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#81 Ruinus

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 10:13 AM

It is a doomsday device designed to kill the Borg. It wouldn't make sense to have other settings. Second because something is destroyed by planet busting firepower doesn't mean that is what is required to destroy them.


And yet you seem to fail to apply your own reasoning to your argument. Again, where is your proof that the DoomsDay device fired on the Enterprise or the Constellation with a full powered blast? Hint: you have none because there isn't any. The DM failed to destroy both the Constellation and the Enterprise with its anti-proton beam, ships which are constantely threatened and destroyed by firepower reaching megatons, and yet simply because of this one episode (and because of what seems to be pure speculation on your part) Star Trek ships suddenly take planet busting firepower to bring down?

Also, the idea that the DoomsDay Machine is built to combat the Borg comes from one of the Star Trek books, which is non-canon.

The overload by the way was from the Constellation which had taken a beating from the Doomsday machine (far below top power for a Constellation class ship)


The Constellation was a Constitution-class ship.

Anyways a quote from The Doomsday Machine:
Kirk: Spock listen... Am I correct in assuming that a fusion explosion of 97 megatons will result if a starship's impulse engine are overloaded?

He's talking about a ship in general, not the [i]Constellation[i/] specifically.

#82 Darksaiyajin345

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 12:20 PM

Can goku shoot back if he can saiyajin saga goku can if he cant freeza saga post zenkai can tank it i think

#83 Twogunkid

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 06:42 PM

And yet you seem to fail to apply your own reasoning to your argument. Again, where is your proof that the DoomsDay device fired on the Enterprise or the Constellation with a full powered blast? Hint: you have none because there isn't any. The DM failed to destroy both the Constellation and the Enterprise with its anti-proton beam, ships which are constantely threatened and destroyed by firepower reaching megatons, and yet simply because of this one episode (and because of what seems to be pure speculation on your part) Star Trek ships suddenly take planet busting firepower to bring down?

Also, the idea that the DoomsDay Machine is built to combat the Borg comes from one of the Star Trek books, which is non-canon.



The Constellation was a Constitution-class ship.

Anyways a quote from The Doomsday Machine:
Kirk: Spock listen... Am I correct in assuming that a fusion explosion of 97 megatons will result if a starship's impulse engine are overloaded?

He's talking about a ship in general, not the [i]Constellation[i/] specifically.

Not true, the point I had was that the Doomsday machine only had one weapon left. And if it was intended to function like a doomsday machine, it would not have other settings. Second, the main power of the ship comes from the warp engines. Just to use an example in star fleet battles a constitution class ship has 4 units of impulse power to 32 from the warp engines excluding battery and emergency power. So the impulse engines are far less power than a ship has available. Second, Star Trek weapons don't go down in one hit from alien weapons it generally takes multiple. The only reason in like wrath of khan or generations the ships took such beatings, is because their shields were down. Romulan Plasma torpedoes are at least asteroid busters and it tanks hits from them. Second where is the logic in Veger having another setting? we never see any evidence of that. Likewise on the doomsday Machine.

#84 Ruinus

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Posted 14 February 2011 - 08:22 PM

Not true, the point I had was that the Doomsday machine only had one weapon left. And if it was intended to function like a doomsday machine, it would not have other settings.


Because you say so? BTW how exactly are you imagining the Doomsday Machine's anti-proton beam? Do you imagine it shatters planets like the Death Star? Because I'm imagining it like a knife that slices up parts of planets given this line:

"Captain's log, stardate 4202.1. Exceptionally heavy subspace interference still prevents our contacting Starfleet to inform them of the destroyed solar systems we have encountered. We are now entering system L-374. Science Officer Masada reports the fourth planet seems to be breaking up. We are going to investigate.

The anti-proton beam probably has to be kept on a target to do any damage. You know, seeing as how it didn't destroy either of the ships in one go.

Second, the main power of the ship comes from the warp engines. Just to use an example in star fleet battles a constitution class ship has 4 units of impulse power to 32 from the warp engines excluding battery and emergency power. So the impulse engines are far less power than a ship has available.


Ok. Let's take those numbers then:
Impluse drive = 97 megatons = 4 units.
97/4=24.25 MT per unit.
32 units at warp engine = 776 MTs.

Of course, the game is non-canon, so I don't quite know what you planned to do with this information.

Second, Star Trek weapons don't go down in one hit from alien weapons it generally takes multiple. The only reason in like wrath of khan or generations the ships took such beatings, is because their shields were down.


