus he was able to reverse Magneto's manipulation of the earths magnetic field, but by doing that he destroyed his own body and became a part of the magnetic field, his mind getting overwhelmed(and presumed destroyed) by the power of the field.

#42 Stranglehold-prime

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 05:58 PM

Magneto's "electron manipulating power level", as you put it, is part of his original powers, as i have already stated. his Original power was the ability to manipulate electro-magnetism.





Magneto definitely has the potential, yes.

Joseph was only different than Magneto because of the 'flaw' in his creation.


it has been stated that all Mutants have a 'built-in' safety measure, that prevents them from overloading their powers, so they don't kill themselves.

Joseph does not have that 'safety measure', thus he was able to reverse Magneto's manipulation of the earths magnetic field, but by doing that he destroyed his own body and became a part of the magnetic field, his mind getting overwhelmed(and presumed destroyed) by the power of the field.


Hmmm thanks for the info, so he can pull it off.

One more thing, does Magneto have enough force and focus to stop Thors hammer?

#43 force_echo

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 04:26 PM

Go to your physics teacher and tell him to teach you about metals and how they have constant electron flow because the atoms are close together, and this is what gives them their electrical conductivity. You need to go back to your physics teacher and have him explain to you ALOT of things, as that seismic plate debate showed. The fact that they share an electric feild makes it harder to manipulate. Also, you are assuming that manipulating basic electromagnetic forces and manipulating things at the atomic structure are the same thing. Sorry break it to you, but disengaging protons and electrons from their natural subatomic charges is a lot harder than lifting a peice of metal. Plus there's the fact that the magnetic feild prevents Magneto from altering Iron Man's armor directly AT ALL. To gain access to his molecular structure Magneto would have to get past the ocsillating anti magnetic field first, and with like 3 other high powered avengers breathing down his back, doing so will get him killed.

#44 sirmethos

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 05:24 PM

Go to your physics teacher and tell him to teach you about metals and how they have constant electron flow because the atoms are close together, and this is what gives them their electrical conductivity. You need to go back to your physics teacher and have him explain to you ALOT of things, as that seismic plate debate showed. The fact that they share an electric feild makes it harder to manipulate. Also, you are assuming that manipulating basic electromagnetic forces and manipulating things at the atomic structure are the same thing. Sorry break it to you, but disengaging protons and electrons from their natural subatomic charges is a lot harder than lifting a peice of metal. Plus there's the fact that the magnetic feild prevents Magneto from altering Iron Man's armor directly AT ALL. To gain access to his molecular structure Magneto would have to get past the ocsillating anti magnetic field first, and with like 3 other high powered avengers breathing down his back, doing so will get him killed.



from looking at your post(quoted above), i can only repeat what i've already said. come back and rejoin the debate after you've yelled at your physics teacher.

because, while it's obvious that you are more than capable of looking up various websites with scientific knowledge. you are clearly unable to actually understand the information on said websites.


next time you are looking at the mentioned websites, try searching for Electro-Magnetism, what it actually does in the atomic structure, and the effects on the electro-magnetic bonds when several atoms are put together to form actual molecules.

or better yet, find one of the physics teachers on your school(someone other than your regular one) and have them sit down and explain it to you in simple terms and small words.




as for the tectonic plates debates, as i've already said more than once, the total weight of the tectonic plates is Massive, there is no doubt about that. however, since they are floating on Magma, a very thick fluid at a temperature of somewhere between 1000 and 3000 degrees Celsius, the Hulk is only actually Pulling, a small part of that weight.

there is no doubt that it is an impressive feat. it is, however, not quite as impressive as people make it out to be.

#45 force_echo

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 06:07 PM

from looking at your post(quoted above), i can only repeat what i've already said. come back and rejoin the debate after you've yelled at your physics teacher.

because, while it's obvious that you are more than capable of looking up various websites with scientific knowledge. you are clearly unable to actually understand the information on said websites.


next time you are looking at the mentioned websites, try searching for Electro-Magnetism, what it actually does in the atomic structure, and the effects on the electro-magnetic bonds when several atoms are put together to form actual molecules.

or better yet, find one of the physics teachers on your school(someone other than your regular one) and have them sit down and explain it to you in simple terms and small words.




as for the tectonic plates debates, as i've already said more than once, the total weight of the tectonic plates is Massive, there is no doubt about that. however, since they are floating on Magma, a very thick fluid at a temperature of somewhere between 1000 and 3000 degrees Celsius, the Hulk is only actually Pulling, a small part of that weight.

there is no doubt that it is an impressive feat. it is, however, not quite as impressive as people make it out to be.