When did I say they were knocked out by single shots? I said that all throughout the series all the showings have been in the kiloton-megaton range (gigatons at best), and this is enough to treathen ships. What you are doing with the Doomsday Machine episode is:"Wow the DD busts planets (in some unknown manner) and it didn't destroy the Enterprise! That must mean it takes more than planet busting firepower to take it out! Ignore all the other episodes!"

Romulan Plasma torpedoes are at least asteroid busters and it tanks hits from them.


You've got no sense of scale man. Destroying asteroids can take anywhere from kiloton to gigaton yields, depending on the size of the asteroid (for instance, in The Empire Strikes Back an ISD vaporizes some asteroids,which was at least a kiloton event). Destroying asteroids takes far less energy than destroying a planet.

Second where is the logic in Veger having another setting? we never see any evidence of that. Likewise on the doomsday Machine.


Because V'ger didn't automatically one shot the Klingon vessels it fought? When the Federation space station is spying on the Klingon vessels fight V'ger you can see images from within the Klingon vessels as they are in combat, the bridge rocking back and forth, etc. Because it didn't one hit the Enterprise? Seriously, you've got some big jumps in logic here. I mean, if V'ger couldn't scan objects without having to shoot at them, how does it even travel in space without crashing into anything?

Or basically:
Why should we believe the Enterprise can take planet busting firepower if there are several videos where it is threatened by far less?

#85 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 08:21 PM

I'm not saying I'm taking ricrery's side on this (though I do doubt every single attack in DBZ is a planet buster) this argument doesn't make sense. The way arguments are made is that they must be falsifiable, they must have some way of being proven false or tested.

If the argument is "All attacks in DBZ are planet busting" and someone says "Well look at this time, they missed and the planet is still standing." You can't say "Well that they they held back!" (because of course, to hold back implies you KNEW you would miss, in which case why in the world would you miss in the first place?) but "Well, then I was wrong and not all attacks are planet busters."

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Well wouldnt their super reflexes come into play?? I mean Supes was going to deliver a blow to Black Adam that could split the moon, but he managed to hold back at the last second

#86 Ruinus

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Posted 15 February 2011 - 09:56 PM

Well wouldnt their super reflexes come into play?? I mean Supes was going to deliver a blow to Black Adam that could split the moon, but he managed to hold back at the last second


This doesn't explain all the times their energy attacks miss, hit some mountain range or ocean and the planet doesn't go up in smoke. Simply because some of the characters in DBZ can destroy planets doesn't mean that all of their attacks are planet destroying things.

After all, if every attack in DBZ was a planet destroying attack, why are people surprised when someone destroys a planet? Why are attacks which are specifically stated to destroy a planet a big deal?

Krillin: "Oh noes! Super Evil Android 911 King of Evil is charging up his lazzorx! It will destroy the whoal planetete!!!"
Goku: "So? I can do that right now, look." *punches planet* *planet blows up*

#87 Skirmisher

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:27 AM

Jumping in here

This doesn't explain all the times their energy attacks miss, hit some mountain range or ocean and the planet doesn't go up in smoke. Simply because some of the characters in DBZ can destroy planets doesn't mean that all of their attacks are planet destroying things.

Correct. Not all their Energy Attacks are Planet Busting. But Some Attacks have a Set Range of what they obliterate. Much like Thermal Detonators in Star Wars.

Miniature Nuclear Bombs that blow up with the power of several Tons of TNT, yet are confined to a relatively small volume.


After all, if every attack in DBZ was a planet destroying attack, why are people surprised when someone destroys a planet? Why are attacks which are specifically stated to destroy a planet a big deal?

Krillin: "Oh noes! Super Evil Android 911 King of Evil is charging up his lazzorx! It will destroy the whoal planetete!!!"
Goku: "So? I can do that right now, look." *punches planet* *planet blows up*

Actually they're mostly "surprised" when that happens because of a few things.

1) If someone's going to blow up the Earth, then that will kill Everyone on it... that's a few billion people.

and...

2) If someone's gonna blow up the Earth and they're on it when that happens, then that's kinda crazy suicidal.

They're more like "Oh noes! Super Evil Android 911 King of Evil is charging up his lazzorx! It will destroy the whoal planetete and kill eveyone!!!"

#88 ricrery

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:14 AM

Yet even the strongest DBZ characters like Super Buu strain to make a planet buster. When they do, the protagonists can't stop the attack. Most DBZ character use/used chain reactions to destroy planets, and only high end ones can brute force them away, and even then it takes a lot of effort from them.

#89 Skirmisher

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:57 AM

Yet even the strongest DBZ characters like Super Buu strain to make a planet buster. When they do, the protagonists can't stop the attack. Most DBZ character use/used chain reactions to destroy planets, and only high end ones can brute force them away, and even then it takes a lot of effort from them.


http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Frieza blows up Planet Vegeta... Effortlessly, while laughing, completely underpowered and in his Weakest state. Note to all the information we have on Planet Vegeta, it's Gravity is 10x that of Earth. That means that the Planet should be x10 the Mass of the Earth, which could mean that it is either 10 times the Size, 10x more dense or some combination of the two.

What does this mean? It should take significantly more energy to destroy then an Earthlike Planet, presumably 10x.

Frieza's power level in First form, full powered is 530,000

Frieza's power level as Stated in section "The Evolution of Goku's Power Level" of their supplementary books, Final form, 100% max power 120,000,000

That's a difference of 226 times.

Power Levels are basically "Battle Power" or "Fighting Strength" meaning it's a Blanket Term that covers all aspects of a fighter from Physical Strength and Speed to the abundance of Ki Energy they have at their disposal.

Assuming that Frieza was fully charged when he blew Planet Vegeta up (He wasn't) then at that level he could effortlessly able to annihilate an Earthlike planet 10 times over.

At Maximum Power, he could presumably generate a blast that could wipe out an Earthlike Planet 2260 times over.

Since then, Top Level Characters have gotten Many Thousands of times stronger then Frieza.

#90 victim36

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 12:12 PM

As skirmisher said Frieza blew up a much larger planet than Earth without even trying. By the end of the Frieza saga alone Goku and Frieza were a couple hundred times stronger than that.

By the beginning of the Android Saga, Goku is several times stronger than he was at the end of the Frieza Saga. So why does everyone have to build up so much energy to destroy the planet? Same reason DC and Marvel characters constantly get retooled and weakened. It's really hard to have a fight scene when the first attack that misses will destroy the whole planet.

If DBZ characters weren't slightly retooled every shot the Z fighters fired off would have to aim up into the sky, they would have to absorb or redirect every shot fired by a villain, and any shot that exploded in the planet's atmosphere would wipe out huge chunks of life.

So just like Superman, Darkseid, Hulk, Thor, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, or even Batman; DBZ characters were retooled so that simple blasts would not be planet busters.

Based off of early series events anyone with a power level around 18,000, Vegeta's power level when he charges up his Gatling Gun attack, would be able to destroy planets. The higher their power level the easier it is to do, as was shown when Frieza blew up Planet Vegeta. But, writers have to draw a line in order to write compelling stories and fights. Since the heroes want to save the world, and the Z fighters can't survive in space, a world busting attack is the worst thing a villain can do to them. So despite being more than capable of destroying the planet thousands of times over, Buu Saga, the standard attacks only blew up mountains or created large craters.

#91 ricrery

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:20 PM

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Frieza blows up Planet Vegeta... Effortlessly, while laughing, completely underpowered and in his Weakest state. Note to all the information we have on Planet Vegeta, it's Gravity is 10x that of Earth. That means that the Planet should be x10 the Mass of the Earth, which could mean that it is either 10 times the Size, 10x more dense or some combination of the two.


That doesn't count. The movies aren't canon, either, and we clearly see that Frieza strains to create a planet buster at 50%, and that would take minutes to destroy Namek through chain reaction.

What does this mean? It should take significantly more energy to destroy then an Earthlike Planet, presumably 10x.

Frieza's power level in First form, full powered is 530,000

Frieza's power level as Stated in section "The Evolution of Goku's Power Level" of their supplementary books, Final form, 100% max power 120,000,000

That's a difference of 226 times.

Power Levels are basically "Battle Power" or "Fighting Strength" meaning it's a Blanket Term that covers all aspects of a fighter from Physical Strength and Speed to the abundance of Ki Energy they have at their disposal.

Assuming that Frieza was fully charged when he blew Planet Vegeta up (He wasn't) then at that level he could effortlessly able to annihilate an Earthlike planet 10 times over.


No, just no. When Super Buu was fighting Vegito, he strained to create a planet buster that could "split the Earth in two", and even Vegito was intimidated and strained by such power. Your video also shows Frieza firing his energy ball right at the core, supporting that most DBZ characters need to use chain reactions to destroy planets.

At Maximum Power, he could presumably generate a blast that could wipe out an Earthlike Planet 2260 times over.


So he's stronger than Super Buu, Kid Buu, and Vegito now?

Since then, Top Level Characters have gotten Many Thousands of times stronger then Frieza.


Yet those same characters aren't having easy times destroying Earthlike planets. Remember this? They can't tank a planet buster x10, but can effortlessly throw around thousands of times that energy?