Ah, insults but no info. Just the way idiots are meant to debate.

#46 sirmethos

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 07:08 PM

Ah, insults but no info. Just the way idiots are meant to debate.


not insults. i was actually trying to help you.

once you actually sit down with a physics teacher and have him/her explain some things to you, you'll have a better understanding of how things work, and you will be a better debater.

everyone can look at wiki or other websites, but reading them is not the same as understanding them.


my brother has some bookmarks to sites with quantum physics that i can't even begin to understand, but i can Read them just fine.


there's nothing wrong with understanding your own limitations, and trying to fix them. but if you want to continue making yourself look ignorant, then that's your choice -shrug-



since you ask for information, here it is:

Electro-Magnetism is the force that keeps Protons and Electrons together.

the Electro-Magnetic bonds holding the Electrons to the Protons switch to allow Electrons to move to other atoms when atoms are put together in molecules.

the strength of the Electro-Magnetic bonds remain the same, even when the bond is switched to allow Electrons to move to other atoms.



Iron Man is protected from direct, large scale, magnetic manipulation of his armor.

Thank you for ignoring my post. Iron Man has an antimagnetic field in his armor.

Posted Image

You have to zoom the pic to see the dialogue, but Magneto's magnetism powers do not affect Tony.


according to the scan the armor is has simply been De-magnetized. this is not "an antimagnetic field", it is a small change in the atomic structure of the armor. this, in no way, changes the electro-magnetic bonds holding the Electons and Protons together. nor does it in any way, prevent manipulation other than large scale magnetic manipulation.


Magneto controls not just Magnetism(which the armor is protected against) but Electro-Magnetism, and all forms of electro-magnetic radiation, including visible light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma rays, and x-rays. he has also been shown to manipulate gravity to a certain point. and it has been stated that as long as Magneto is in good physical condition, his powers are "for all practical purposes, limitless." - Marvel.com



all this, put together with Magneto's skills and intellect, shows that. 1. Iron Mans armor is not protected against sub-atomic manipulation, like removing the electro-magnetic bonds holding the Protons and Electrons together. 2. Magneto is more than capable of doing it in terms of both power and skills.


to repeat my bottom line: Magneto, with little more than a thought, removes the electro-magnetic bonds in Iron Mans armor, and the armor dissolves around him, leaving Tony Stark, a slightly enhanced normal human, who is little more than an annoyance in this fight.

#47 Marvel Man

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 09:09 PM

Quick question: When has Magneto ever taken someone apart by separating their electrons? I mean, theoretically, it sort of makes sense. But really? Maybe it's a lot harder than it appears...

#48 Stranglehold-prime

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 09:38 PM

X-men wins.

#49 sirmethos

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 09:57 PM

Quick question: When has Magneto ever taken someone apart by separating their electrons? I mean, theoretically, it sort of makes sense. But really? Maybe it's a lot harder than it appears...


Wolverine: Future Imperfect.

after Shinobi Shaw goes Etheral, he tells him that he is "still bound by the laws of electro-magnetism" then sends out an energy pulse that dissolves him on a sub-atomic level, same as i'm proposing that Magneto does to Iron Mans armor.

he did it to Shaw without any kind of effort.


this is the first example that springs to mind.

#50 Omega11

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 02:51 PM

Wolverine: Future Imperfect.

after Shinobi Shaw goes Etheral, he tells him that he is "still bound by the laws of electro-magnetism" then sends out an energy pulse that dissolves him on a sub-atomic level, same as i'm proposing that Magneto does to Iron Mans armor.

he did it to Shaw without any kind of effort.


this is the first example that springs to mind.


I'm not familiar with that, but it sounds like an alternate future or something. And if it is, then you can't really use that as a feat for 616 Magneto.

#51 Stranglehold-prime

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 04:51 PM

Just look at what Magneto can do.

http://media.comicvi...super_super.png
http://media.comicvi...npjk8_super.png

#52 sirmethos

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 05:47 PM

I'm not familiar with that, but it sounds like an alternate future or something. And if it is, then you can't really use that as a feat for 616 Magneto.


since Marvel has stated that he has the same powers as the 'standard' Magneto, the feat should still be applicable, since it was a feat of his Powers.

if he had taken wolverine down in a hand to hand fight, or built some kind of uber machine, then we could start talking about the feat being invalid, since those are feats of skills, and those change over the years.



for example, Magneto-AoA, has the exact same powers as Magneto-616, he is just weaker. thus, anything Mag-AoA can do with his powers, Mag-616 can do as well.

when the powers are Identical, the feat still works. as long as it is a feat that shows off his powers.