#92 ricrery

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:23 PM

*snip*


Why are people so bad at basic reading comprehension? Did the "chain reaction" part go right through your head? You clearly missed the point and have failed so hard. Oh, and you seem to be oblivious to what suspension of disbelief is, too. :ph34r:

#93 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:25 PM

FFS, I've already gone over the so called "core" shot with you.

You clearly see the Planet detonating while the visible exterior of the Supernova is still jutting out of the surface of the planet. And it is one of the few things that are canon. Ask The Technomancer of Nesh, he'll clarify it for you in simple basic comprehensive terms.

And Frieza on Namek wanted to prolong the fight with Goku, he was ensuring that Goku would die even if he lost the fight against Goku... it seems as if you're conveniently forgetting things just to be able to make a case.

#94 ricrery

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:32 PM

FFS, I've already gone over the so called "core" shot with you.

You clearly see the Planet detonating while the visible exterior of the Supernova is still jutting out of the surface of the planet


Oh? We clearly see the planet is not exploding apart until after it burrows inside it. Oh, and it's not canon either :ph34r:

And Frieza on Namek wanted to prolong the fight with Goku, he was ensuring that Goku would die even if he lost the fight against Goku... it seems as if you're conveniently forgetting things just to be able to make a case.


Your "argument" and reading comprehension are laughable. We see Frieza STRAINING to create the energy ball, yet if it was so easy to bust planets, he should have created said energy ball in two seconds with no effort.

#95 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 02:37 PM

Oh? We clearly see the planet is not exploding apart until after it burrows inside it. Oh, and it's not canon either :ph34r:



Your "argument" and reading comprehension are laughable. We see Frieza STRAINING to create the energy ball, yet if it was so easy to bust planets, he should have created said energy ball in two seconds with no effort.

Hrm: http://dragonball.wi..._Father_of_Goku

"In Dragon Ball Kai (the recut and rebroadcast version of the Dragon Ball Z), the first episode used the footage of this special (as it is rendered canon by Akira Toriyama) in the very beginning of the episode."

It is purely speculation on your part that it is a chain reaction considering several things: It detonated within moments after the ball impacted the surface of the planet before it detonated. Considering the size of it and the fact that Planet Vegeta is far bigger than Planet Earth, it is unlikely it managed to reach the core. This is speculation as well, but a far more reasonable one than yours.

No, what you can't seem to comprehend, is that Frieza had just expended energy before hand. He took a Spirit Bomb I recall. He also caused Krillin to explode, etc, before he pulled the planet shot. He was weakened, somewhat. ^_^ I also recall him performing this while he was in his 100% form and it was Goku that said that since he was pushing his body to the max, his energy was draining extremely quickly.

Not to mention, he was drawing out the planet's demise so he could fight with Goku and like I said, he was doing it to ensure that Goku would die either ways, simply because if he won the fight, he can leave the planet's surface and survive in outer space, as it detonated, and if he died, Goku would not be able to leave the planet, and thus would die either way.

#96 Hayesmeister5651

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:17 PM

This doesn't explain all the times their energy attacks miss, hit some mountain range or ocean and the planet doesn't go up in smoke. Simply because some of the characters in DBZ can destroy planets doesn't mean that all of their attacks are planet destroying things.

After all, if every attack in DBZ was a planet destroying attack, why are people surprised when someone destroys a planet? Why are attacks which are specifically stated to destroy a planet a big deal?

Krillin: "Oh noes! Super Evil Android 911 King of Evil is charging up his lazzorx! It will destroy the whoal planetete!!!"
Goku: "So? I can do that right now, look." *punches planet* *planet blows up*

I never once said all their attacks are planet busting, but some can,Gokus instant kamehameha against Cell was enough to blow up the Earth twice

#97 Skirmisher

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:34 PM

it seems as if you're conveniently forgetting things just to be able to make a case.

Rice does that alot... just look at how many threads related to Halo he made... Each time the same things were repeated, and each time Rice had forgot the sound thrashing I gave him. It only took Bungies massive FU to Microsoft that was Reach to turn it all on ear.

#98 ricrery

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:42 PM

Hrm: http://dragonball.wi..._Father_of_Goku

"In Dragon Ball Kai (the recut and rebroadcast version of the Dragon Ball Z), the first episode used the footage of this special (as it is rendered canon by Akira Toriyama) in the very beginning of the episode."


And how about you show this footage?

It is purely speculation on your part that it is a chain reaction considering several things: It detonated within moments after the ball impacted the surface of the planet before it detonated. Considering the size of it and the fact that Planet Vegeta is far bigger than Planet Earth, it is unlikely it managed to reach the core. This is speculation as well, but a far more reasonable one than yours.


You must have trouble seeing. In the video, we clearly see that the ball had punctured into the planet when the planet starting exploding. It's also funny that Frieza made it penetrate into the planet when it could have quickly mass scattered it upon impact. Why did he send it into the planet? Your speculation is laughable.

No, what you can't seem to comprehend, is that Frieza had just expended energy before hand. He took a Spirit Bomb I recall. He also caused Krillin to explode, etc, before he pulled the planet shot. He was weakened, somewhat. :ph34r: I also recall him performing this while he was in his 100% form and it was Goku that said that since he was pushing his body to the max, his energy was draining extremely quickly.


Oh, so he wasted enough energy from 60,000,000 Ki to having to strain to do something he could effortlessly do with 500,000 Ki? It seems like you fail at reading comprehension and scale.

Not to mention, he was drawing out the planet's demise so he could fight with Goku and like I said, he was doing it to ensure that Goku would die either ways, simply because if he won the fight, he can leave the planet's surface and survive in outer space, as it detonated, and if he died, Goku would not be able to leave the planet, and thus would die either way.


Oh my God, is simple reading comprehension so hard? The energy ball he created was not going to brute force the planet away, yet he still strained to make it while at half power.

#99 Jaeger Panzer

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:52 PM

And how about you show this footage?



You must have trouble seeing. In the video, we clearly see that the ball had punctured into the planet when the planet starting exploding. It's also funny that Frieza made it penetrate into the planet when it could have quickly mass scattered it upon impact. Why did he send it into the planet? Your speculation is laughable.



Oh, so he wasted enough energy from 60,000,000 Ki to having to strain to do something he could effortlessly do with 500,000 Ki? It seems like you fail at reading comprehension and scale.



Oh my God, is simple reading comprehension so hard? The energy ball he created was not going to brute force the planet away, yet he still strained to make it while at half power.

http://www.youtube.c..._LCjT6U#t=2m04s

Huh, I believe I said it was jutting out of the planet's surface, meaning, it penetrated, obviously. But, take a look at the video, if you will. You see the ball break through the atmosphere, and it is about to impact with the surface when it backs out and causes a surge of energy within these cracks, notice if you will that the energy is the same as the ball's :ph34r:, to emerge and detonate. This occurred as soon as the orb impacted with the surface. Thus, my theory of it only have breached the surface, but not penetrating all the way through and then having detonated, does hold water. I've already explained why he sent it into the surface time again and again. It seems to me that you might be the one with the reading comprehension issue that you're claiming wildly at others.

That Spirit Bomb had enough power to seriously damage Frieza. Krillin also managed to lop off the tip of his tail with his Destructo Disk. Being injured and having expended his energy beforehand, its probable that Frieza had expended a large majority of his energy. Not to mention the simple fact that Frieza was burning himself out rather quickly while in his 100% form.

Oh my god, I already explained why in the above paragraph.

Resorting to insult and repeating the same things over and over while clearly ignoring statements that would very well provide the answers to your questions (Which I've repeated several times now), is frankly getting old and childish on your part. It just goes to show you have no other, fresh contributions to this debacle other than long winded bullshit.

#100 ricrery

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Posted 16 February 2011 - 03:57 PM

Rice does that alot... just look at how many threads related to Halo he made... Each time the same things were repeated, and each time Rice had forgot the sound thrashing I gave him.


The thrashing you gave me? Ha ha. That's real funny. Because, last I checked, you merely cherry-picked evidence you wanted, stated when canon was right or wrong, used double standards, and claimed Bungie shouldn't be trusted with their own numbers.

"Oh the game contradicts the book, therefor the game is wrong because I say so"

"Oh look, Bungie's numbers contradict the book, and Bungie's numbers do not count because they can't do math because I say they can't. Book overrides their opinion."

"Bungie's math is wrong and should not be used ever, or at least, in the proper way, but their vague claim about a non-existent movie means that they support the numbers I want and not the numbers they used. What? They didn't state what they meant by "powerful"? Well, it should be obvious that they meant they can blow off heads and gut torsos with single bolts.

"What? Bungie's numbers support such things but not with single bolts? Well, they clearly meant otherwise with their vague statement about the movie because I say so!"

"What? They don't state how much canon a movie would be? Well, it's clear that they meant top canon, because there are series who have that canon system, and because I say so.

"Game mechanics are not canon, and neither are cutscenes because they use the game engine."

"What? A newer novel contradicts a statement in my older novel? Well, game mechanics support my novel, so your novel is wrong."

Yeah, I don't think you ever gave me a "thrashing".




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