#53 force_echo

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 07:38 PM

not insults. i was actually trying to help you.

once you actually sit down with a physics teacher and have him/her explain some things to you, you'll have a better understanding of how things work, and you will be a better debater.

everyone can look at wiki or other websites, but reading them is not the same as understanding them.


my brother has some bookmarks to sites with quantum physics that i can't even begin to understand, but i can Read them just fine.


there's nothing wrong with understanding your own limitations, and trying to fix them. but if you want to continue making yourself look ignorant, then that's your choice -shrug-



since you ask for information, here it is:

Electro-Magnetism is the force that keeps Protons and Electrons together.

the Electro-Magnetic bonds holding the Electrons to the Protons switch to allow Electrons to move to other atoms when atoms are put together in molecules.

the strength of the Electro-Magnetic bonds remain the same, even when the bond is switched to allow Electrons to move to other atoms.



Iron Man is protected from direct, large scale, magnetic manipulation of his armor.



according to the scan the armor is has simply been De-magnetized. this is not "an antimagnetic field", it is a small change in the atomic structure of the armor. this, in no way, changes the electro-magnetic bonds holding the Electons and Protons together. nor does it in any way, prevent manipulation other than large scale magnetic manipulation.


Magneto controls not just Magnetism(which the armor is protected against) but Electro-Magnetism, and all forms of electro-magnetic radiation, including visible light, radio waves, ultraviolet light, gamma rays, and x-rays. he has also been shown to manipulate gravity to a certain point. and it has been stated that as long as Magneto is in good physical condition, his powers are "for all practical purposes, limitless." - Marvel.com



all this, put together with Magneto's skills and intellect, shows that. 1. Iron Mans armor is not protected against sub-atomic manipulation, like removing the electro-magnetic bonds holding the Protons and Electrons together. 2. Magneto is more than capable of doing it in terms of both power and skills.


to repeat my bottom line: Magneto, with little more than a thought, removes the electro-magnetic bonds in Iron Mans armor, and the armor dissolves around him, leaving Tony Stark, a slightly enhanced normal human, who is little more than an annoyance in this fight.

So you don't believe the fact that metals have electron flow moving between them. OK, well than take it up with whoever wrote my science book, and take it up with a teacher who studied physics at Cambrige university. I'm more inclined to believe those two sources than you, no offense. Its a fact that a metal has tightly grouped atoms with a constant interflow of electrons which give it its conductivity and strength, and that do to this, disengaging inherent charges of an atom is not as easy. You have one feat of Magneto dissoving subatomic charges, and thats far in some alternate future. The wiki nor marvel.com lists this as an inherent power, what makes you think that he could alter charges on such a minute, fine scale, and disengage everyone of the trillion upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of electrostatic atomic bonds that make up Iron Man's armor? Its obviously not that easy, as no matter what kind of magnetic force (and due to magnets located in particle accelerators we can muster up quite a bit of magnetic force) that real worl d scientists have applied to atoms today, to my knowledge we've never been able to actually disengage an electron from an atom. The only thing that will do this is a greater proclivity of atoms, as shown by chemical reactions. If we could actually do that, there would be no need for chemists as we can restructure compounds by ourselves with supermagnets. But alas, we have not been able to do this.

#54 sirmethos

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Posted 03 January 2011 - 08:26 PM

So you don't believe the fact that metals have electron flow moving between them. OK, well than take it up with whoever wrote my science book, and take it up with a teacher who studied physics at Cambrige university. I'm more inclined to believe those two sources than you, no offense. Its a fact that a metal has tightly grouped atoms with a constant interflow of electrons which give it its conductivity and strength, and that do to this, disengaging inherent charges of an atom is not as easy. You have one feat of Magneto dissoving subatomic charges, and thats far in some alternate future. The wiki nor marvel.com lists this as an inherent power, what makes you think that he could alter charges on such a minute, fine scale, and disengage everyone of the trillion upon trillions upon trillions upon trillions of electrostatic atomic bonds that make up Iron Man's armor? Its obviously not that easy, as no matter what kind of magnetic force (and due to magnets located in particle accelerators we can muster up quite a bit of magnetic force) that real worl d scientists have applied to atoms today, to my knowledge we've never been able to actually disengage an electron from an atom. The only thing that will do this is a greater proclivity of atoms, as shown by chemical reactions. If we could actually do that, there would be no need for chemists as we can restructure compounds by ourselves with supermagnets. But alas, we have not been able to do this.



try actually Reading, what i posted:

Electro-Magnetism is the force that keeps Protons and Electrons together.

the Electro-Magnetic bonds holding the Electrons to the Protons switch to allow Electrons to move to other atoms when atoms are put together in molecules.

the strength of the Electro-Magnetic bonds remain the same, even when the bond is switched to allow Electrons to move to other atoms.



yes, i am fully aware that electrons flow from atom to atom in metals, i even addressed that in my post.


if you don't understand what i post, just ask and i'll explain it in more simple terms with shorter words if that is what it takes.



as for your point about magnetic force in modern science, what we have done is provide MORE magnetic force. what magneto does is REMOVE the electro-magnetic bonds.



i'd like to repeat and underline my earlier point about the difference in Reading, and Understanding scientific material. and once again advice that you sit down with a physics teacher if you intent to continue getting into debates around this topic(or similar ones for that matter).

#55 Omega11

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 02:28 PM

since Marvel has stated that he has the same powers as the 'standard' Magneto, the feat should still be applicable, since it was a feat of his Powers.

if he had taken wolverine down in a hand to hand fight, or built some kind of uber machine, then we could start talking about the feat being invalid, since those are feats of skills, and those change over the years.



for example, Magneto-AoA, has the exact same powers as Magneto-616, he is just weaker. thus, anything Mag-AoA can do with his powers, Mag-616 can do as well.

when the powers are Identical, the feat still works. as long as it is a feat that shows off his powers.


1. As you yourself just stated, an alternate version of Magneto(while possessing the same type of powers) does not necessarily possess the same level of power that 616 Magneto does. This alternate Magneto could have had his powers boosted(even slightly) by some event that occured in his universe but not in Marvel 616(or the lack of an event that occured in Marvel 616).

2. Different universes typically produce different experiences for the people in them, this usually leads to a different outlook on many things. For example, if in an alternate universe, my family was brutally murdered before my very eyes when I was 6 years old, I would probably have grown up to be a very different person than I am today. Obviously this example is extreme, but even everyday experiences can mold how we feel and think about things. So Malterneto(yeah, that was lame...curse you Fringe!) may have had differing experiences from 616 Magneto which causes him to not only think of using his powers in that manner, but also causes him to be okay with doing it and perhaps using it as a first strike maneuver instead of a last resort, etc.

Bottom line: alternate universe feats rely on too many assumptions to be realistically applied to their mainstream counterparts.

#56 sirmethos

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 05:55 PM

1. As you yourself just stated, an alternate version of Magneto(while possessing the same type of powers) does not necessarily possess the same level of power that 616 Magneto does. This alternate Magneto could have had his powers boosted(even slightly) by some event that occured in his universe but not in Marvel 616(or the lack of an event that occured in Marvel 616).

2. Different universes typically produce different experiences for the people in them, this usually leads to a different outlook on many things. For example, if in an alternate universe, my family was brutally murdered before my very eyes when I was 6 years old, I would probably have grown up to be a very different person than I am today. Obviously this example is extreme, but even everyday experiences can mold how we feel and think about things. So Malterneto(yeah, that was lame...curse you Fringe!) may have had differing experiences from 616 Magneto which causes him to not only think of using his powers in that manner, but also causes him to be okay with doing it and perhaps using it as a first strike maneuver instead of a last resort, etc.

Bottom line: alternate universe feats rely on too many assumptions to be realistically applied to their mainstream counterparts.



the Magneto of Wolverine: Future Imperfect, has the same power level as the 616 version. infact a character in the comics comments that he(magneto) is getting old, as a reference to a drop in his powers. the same thing happened before Magneto was rejuvenated in the 616 reality, he was getting older, and weaker, then got rejuvenated and regained his full power.


while you make some good points, the main person i'm debating with is Force_Echo, who has on earlier occasions stated that he agrees with my point about alternate versions. "when the powers are Identical, the feat still works."

thus, it is a perfectly acceptable feat for showing his capabilities in this debate.



if you would like to enter the debate yourself, and say that Magneto is incapable of taking Iron Man down, then i would use other feats, but for now, i have no reason to.

#57 force_echo

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Posted 04 January 2011 - 06:58 PM

try actually Reading, what i posted:




yes, i am fully aware that electrons flow from atom to atom in metals, i even addressed that in my post.


if you don't understand what i post, just ask and i'll explain it in more simple terms with shorter words if that is what it takes.



as for your point about magnetic force in modern science, what we have done is provide MORE magnetic force. what magneto does is REMOVE the electro-magnetic bonds.



i'd like to repeat and underline my earlier point about the difference in Reading, and Understanding scientific material. and once again advice that you sit down with a physics teacher if you intent to continue getting into debates around this topic(or similar ones for that matter).

You don't understand ANYTHING. Its like debating with a *vulgarity*ing two year old. You were reffering to atom transfer in making molecules in your post, thats not nearly what I mean AT ALL. Ex. if you have a black of gold, its not a compund or molecule its just plain gold atoms. The atoms, because it is a metal are bound tightly together and the electrons consistently move between fields freely, how is Magneto going to pinpoint individual electrostatic charges when electrons are constantly flowing? More proof that you nothing about physics. Magneto can't just make electric bonds magically dissapear, there needs to be a greater electrical charge to disengage electric bonds, energy cannot be destroyed, one of the basic principles of physics. Magneto needs to apply a greater magnetic charge to disengage the magnetic charge already present, even he has to follow the laws of physics. How do you think molecules are formed? You think the bonds magically dissapear and the electrons wander over to a new atom or some shit? There is a greater charge on another atom than that on the first, so the atoms resolve it by either sharing an atom (covalent) or giving an atom (ionic). Magneto can't just dissapeate electromagnetic energy. He's not God.

#58 Dr. Pymp(mex)

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 02:11 AM

Cyclops was his most powerful when he could level a mountain. He can take a Sentinel? that was child's play.

Wolverine at his most destructive to earth would be when he has his metal claws and is his prime, (age, speed, etc.)
Wolverine at his most durable is when he has no metal. His healing was super powered, made Sabretooth's seem like Spiderman's healing is to his.

Gambit-would solo everyone including Thor imo

Rogue at her most powerful is when all her past powers come out. She would be awesome, or has it happened?

Namor is powerful, but he seems to be the Vegeta of Marvel, the tough guy who gets beat up when it counts, but still has a big mouth.
Still strong though lol

Thor should be when he is classic for said reasons by Marvel and etc.

Storm is cool if she ever did anything,

Captain would own Wolverine

Strange should not be here, he can solo everyone, but if this is recent, Cable at his medium level could send him home as a woman

Ironman is powerful/tech is great. however, even his armor has limits and that being said Storm would prove him his bane. She could fog his suit up from the inside, take his oxygen away from his lungs, and if he shoots energy she could sit there and take it hahahaha then fall and die.

he is the wild card, because Tony is a cheap tactical guy, he would send his dumb SHIELD dudes and take it over, or he would get some PIS and render everone cuffed and locked up.

Avengers lack numbers, those numbers are powerful, but if picked apart, they win.

As a leader I would see that each strategy is a timed event. So Wolverine is to be used to take out the weak ones, Hawkeye etc.. Hawkeye better take out Storm and whoever he can quick.

Magneto could just use Captain A's shield and shape it into cuffs to cuff everyone then they cannot break out. Anti gravity suit does not mean that it is not proned to reshaping due to gravity. He could just make gravity around ironman's chest be 500 times earths or something

Mag and Namor make this a great fight that will drag for 4-20 mins

#59 Omega11

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 02:14 PM

the Magneto of Wolverine: Future Imperfect, has the same power level as the 616 version.


Is there an actual quote or statement somewhere which specifically says that?

infact a character in the comics comments that he(magneto) is getting old, as a reference to a drop in his powers. the same thing happened before Magneto was rejuvenated in the 616 reality, he was getting older, and weaker, then got rejuvenated and regained his full power.


All this proves is that this alternate Magneto may not be as strong as he used to be. But that Magneto could have originally been at 200% power level of 616 Magneto, and is now only at 150%. You can't take anything for granted.

#60 force_echo

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Posted 05 January 2011 - 07:04 PM

Plus, noones refuted my analysis on how Avengers would win.




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